The Sun and the Moon a look at the parallels, and symbolisim of Jon and Dany. Section 3 update Be like water

[Han Snow]

"When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. "

Finally, the third and final time she awakens is to see a shaft of golden sunlight pouring where once ashes had pored from. Perhaps an indication of healing after all the hardship. As she awoke she was holding the pale dragon’s egg and requested water as cold as they could find.

The cold water could be an indication of the North where I’m sure after winter comes will be as cold as you’ll find. Her holding a dragon’s egg might be an indication of a child, a dragon’s child.

Wow, very nice.

My guess:

pale dragon’s egg = a Snowy Targ *cough* , a dragon who doesn't know he is a dragon.

...her arms were wrapped...

hmm...

[Kienn]

Another obvious - subtle instance with waking dragons from stone.

Dany births 3 dragons from "stone" eggs.

Jon is poised to rally his cousins by his injury/death and revival.

Assumptions: Eddards maternal grandmother = Jenny Flint(a type of stone) and else wise called Jenny of Oldstones who married Duncan the Small.

Other details - all the Stark kids are trapped in stone worlds currently...

Sansa - as Alayne Stone
Arya - in Braavos, a city of stone
Bran - a stone cave
Rickon - on Skaagos, with the Stoneborn

I think we can agree the Stark kids will be more involved with events soon... so if you accept them as dragons at all (through Duncan) - they may be the "stone dragons" referred to.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Kienn, thanks for your last post here ... really interesting post with some great clues.

Also there is a thread devoted to the High Septon who is really Howland Reed. At first I was leery of that idea but after carefully reading the clues in the books I am blown away..especially in light of I think its your thread regarding the Stark, Lannister, Reed, Baratheon and dragonfly thread? Not sure if that is yours or not..but in the discussion the High Septon has with Cersei..George had placed some really great hints about his true identity (HR) and also his heritage.

Eyes like mud at one point...later eyes like flint. Just two small clues but there are many clues that are much more compelling. Knowing Howland is now in the play of games really changes the inferences made in the conversations he has with Cersei.

If you have not checked out that thread you might consider doing so. :)

[random girl from westeros]

Are you saying that Howland Reed is the High Septon and he is going to vouch for Jon Snow?

[Ser Creighton]

Wow, very nice.

My guess:

pale dragon’s egg = a Snowy Targ *cough* , a dragon who doesn't know he is a dragon.

...her arms were wrapped...

hmm...

Wasn't that a great catch.

Another obvious - subtle instance with waking dragons from stone.

Dany births 3 dragons from "stone" eggs.

Jon is poised to rally his cousins by his injury/death and revival.

Assumptions: Eddards maternal grandmother = Jenny Flint(a type of stone) and else wise called Jenny of Oldstones who married Duncan the Small.

Other details - all the Stark kids are trapped in stone worlds currently...

Sansa - as Alayne Stone

Arya - in Braavos, a city of stone

Bran - a stone cave

Rickon - on Skaagos, with the Stoneborn

I think we can agree the Stark kids will be more involved with events soon... so if you accept them as dragons at all (through Duncan) - they may be the "stone dragons" referred to.

The truth is I don't know, I have not looked into that, though I encourage it to be explored. There is a stone theme there, I just don't have the time right now. Section two is now up, Stannis and Mel, Victarion on Moqorro, when Iron and Fire meet the the sun and the moon.

ETA. Just a little thought when dealing with the sun and moon inverse parallel. Arya the Cat, and Sansa the Littlebird, Sansa also has some moon symbolism with House Arryn of the Eyrie. Though it is not her house or an actual moon there is symbolism there and Arya and Sansa are good examples of the original theme post with inverse parallels.

[Han Snow]

Brilliant work Ser Creighton! I never gave much thought to Vic and it never occurred to me to draw parallels between him and Stannis, but by the Seven they are there, poking us in the eyes! Undeniable and clear! Those two characters give enticing, special flavor to the books by themselves, even though clearly far from the inner circle of main protagonists, but when you put their roles into Jon/Dany context like you did, when you see how they serve as some kind of a distorted mirror for their respective journeys...

