The Sun and the Moon a look at the parallels, and symbolisim of Jon and Dany. Section 3 update Be like water

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This is really nice and I was working on something regarding Jon's sigil colors.

The Stark Sigil is a grey wolf on a white field of snow. Its never been formalized in the story, but as a bastard, Jon's Sigil would likely be the reverse, a white wolf on a grey field. No coincidence that his wolf is white. I think there are a few ways to interpret these color schemes:

Grey on white: The Starks are the only thing preventing the world from being covered in white (the Others). But at the same time, if white is the color of purity, then the Starks are also preventing the world from being 100% white (pure?). So are the Starks some sort of protector of balance? They make sure there are still some dark colors in a pure white world?

White on Grey: So is Jon the lone bright spot in a grey world? Or is the what permits the Others (white) to continue to exist? And what about Jon's Black Cloak? Does he have to shed it in order to realize his true identity?

I haven't though much about Drogon's colors, but what you say is true. It can't be a coincidence that Drogon is black and Ghost white and that they bond with each. In someways its a call back to Balerion the Black Dread.

The concept of a caged identity is pretty cool. So it begs the question what will happen to Ghost when Jon discovers his Targaryen lineage?

Very nice post, love this stuff.

I think it will only make him stronger. Jon is one of the very humans with Valyrian blood and BOTFM. He has the ability to warg and bond like BR or Dany due to their Blackwood heritage.

[Fox fur cloak]

This thread is amazing! I was planning to mention TWOIAF's mention of the sun hiding in a cave, but it appears I have been beat to the chase... I will elaborate: earlier it was said that the sun must be Bran, who at that point was in the cave with the COTF. But TWOIAF says this:

[Rhyonar legend:]

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhyone's many children -- lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River -- to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

[Talks about Azor Ahai]

[Yi Ti legend:]

...which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something no one could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

Both of these legends talk about the sun hiding away, which could be linked to Bran, or to Jon. The shame reminds me of Jon's shame at being a bastard. Both Dany and Jon are "hiding" from Westeros, or rather, far enough away from the main action that people in KL tend to forget about them. (And as Jon and Bran are both assumed to be dead, and Dany as well to many ignorant lords, that could be described as "hiding" as well.) The woman may be Dany, but the "monkey" part reminds me more of Tyrion.

Also, the Seasons of Love song that Tyrion sings has lyrics as follows:

I loved a maid as fair as summer

with sunlight in her hair.

I loved a maid as red as autumn

with sunset in her hair.

I loved a maid as white as winter

with moonglow in her hair.

In Tyrion's case, Tysha is the sunlight maid, and Sansa could be the sunset one. Shae is missing, but they weren't married so I suppose it doesn't follow the pattern. (Though we don't know what the maid of spring looks like.) and Dany could certainly have moonglow in her hair... (not that I think they'll marry). On the other hand, it can also refer to Jon: Ygritte is the sunset maid, while Val has moonglow in her hair.

[Loic]

Very nice thread!!!

I was planning to do something similar since I had noticed the 'relationship' between Dany and the moon, but did not with Jon.

However I realised (and correct me if I'm worng) that Jon's more tied with the idea of "dawn" while Dany's not only related to the moon, but also unrelated with "dawn" as well (Jon comes back to Castle Black at dawn etc, while in Dany's chapters dawn either comes too soon or, even better, hasn't still come).

Huge compilation, will definitely reread!

@DragonDreamer

Something else occurred to me:

Dany: "It is known"
Jon: "You know nothing"

D:

I didn't see that one, whoa

[DragonDreamer]

Very nice thread!!!

I was planning to do something similar since I had noticed the 'relationship' between Dany and the moon, but did not with Jon.

However I realised (and correct me if I'm worng) that Jon's more tied with the idea of "dawn" while Dany's not only related to the moon, but also unrelated with "dawn" as well (Jon comes back to Castle Black at dawn etc, while in Dany's chapters dawn either comes too soon or, even better, hasn't still come).

Can you write down the examples for these, I'll like to see them. They sound interesting.

@DragonDreamer

D:

I didn't see that one, whoa

It's a funny one.

