The Sun and the Moon a look at the parallels, and symbolisim of Jon and Dany. Section 3 update Be like water

[Kienn]

Good stuff OP!

Obvious - Obscure

Dany was born while an actual storm was happening outside.

Jon was born while a storm of swords was happening outside. If our assumptions are correct.

They are both Stormborn. ;)

Also ties into the name of Dalla's baby - Aemon Battleborn, with aemon as a likely name for Jon if Rhaegar had lived.

[J. Stargaryen]

Good stuff OP!

Obvious - Obscure

Dany was born while an actual storm was happening outside.

Jon was born while a storm of swords was happening outside. If our assumptions are correct.

They are both Stormborn. ;)

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

- AGoT, Eddard X (Tower of Joy)

[Veltigar]

Great idea for a thread OP.

DragonDreamer, on 16 Mar 2014 - 1:13 PM, said:

Quote

- AGoT, Eddard X (Tower of Joy)

Damn, I never noticed this before. In hindsight this seems kind of obvious.

[random girl from westeros]

Here is all the sun and stars imagery I could find in ADWD:

It seems to be a standard part of prayers for followers of the Lord of Light. The symbolism of having the sun and stars fight against the darkness sounds a lot like the AA prophecy though. So like I said, if Jon is AA that could tie him closely to any sun and stars imagery the way Dany is tied to moon imagery.

It is interesting that Dany used to call Drogo my sun and stars and you are implying that if Jon is AA there is plenty of imagiery of AA as the sun and stars.

[DragonDreamer]

Great idea for a thread OP.

Damn, I never noticed this before. In hindsight this seems kind of obvious.

Isn't it always that way? (^_*)

This isn't an obscure / obvious reference but Jon has Ghost who is white (sun/morning) and Dany has Drogon who is black (moon/night). Both animals are connected by red eyes.

[MoIaF]

Good stuff OP!

Obvious - Obscure

Dany was born while an actual storm was happening outside.

Jon was born while a storm of swords was happening outside. If our assumptions are correct.

They are both Stormborn. ;)

Very nice.

************

I'm now collecting the sun references to see if they correlate with any of the moon references I have. I did find an interesting one, not sure if it's important or not:

Dany VI AGOT:

"As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings."

[Ser Creighton]

one thing to note is that this dream and Jon's AA dream the bird is pecking him (you might already know it)

THere's also at least 2 references each for magic sword and with Dany it was with regards to marriage

I don't remember pecking and I am going back to look at the AA dream for section 2, so I will be taking good looks at them again.

Can you explain the sword and marriage reference for Dany, or post the chapter. Sorry I am 1/2 Irish and for some reason my brain is not working so well after last night.

Brilliant work OP, brilliant.

Thanks, feel free to contribute or ask anything if you have any questions.

Here is all the sun and stars imagery I could find in ADWD:

It seems to be a standard part of prayers for followers of the Lord of Light. The symbolism of having the sun and stars fight against the darkness sounds a lot like the AA prophecy though. So like I said, if Jon is AA that could tie him closely to any sun and stars imagery the way Dany is tied to moon imagery.

Great stuff thanks for that, of interest to me right off the top of my head is the Sun, Stars, and Moon, all repeated in Dany chapters with her and Drogo. Right now what is sticking out on first look is 3 sources of light. Though the sun and stars are the same thing, they are separated, you know the primitives in the book have no clue what they are. When talking about AA and the Prince and those prophecies and who is who or what, I am not really trying to answer that question, rather just looking for the symbolism of that idea and if it is applied to a person, then it is applied to that person. Like take Dany, Dany is not an actual Moon, she didn't kiss an actual sun. So the same way the Dragon moon story played out is the same way I am looking at other prophecies. Which is simply what is the symbolism, not lets say that symbolism ties itself to a character, well then it does just that and people can draw their own conclusions. I am not trying to point at any character, but rather let the text do what the text does. I don't want to say to much on the prophecies till I am done with them and I don't want it to feel like I am pointing anyone in any one direction, I just want people to look at the text and draw their own conclusions and discuss them. And I do want to discuss that but I want to be done with it when I do so I won't be forced into speculation to much and so I won't force anyone else into speculation.

Good stuff OP!

Obvious - Obscure

Dany was born while an actual storm was happening outside.

Jon was born while a storm of swords was happening outside. If our assumptions are correct.

They are both Stormborn. ;)

That's the general idea, yeah glad you enjoyed it. Though trying to avoid assumptions and just use the text. Dany was born as a storm raged, Jon was born as a Storm lord raged.