Mel and Moqorro are more obvious, but people forget that Mel is with Jon now and Mogorro well on his way to meet Dany...

WOW can't come soon enough but these kind of threads make the wait just a little bit easier. Especially for people who don't have a bias against one character or the other.

[Veltigar]

Victarion and Moqorro are on their way to Dany. That’s all I will say but have some of you read the Winds of Winter sample chapters?

Most of us have, but if you want to say anything about it normal spoiler brackets will do the trick ;)

Kings Ch 6. Jon

“Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day”

I really liked all the points you made about comparing Stannis and Victarion (Strangely enough Stannis and Victarion are #2 and #3 on my list of favorite characters). There were some really good points, especiallt about their colours being reversed.

However, there was one thing that I disliked, though it's not your fault, namely the part that I quoted above. The Nooye quote is absolute bullshit in story imo. Everything after Blackwater refutes Donal's claim (before Blackwater I'd say he was right, but the fire changed him. Loosing at Blackwater made for a better man). In fact Stannis is imo the most adaptable/versatile of all the older characters (save for Euron perhaps, but he hasn't had the same kind of exposure).

Among leaders Stannis is certainly someone who is able to think outside of the box. The only leaders that think more outside of the regular are Jon and Dany (and perhaps Euron).

Still, the quote is there of course. But since Vic and Stan are the opposite in so many ways you might say that while both are considered Iron at the core, Stannis is more like steel and Vic is truly iron.

[Oaf keeper]

“Snow,” the moon insisted” The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden,”

I had a thought that maybe this means that the sun is a "son," Bran Stark, in the cave with the Children of the Forest and maybe Jon Snow, if alive, has to find Bran when he either wakes up from his coma Bran-style, or is resurrected Stoneheart-style. Just a thought.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Snip

:bowdown:

I enjoyed reading that

I am loving the parallel between Victarion and Stannis, I never realized that!!!

As an aside, there is a reverse parallel I noticed from Dany's last chapter in AGOT.

Jon is given a Valyrian steel sword by a Mormont and Dany promises the other Mormont a Valyrian steel sword. ;)

[Ser Creighton]

You know I just wanted to say thanks for the kind responses, and I wanted to give a little bit of info on the symbolism and the parallels not just for this thread but for people to look at on their own.

Following with the idea of Neds comments in Ned 22 Thrones. If you can identify symbolism with a character lets say house Targaryen then look for an inverse Parallel like house Blackfyre. Or you can take that to the character level. Once you get the symbolism look for the inverse of it. It's not just sigils obviously. While the symbolism between 2 will be inverse a cat and a bird, the stories of the two should have a series of obscure and obvious parallels. Not everything is a parallel, not every star or moon means something, but I think generally once you start making the connections it becomes easier for that set or sets. I don't know if it is applied to every POV or main character but it's something to consider.

[MoIaF]

Really interesting Part II - great job!

I hadn't considered the parallel but it seems so obvious now.

Mel and Moqorro are more obvious, but people forget that Mel is with Jon now and Mogorro well on his way to meet Dany...

WOW can't come soon enough but these kind of threads make the wait just a little bit easier. Especially for people who don't have a bias against one character or the other.

This is so very true. A nice scholarly discussion without all the 'I hates her/him" crap.

:bowdown:

As an aside, there is a reverse parallel I noticed from Dany's last chapter in AGOT.

Jon is given a Valyrian steel sword by a Mormont and Dany promises the other Mormont a Valyrian steel sword. ;)

Excellent reverse parallel! Good catch!

[MoIaF]

Wow, very nice.

My guess:

pale dragon’s egg = a Snowy Targ *cough* , a dragon who doesn't know he is a dragon.

...her arms were wrapped...

hmm...

Thanks!