Funny thing when Irri or Jhiqui say this to Dany there are a few times when Dany says "not to me". I'm thinking of the scene in Vaes Tolorro....let me go find it.

Dany 1 ACOG

Jhiqui shuddered. “When the gods are gone, the evil ghosts feast by night. Such places are best shunned. It is known.” “It is known,” Irri agreed. “Not to me.” Dany put her heels into her horse and showed them the way, trotting beneath the shattered arch of an ancient gate and down a silent street.

Dany ASOS

“Blood of my blood,” said Rakharo, “when cowards hide and burn the food and fodder, great khals must seek for braver foes. This is known.” “It is known,” Jhiqui agreed, as she poured. “Not to me.” Dany set great store by Ser Jorah’s counsel, but to leave Meereen untouched was more than she could stomach.

Hmmm, is Dany admitting to knowing nothing. (*_^)

[Ser Creighton]

 

Can you write down the examples for these, I'll like to see them. They sound interesting.

 

 

It's a funny one.

 

Funny thing when Irri or Jhiqui say this to Dany there are a few times when Dany says "not to me". I'm thinking of the scene in Vaes Tolorro....let me go find it.

 

Dany 1 ACOG

Jhiqui shuddered. “When the gods are gone, the evil ghosts feast by night. Such places are best shunned. It is known.” “It is known,” Irri agreed. “Not to me.” Dany put her heels into her horse and showed them the way, trotting beneath the shattered arch of an ancient gate and down a silent street.

 

Dany ASOS

“Blood of my blood,” said Rakharo, “when cowards hide and burn the food and fodder, great khals must seek for braver foes. This is known.” “It is known,” Jhiqui agreed, as she poured. “Not to me.” Dany set great store by Ser Jorah’s counsel, but to leave Meereen untouched was more than she could stomach.

 

Hmmm, is Dany admitting to knowing nothing. (*_^)
 

Wow it's been awhile since I looked at the old girl, those are nice catches. Okay doing a new but different kind of Parallel here today, so time to get to it.

[Ser Creighton]

Alright, it's been a long time but I got something a little different for this next parallel. This is a particular look at Sun and Moon inspirations that may relate to the series and what clues they may reveal, and I have a pretty good one. Now as mentioned in the beginning sun and moon is a very basic theme, style and philosophy. The union of opposition involving Binary polarities. We have seen this theme in the main series, the extended universe and even the World book. Examples continue to be Maiden and Lion, Ice and Fire, R+L, Sun and Moon of course, Sunfyre and Moondancer, and the something like 100 examples already listed. But what may have inspired the idea? My own belief is that it was inspired by Greek and Roman mythology which is also mentioned this thread.

 

So I want to take a look at that and show you some things that I think are really interesting. This is not about Jon and Dany, but rather Rhaegar and Dany, Jon is just guilty buy association in this one, Lyanna as well.

 

So Sun and Moon is easily tied to Helios and Selene, and also Eos (Dawn). They are siblings, yep I am looking at brothers and sisters. Though this goes a little far back but it does lead to Artemis and Apollo, and that is the focus.

 

Now you might go Apollo and Rhaegar, oh yeah that makes sense, but Artemis and Dany?????? WTF Ser Creighton has lost it. But trust me, I am going to show you why.

 

So Apollo and Rhaegar is really easy, prophetic, Harp/Lyre, music, beauty, Sun, Dragon etc... But  story wise with any of this you are not going to get the story of the gods really. But what I am looking at is why the Greek and Roman symbolism may be appearing in the books and what Martin may be hinting at. Because all of this is based off the use of symbolism, so do we get some clues? Yes I think we do, I think we get some really good clues.

 

Artemis aka Diana. Hmmm I don't want to say that all day so lets just use Dianaris. Sounds kind of like Daenerys. But is that really a good clue? Kind of shaky, but Dany and Diana is not to far off, kind of like Tyrian and Tyrion. Tyrian by the way is Royal Purple. Just sayin.

 

Anyway the first clue is of course Sun and Moon, Dany of course is heavily associated with the moon and Diana is a Moon Goddess. That is actually a decent connection, but it does not give you much.