[Ser Creighton]

- AGoT, Eddard X (Tower of Joy)

That's really good JStar. Acts on so many levels too. You could easily write pages on the significance and symbolism. What is perfect is it is not literal, Dany's was literal here is the metaphorical storm. It's obscure it's figurative, the blue roses again, not just symbolic of Lyanna but Jon, the raw symbolism of being born is a storm or of a storm. Or the imagery that can be applied to that.

Great idea for a thread OP.

Damn, I never noticed this before. In hindsight this seems kind of obvious.

That's what I keep noticing as well, the parallels are obvious, but often glanced over. Like everyone knows that scene, and the focus is usually on Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon. But when you start putting Jon and Dany into each others focus, it's like "oh, no shit?" There has always been obvious stuff like the free folk and the free people. But when you find almost identical text that relates the exact same statement or symbolism it's like wow.

Isn't it always that way? (^_*)

This isn't an obscure / obvious reference but Jon has Ghost who is white (sun/morning) and Dany has Drogon who is black (moon/night). Both animals are connected by red eyes.

See, there it is again. But actually there may be more obscure and obvious there than you think. You have the symbolism you point out right? But what does Drogon do. He may be very black but he also breaths fire and fire and the sun go together, plus of course fire gives off light. Drogon of course is a literal Dragon. Dany and Jon are metaphorical dragons or symbolic dragons. Now Ghost of course is white as you point out, and that can tie easily to the day, and maybe something like dawn (the sword). But what else? He is a wolf and wolves and the moon as pointed out by Ghost in Jon I Dance sing to the moon. But what else? The way ghost looks, take a look at the end of the OP and what may be suggested there in the text. Bloodraven, who is a dragon but a dragon in darkness rather than a dark dragon. Now Dany of course flew off on Drogon and is sort of on what I call a spirit walk. Indications from the text suggest Jon will warg into ghost. Now perhaps Jon goes on the obscure spirit walk. Not that I am saying that is it, but there are some text indications.

Very nice.

************

I'm now collecting the sun references to see if they correlate with any of the moon references I have. I did find an interesting one, not sure if it's important or not:

Dany VI AGOT:

"As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings."

Really nice quote.

This appears to be foreshadowing, I tend to associate the shifting shadow reference with Jon as we see it appears to be used in regards to him a couple of times. Also the king and hero statement tends to support that idea. Also the use of faces, which is also used the statements in the op. From sun (Jon), to shadow (ghost, white shadow), and back to Sun again. This very much seems to support Jon warging into ghost and back. A second piece of text telling you Jon is not what? Sorry I had to say that, even though it is speculation because another piece of text support is indicating this and supporting the idea. It also supports AA claims with dead hero's. While a reader may think of Jon as a hero, in the books it's pretty much just Sam and Jon is rather disliked by many of the people around him.

[jet199]

Really interesting. However I do wonder if the "sun" in Jon's wolf dream might not be Bran. Bran is actually in a cave at the time and l think Bran is more opposite to Dany than Jon, who most people see as being a balance between two extremes.

[Ser Creighton]

Really interesting. However I do wonder if the "sun" in Jon's wolf dream might not be Bran. Bran is actually in a cave at the time and l think Bran is more opposite to Dany than Jon, who most people see as being a balance between two extremes.

Well the cave is the parallel but if you read the full passage ghost is clearly talking about the wall and castle black and distinguishes between which side of the wall he is on and what he is looking at. However, I do think Bran should be explored here but sun might not be right for him, though I can't lock that down as I have not gotten into it with Bran and lack the text support to really make any parallels. If you want to start looking into text examples that might support your idea or see what sort of symbolism may connect him to either character, I say go for it. I probably will look at him later, but I am currently really trying to get through sections 2 and 3. It's a lot of text for me to look at, if I find a parallel, I don't just look at the quote, I look at the full passage, the whole chapter, and sometimes multiple chapters, because I want to make sure I am not taking anything out of context.

[the conquoring bastard25]

It's nice to see that I am not crazy. Most of the references that were made about Jon and Dany I have thought myself

It's interesting about the Moon and Sun because the moon reflects the light of the sun. Without the sun, there would be no light coming through the moon. So if Jon is the Sun and Dany is the Moon, I take the meaning to mean that at some point she's to bend before the sun.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I don't remember pecking and I am going back to look at the AA dream for section 2, so I will be taking good looks at them again.

Can you explain the sword and marriage reference for Dany, or post the chapter. Sorry I am 1/2 Irish and for some reason my brain is not working so well after last night.