I thought baby, but perhaps we need marriage before child.... ;)

[Ser Creighton]

You know I just wanted to say thanks for the kind responses, and I wanted to give a little bit of info on the symbolism and the parallels not just for this thread but for people to look at on their own.

Following with the idea of Neds comments in Ned 22 Thrones. If you can identify symbolism with a character lets say house Targaryen then look for an inverse Parallel like house Blackfyre. Or you can take that to the character level. Once you get the symbolism look for the inverse of it. It's not just sigils obviously. While the symbolism between 2 will be inverse a cat and a bird, the stories of the two should have a series of obscure and obvious parallels. Not everything is a parallel, not every star or moon means something, but I think generally once you start making the connections it becomes easier for that set or sets. I don't know if it is applied to every POV or main character but it's something to consider.

ETA. Just sort of a funny parallel. The dusky woman who is missing a tong has the same reaction to Moqorro as Davos who is missing fingers has to Mel which in turn Mel has the same reaction to Patchface who has no brain or perhaps soul.

ETA. Damn it I hit quote instead of edit, I hate it when that happens.

[ARYa_Nym]

ETA. Just a little thought when dealing with the sun and moon inverse parallel. Arya the Cat, and Sansa the Littlebird, Sansa also has some moon symbolism with House Arryn of the Eyrie. Though it is not her house or an actual moon there is symbolism there and Arya and Sansa are good examples of the original theme post with inverse parallels.

Arya also has the moon with the FM. She goes to them and is no one when the moon turns black. Faceless can actually stand for Phaseless.

There's this Rumi quote:

“Anyone who knows me, should learn to know me again;

For I am like the Moon,

you will see me with new face everyday.”

The Faceless men are always changing their face like the moon does.

She also has a water motif so a lot of times it's raining and the sun can't come out.

In ACoK she said:

“Syrio had once told her that darkness could be her friend, and he was right. If she had the moon and stars to see by that was enough.”

Bran was also told to embrace the darkness by his teacher BR.

ETA: I don't have a Dany quote but here's a Jon one from Mya Stone:

“He needs to make some haste. It’s getting colder, can’t you feel it? We need to get below Snow before the sun goes down.”-

Snow was capitalized.

[MoIaF]

ETA: I don't have a Dany quote but here's a Jon one from Mya Stone:

Snow was capitalized.

That's really curious, hmmm...

I found this one from Dany in ASOS (don't know if it means anything, but the setting in a blaze of red reminded me of Jon's stabbing and Dany's journey).

"The sun set in a blaze of red. I am still half a world from Westeros, Dany reminded herself, but every hour brings me closer."

ETA:

Jon ASOS:

"Lightbringer, they call it. Wait till you see it. It glows like it had a piece of sun inside it. He looked at Sam again and grinned a big helpless stupid grin. I still cant believe youre here."

[Lady Arya's Song]

Great OP Ser Creighton and a great thread.

I especially like all your connections regarding Vic and Stannis and I am so intrigued by Patchface and his true intentions in the story. I also love your explanation regarding the obvious and obscure in regard to the characters and symbolism. Thanks Ser Creighton for all the work.

[FrozenFire3]

I'm so enjoying your analysis, Ser C. Part 2 was brilliant and very original. To the Stannis-Victarion parallels I'd add a point of clashing convergence: the Battle of Fair Isle where Stannis caught Victarion in a trap and smashed the Iron Fleet. Not sure what to make of it, though... (Reverse parallel) foreshadowing?

This is so very true. A nice scholarly discussion without all the 'I hates her/him" crap.

Gods, yes!

[Ser Creighton]

Most of us have, but if you want to say anything about it normal spoiler brackets will do the trick ;)

I really liked all the points you made about comparing Stannis and Victarion (Strangely enough Stannis and Victarion are #2 and #3 on my list of favorite characters). There were some really good points, especiallt about their colours being reversed.