 

Next will look at Orion, Orion was very close to Artemis kind of her one real love. He was a giant and a hunter, and his death is heavily associated with Artemis. He wore a lion pelt, and there are 2 commonly excepted versions of his story in which he died. One is that he was shot by an arrow, the other is that he was poisoned. Well Khal Drogo, Dany's one love so far in the story was associated with a lion pelt he gave to Dany and shot with an arrow and then poisoned. Artemis is actually depicted wearing a lion pelt in several ancient depictions, some say it associates her with Orion, some say it has to do with Royalty and some say both. I consider this a decent connection given the Sun and Moon symbolism that is also involved with Drogo and Dany. But now you are going to see where it gets a little interesting.

 

Sam, yep Sam. Sam begins to become an intersecting plot line in Crows when he heads off to Oldtown. Along the way he meets Arya but also finds out about Dany and the Dragons. From Braavos he boards the Cinnamon wind a ship associated with Dany going back to Clash of Kings. And why did Jon send Sam to Oldtown? He wants him to find a way  to beat the Others. So while on this ship some interesting things start to pop up.

 

On his voyage we get the Golden bows, most notably wielded by Kojja Mo a woman. Now of course Artemis/Diana is heavily associated with the Golden Bow. Then a little further along the way we get another ship? "The Huntress" on her bow a woman with a spear, and she is accompanied by two ships described as hounds. Artemis is known as the Huntress, the Spear is one of her weapons of choice along with the bow, and she is famed for always hunting with her hounds. In fact they are sacred to her, another animal sacred to Artemis is the Bear, very sacred.

 

So now we the name Diana, a husband associated with a Lions Pelt and death after being shot with an arrow and poisoned. We are adding Golden Bows, the Bear, the Huntress and hounds. For me this is very interesting.

 

When Sam arrives at Old Town he sees what? Two Sphinxes, male and female. In Greek mythology the twin Sphinxes are known as Sol and Luna, Sun and Moon.

 

Artemis is also associated with Mountains, Motherhood, Midwife, and in one story she bathes in a pool beneath a mountain at night with the moon shining down upon her.  Kind of made me think of the scene with Dany and the Mother of mountains. But not that important.

 

But basically when you get Sam on a mission to find help in fighting the Others and he finds out about Dany, and ends up on the Cinnamon wind a Ship associated with Dany and you suddenly get all this symbolism that is easily related to Artemis. Believe me, you don't just put the Huntress, Golden Bows, Hounds and twin Sphinxes on page if there is no association to Diana/Artemis. Now Dany is no Huntress, but there are what seems to be several clues relating to the Greek Goddess. So why? She had a very Apollo like brother, she has the moon symbolism, the death of Drogo, the heavy affiliation with Sun and Moon, Sams journey to find help were he finds out about Dany. I mean come on Golden Bows, Huntress, Hounds and Sol and Luna in like 5 pages, why the clue bat?

 

Well I will tell you why. Artemis/Diana is not just known as the Huntress, she had another title, a very famous title. "at three years old, Artemis, while sitting on the knee of her father, Zeus, asked him to grant her six wishes: to remain always a virgin; to have many names to set her apart from her brother Apollo; to be the Phaesporia or Light Bringer;"

 

The title Phaesporia relates to her brother Apollo, when Artemis was born before Apollo it's said that she quickly went to her mothers side to act as her Mid Wife in bringing Apollo into the World. Of course he is identified with the sun. But also according to some scholars the words are derived from the Doric word apella (ἀπέλλα), which originally meant "wall," Some also connect it to Stone, Bright, Shining, Destroy, Sun. This is also typical for Greek mythology. So Artemis helped deliver her brother and you get the relation to sun, and also her own moonlight. Now Apollo is also very heavily associated with the mouse. Do you remember what Sam was looking at when he was reading in the library?

 

The mouse may have nothing to do with anything but either way there is a lot of interesting symbolism on that journey he takes. Now Rhaegar is Dead but his "sun" is sort of alive at a place called what?

 

I don't say this is correct but I do find the symbolism being employed very interesting.