Dany states that among other things, quest for magic swords is what knights do to win maiden heart, and later tell Hiz she may still require a magic sword to marry (as a joke) I'm 99% positive its dany 4 or around there

I think it could point to marriage and/or a proof of Jon's parentage, if he gets a magic sword (which i think he will as i don't expect a definitive answer on the AA debate)

[Kienn]

green star

hmm, which one is this?

[Han Snow]

Dany states that among other things, quest for magic swords is what knights do to win maiden heart, and later tell Hiz she may still require a magic sword to marry (as a joke) I'm 99% positive its dany 4 or around there

I think it could point to marriage and/or a proof of Jon's parentage, if he gets a magic sword (which i think he will as i don't expect a definitive answer on the AA debate)

Or if Jon's the Lightbringer (sun imagery right there, see Schmendrik's topic) than he himself is a magic sword. And Dany marries him?

[Ser Creighton]

It's nice to see that I am not crazy. Most of the references that were made about Jon and Dany I have thought myself

It's interesting about the Moon and Sun because the moon reflects the light of the sun. Without the sun, there would be no light coming through the moon. So if Jon is the Sun and Dany is the Moon, I take the meaning to mean that at some point she's to bend before the sun.

No your not crazy, the parallels have been discussed before, but I just decided take the literary devices applied by Martin and go with the direct text parallels rather than use speculation as I think text evidence is far more concrete than just the idea. Ideas, speculation and theories are great, but I would rather take what the author is giving rather than speculate to much. I think the text offers more insight and answers, and it helps avoid circular debates.

Dany states that among other things, quest for magic swords is what knights do to win maiden heart, and later tell Hiz she may still require a magic sword to marry (as a joke) I'm 99% positive its dany 4 or around there

I think it could point to marriage and/or a proof of Jon's parentage, if he gets a magic sword (which i think he will as i don't expect a definitive answer on the AA debate)

Ok yeah I remember that, and thanks for the reminder. I am looking into the sword connections for obvious reasons, though I am not going to go to into it right now, but when section 2 is up I hope you will check it out. If you happen to come across anything else please post it or let me know if you feel like it.

hmm, which one is this?

The obscure star. It's from Dunk and Egg, but also found it's way into the main series much like Bloodraven. The star itself only was seen once, but it is floating around on a sigil of a POV.

Or if Jon's the Lightbringer (sun imagery right there, see Schmendrik's topic) than he himself is a magic sword. And Dany marries him?

I will be getting into that in the next few days, I am not saying much until the actual text is up. That's really what I am focusing on and there are parallels and symbolism. I am not saying a given theory is right or wrong, just posting the text parallels and it's up to everyone else to draw conclusions from what they read. A sun does give off light, no question there, but so do stars and so does the moon. Yes Stars and the sun are the same but I mean in the context of the characters in the series. There is a lot of symbolism around Lightbringer, so I think it's kind of important to look at the story of the sun and moon because of literal and figurative suns and moons and how the moon has been connected to both stories much the way the Prince and AA have been connected.

Hope you check back to read section two when it is done, and if you have any other insight it is appreciated. That goes for anyone who posts here, questions, insight it's all good.

[MoIaF]

Here is a quote we discussed in the Dany re-read. It is another references to the shattering of the moon. This happens in Dany V AGOT after the crones proclaim her son TSTMTW and Dany goes to wash herself in the Womb of the World:

"The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallions blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth."

Here is the discussion:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5393282

[MoIaF]

I have one more quote for today, but this one is about the sun.

While discussing Dany IX Ragnorak had a really interesting interpretation of the three times it took Dany to awaken from her fevered dream: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5501211

Here is a quick explanation of how Regnorak interpret the dream:

“We have her waking three times which fits with this idea of the dream and her theme of threes. First she wakes in drenched in shadow with ash rising to the smoke hole. She awakens again in darkness. She is passive, she doesn’t try to rise and the wind outside her tent is flapping like wings. Her transformation is outside; she hasn’t internalized it yet like in the dream. Her tent shields her from it. She drinks water that is warm and flat and cherishes it. She has been in this state too long. Finally she wakes a third time to “a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent.” The place where ashes poured out is now a place wear golden sunlight pours in She wants water but “as cold as you can find it” no longer satisfied with “warm and flat.”

At least on a personal level, the symbolism of the dreaming sections seems to point toward a too long journey of darkness and shadow where she eventually completes her transformation into a “dragon” that allows her to return “home” to whatever she discovers as her true replacement for the house with the red door.”

The first stage of her life is covered in ashes and shadows. Ashes represents death, before she is born she loses most of her family: mother, father, brother, nephew, niece. Once she is able to make a home for herself in the Dothraki Sea she looses that as well. That part of her life goes up in ashes in the pyre. Varys has referred to the power some have over others’s as shadows. For the first part of he life Dany was under the shadow of her brother, later her husband, and the end of the stage however, there were no shadows left. She wakes lost, not knowing what has happen what she needs. This is representative of her time in the Red Waste and later in Qarth where she asks three groups for help unsure of what she wants.