However, there was one thing that I disliked, though it's not your fault, namely the part that I quoted above. The Nooye quote is absolute bullshit in story imo. Everything after Blackwater refutes Donal's claim (before Blackwater I'd say he was right, but the fire changed him. Loosing at Blackwater made for a better man). In fact Stannis is imo the most adaptable/versatile of all the older characters (save for Euron perhaps, but he hasn't had the same kind of exposure).

Among leaders Stannis is certainly someone who is able to think outside of the box. The only leaders that think more outside of the regular are Jon and Dany (and perhaps Euron).

Still, the quote is there of course. But since Vic and Stan are the opposite in so many ways you might say that while both are considered Iron at the core, Stannis is more like steel and Vic is truly iron.

Well ok, yeah I know Stannis fans don't like the quote from Noye, but I people have to understand the unreliable narrator. From Noye's perspective that's true, but Noye was Roberts man, and it's not like he has been around stannis the last 10-15 years. All the Baratheon brothers could be rigid at times, most people fall in with that. Yeah Stannis stern but he bends, not easily, but he does bend. Second, it's most likely there as a clue. And finally we kind of need to remember that as we watch these characters they are all on a journey, 15 years ago Stannis may have been more rigid, as we have watched him and others we see them change, for good or bad it's the journey we watch.

Arya also has the moon with the FM. She goes to them and is no one when the moon turns black. Faceless can actually stand for Phaseless.

There's this Rumi quote:

The Faceless men are always changing their face like the moon does.

She also has a water motif so a lot of times it's raining and the sun can't come out.

In ACoK she said:

Bran was also told to embrace the darkness by his teacher BR.

ETA: I don't have a Dany quote but here's a Jon one from Mya Stone:

Snow was capitalized.

I know about the FM thing a bit, don't think I have not been looking at that. Though while they change there faces like the moon, they don't actually have a face, like a moonless night. It's a great metaphor for them, but that famed door of theirs, is rather interesting, do we know of a second door like that? I think we do. I know there are a lot of parallels, and once you really start getting into it, it becomes more evident. But the thing is I just can't go over all of them, I have actually been a little overwhelmed with the inverse symbolism and the obscure and obvious parallels. Plus you have the regular symbolism and all those other literary devices. There are other aspects to this theme and idea that I have not gotten into for certain reasons, and I am kind of hoping others do. Like this, if the inverse is true of the obvious, then it would stand to reason that it holds true with the obscure. I don't know if that is true, that would be more research. Now if you put the two top parts together, about Arya kind of going into dark places, she has no moon to guid her does she? Though there is symbolism, I would look for some symbolism of Sansa lacking the sun or something along those lines.

The Mya Stone quote is very interesting, could you give me the chapter for it? I think there is a sort of inverse for it in a prophecy, but I could be wrong.

As for Bran, the darkness quote I know, but there is a lot of moon symbolism as well, though it's a bit different and I have not started really going over it, but anyone else can at anytime.

That's really curious, hmmm...

I found this one from Dany in ASOS (don't know if it means anything, but the setting in a blaze of red reminded me of Jon's stabbing and Dany's journey). "The sun set in a blaze of red. I am still half a world from Westeros, Dany reminded herself, but every hour brings me closer."

ETA:

Jon ASOS:"Lightbringer, they call it. Wait till you see it. It glows like it had a piece of sun inside it. He looked at Sam again and grinned a big helpless stupid grin. I still cant believe youre here."

Well the sun setting could be one thing it could be an other it could be a multi layered metephore. Red is color applied to Dany more than it is talked about, the comet, the red waste, her sigil, drogon, the red door. But that's not really what I think when I read that, I do think of the Red Door and Westeros, it's the sunset kingdom, and of course it can be applied to Jon as well. Though I wonder what was going on with Jon at that time.

Now the Lightbringer quote is a different animal. A piece of the sun of the sun inside it? With that I see some things but it's not just about what I see it's about what you see, I want peoples opinions, that's one of the reasons I started this thread, to compare and contrast ideas. But I will tell you what I see, and I hhope you share what you think, there are a lot of ways to go with that. There is the obscure person aspect of it, LB as a person, the fire is inside them there are multiple quotes from the books about that. But also the obvious, and it's funny you posted this cause I was just looking at this stuff last night.

"He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light."

With Jon actually in the scene with your quote and of course the Tower of Joy is where the DDawn quote comes from there is a parallel. Would you like to see the inverse of your quote though?

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight”

“Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

Sorry I wanted the quote in context, her is the inverse.

“I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.”

"but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it." Not giving off light but taking it in.

I'm so enjoying your analysis, Ser C. Part 2 was brilliant and very original. To the Stannis-Victarion parallels I'd add a point of clashing convergence: the Battle of Fair Isle where Stannis caught Victarion in a trap and smashed the Iron Fleet. Not sure what to make of it, though... (Reverse parallel) foreshadowing?

Gods, yes!

Frozen with an Ozen what's up? You mean from the Greyjoy rebellion. Where Vics older brother rebelled against the Crown. Can't imagine it's an inverse of what happened to Stannis during Robert's rebellion. :)

They may clash again, I don't know, though following parallels might point you in a direction.

I'll give you something to consider, Bloodraven, Quaithe, and Euron, the obscure and the obvious, the inversion and the parallels. This is for anyone, I'll help start it off, the wooden man, and woman in the wooden mask, the blue lips and the red eye, the shadow and the fire, a binder of shadows and one who lives within them. Play around with the idea of those three if anyone feels like it and see what you come up with, and maybe we can compare notes.

[MoIaF]

Well the sun setting could be one thing it could be an other it could be a multi layered metephore. Red is color applied to Dany more than it is talked about, the comet, the red waste, her sigil, drogon, the red door. But that's not really what I think when I read that, I do think of the Red Door and Westeros, it's the sunset kingdom, and of course it can be applied to Jon as well. Though I wonder what was going on with Jon at that time.

Now the Lightbringer quote is a different animal. A piece of the sun of the sun inside it? With that I see some things but it's not just about what I see it's about what you see, I want peoples opinions, that's one of the reasons I started this thread, to compare and contrast ideas. But I will tell you what I see, and I hhope you share what you think, there are a lot of ways to go with that. There is the obscure person aspect of it, LB as a person, the fire is inside them there are multiple quotes from the books about that. But also the obvious, and it's funny you posted this cause I was just looking at this stuff last night.

"He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light."

With Jon actually in the scene with your quote and of course the Tower of Joy is where the DDawn quote comes from there is a parallel. Would you like to see the inverse of your quote though?

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight”

“Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

Sorry I wanted the quote in context, her is the inverse.

“I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.”

"but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it." Not giving off light but taking it in.

I need to organize my thoughts I can analyze the quotes, however, I did want to expand on something you said above. You mention that Lightbringer could be a person, I'm of the believe that the AAR /PTWP prophecy are in reference to more than one person. I don't believe in the idea of the "One True Hero", the story has been built on the idea that no man or woman can do it all on their own. Having said that, it occurred to me that there could be more than one Lightbringer.

In Jon III ADWD he says:

"The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel."

The bolded part makes me think of what Dany's says that the dragons are fire made flesh.

[Ser Creighton]

Just wanted to qualify something about my Dawn, Lightbringer, and a person comments and quotes. People sometimes talk about Lightbringer as a person, and I don't disagree with it, nor do I disagree with it being a sword. Applying the obvious and the obscure parallels, and inversion. You can see a story maybe forming.

The story of Azor Ahai, you all know it so I will skip it. But the obvious is often ignored there. It took 2 people to make Lightbringer. Sure Azor forged the blade, but it was Nissa who tempered it with her soul. And that is the original Lightbringer, but even in the original text it took two to make that sword. Salladhor made a mistake in his comments about the sword. Take note he never knew why they made the blade, he never mentions the Others. They had love and they had a reason, he just didn't know it. I mention that because some talk about the evil that was Azor Ahai. But love and sacrifice strike me more than evil.

Now what would be the inversion, is up to you to decide. I have my own ideas.