The second time she awakens she is drenched in darkness she is passive and does’t try to wake up. The tent outside is flapping like wings. Her time in Meereen is a very dark time for Dany, she is unable to accomplish the goals she has set for herself and faces one obstacle after another. She finally becomes dejected and despondent at her inability to make things right, this is the passiveness we see in her second awakening. Her dragons which she has locked away are flapping outside the tent, she has shielded herself from them.

"When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. "

She wants water but “as cold as you can find it” no longer satisfied with “warm and flat.”

Finally, the third and final time she awakens is to see a shaft of golden sunlight pouring where once ashes had pored from. Perhaps an indication of healing after all the hardship. As she awoke she was holding the pale dragon’s egg and requested water as cold as they could find.

The cold water could be an indication of the North where I’m sure after winter comes will be as cold as you’ll find. Her holding a dragon’s egg might be an indication of a child, a dragon’s child.

[Ser Creighton]

Here is a quote we discussed in the Dany re-read. It is another references to the shattering of the moon. This happens in Dany V AGOT after the crones proclaim her son TSTMTW and Dany goes to wash herself in the Womb of the World:

"The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallions blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth."

Here is the discussion:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5393282

A couple of interesting parallels and some good symbolism, the black waters, here, at winterfell in the black pool and of course the black water. The shattering and re-forming reminds me of the shifting shadows. You have the moon symbolism and shattering of course going back to the story of the moon and the birth of dragons. In context part of the scene is about Rhaego who also has an intresting parallel to Jon and the Prince along with Dany. Thinking of the prophecy of the stallion who mounts the world or the stallion that was promised. Dragon and Stallion could be considered interchangable with the two stories, the mother of dragons also is tied in with the moon of course. On occasion Dany sometimes takes on a Lyanna parallel. Most notably with the promised prince, though that gets into speculation on other theories and I am staying away from it until I get more text evidence.

I was just looking some of these quotes.

AGOT Ch 39. Right after Ned dreams of the tower of Joy.

Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the tower of the hand.

AGOT Ch 54 Dany.

Viserys had promised her a thousand times that he would take her back one day, but he was dead now and his promises had died with him.

AGOT Ch. 3 Dany.

We will have it all back someday, sweet sister, he would promise her.

AGOT Ch. 72 Dany. When the Dragons eggs crack.

She heard a crack the sound of shattering stone.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

[Ser Creighton]

I have one more quote for today, but this one is about the sun.

While discussing Dany IX Ragnorak had a really interesting interpretation of the three times it took Dany to awaken from her fevered dream: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5501211

Here is a quick explanation of how Regnorak interpret the dream:

The first stage of her life is covered in ashes and shadows. Ashes represents death, before she is born she loses most of her family: mother, father, brother, nephew, niece. Once she is able to make a home for herself in the Dothraki Sea she looses that as well. That part of her life goes up in ashes in the pyre. Varys has referred to the power some have over others’s as shadows. For the first part of he life Dany was under the shadow of her brother, later her husband, and the end of the stage however, there were no shadows left. She wakes lost, not knowing what has happen what she needs. This is representative of her time in the Red Waste and later in Qarth where she asks three groups for help unsure of what she wants.

The second time she awakens she is drenched in darkness she is passive and does’t try to wake up. The tent outside is flapping like wings. Her time in Meereen is a very dark time for Dany, she is unable to accomplish the goals she has set for herself and faces one obstacle after another. She finally becomes dejected and despondent at her inability to make things right, this is the passiveness we see in her second awakening. Her dragons which she has locked away are flapping outside the tent, she has shielded herself from them.

"When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. "

Finally, the third and final time she awakens is to see a shaft of golden sunlight pouring where once ashes had pored from. Perhaps an indication of healing after all the hardship. As she awoke she was holding the pale dragon’s egg and requested water as cold as they could find.

The cold water could be an indication of the North where I’m sure after winter comes will be as cold as you’ll find. Her holding a dragon’s egg might be an indication of a child, a dragon’s child.

Wow a lot there. Hahahaha a theme of three? Well I may have to look into that one day. Not going to get into to much of the speculation but if I was to make a connection here. Drink from the Cup of Ice, drink from the cup of fire. I'll add ot this post later, I am in the middle of something, but I will get back to it.

[DragonDreamer]

Something else occurred to me:

Dany: "It is known"

Jon: "You know nothing"