The Sun and the Moon a look at the parallels, and symbolisim of Jon and Dany. Section 3 update Be like water

[Ser Creighton]

I need to organize my thoughts I can analyze the quotes, however, I did want to expand on something you said above. You mention that Lightbringer could be a person, I'm of the believe that the AAR /PTWP prophecy are in reference to more than one person. I don't believe in the idea of the "One True Hero", the story has been built on the idea that no man or woman can do it all on their own. Having said that, it occurred to me that there could be more than one Lightbringer.

In Jon III ADWD he says:"The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel."

The bolded part makes me think of what Dany's says that the dragons are fire made flesh.

Well I don't believe in one true hero either, and I have my thoughts on the matter which I touch on below. Something I think people forget is Nissa. Azor made a sword, Nissa made and in a sense was Lightbringer. Yes he pounded a hammer for 180 days, she gave her soul. The two in a sense became one.

[MoIaF]

Well I don't believe in one true hero either, and I have my thoughts on the matter which I touch on below. Something I think people forget is Nissa. Azor made a sword, Nissa made and in a sense was Lightbringer. Yes he pounded a hammer for 180 days, she gave her soul. The two in a sense became one.

Hmmm - I personally don't believe that the role of Nissa Nissa will be repeated ex scaly as in the legend, that is I don't think Lightbringer will need to be reforged in the same manner. However, I see your point which is the importance of her role in the creation of Lightbringer, her personal sacrifice.

If the dragons are Dany's Lightbringer, then her "Nissa Nissa" was her son Rhaego. In Dany's fevered dream after her miscarriage she sees the following:

Her son was tall and proud, with Drogos copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash.

If we follow this logic, then we might assume that our other leaders will also have to make painful, personal sacrifices in order to obtain the tools they'll need to fight the War for Dawn.

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

She has the moon when she is warging and she uses the moon to know when she must go back to being no one.

I don't know about Sansa. I just know that when she was with Hot Pie, Gendry, and Sandor there were times when there was no sun. In Braavos it's mainly rain or fog.

ETA: Oh, and on Mya I don't know the chapter. It's from AFFC and it's Page 788/Location 12078 according to my kindle.

[Ser Creighton]

Hmmm - I personally don't believe that the role of Nissa Nissa will be repeated ex scaly as in the legend, that is I don't think Lightbringer will need to be reforged in the same manner. However, I see your point which is the importance of her role in the creation of Lightbringer, her personal sacrifice.

If the dragons are Dany's Lightbringer, then her "Nissa Nissa" was her son Rhaego. In Dany's fevered dream after her miscarriage she sees the following:Her son was tall and proud, with Drogos copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash.

If we follow this logic, then we might assume that our other leaders will also have to make painful, personal sacrifices in order to obtain the tools they'll need to fight the War for Dawn.

Yeah I am not talking about it being the same, if the this holds true. With Dany the Symbolism is inverted, but the problem I see is the sacrifice, the parallel has also been inverted. MMD, Drogo and Rhaego never had an option, while Dany made a sacrifice, much like Azor, the Nissa role was never fulfilled the parallel is missing or inverted. Though the metaphor for the dragons and the red sword exists. Now I see a similar problem with Jon, in his case Rhaegar and Lyanna are not inverted, and I don't know if a sacrifice of life was knowingly made. This takes me back to Dany's role as Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon having an inverted parallel. Jon and Dany symbolism still goes back to ice and fire, and when I say that I am not talking about future assumptions, rather what Martin has given us so far, the obvious symbolism. The obscure is more like a sleeping giant to me.

Now I am really glad you brought Rhaego, as I will continue this sort of parallel between Dany and Jon. Dany had a son of course well almost I should say. As you point out from the dream which is very fire oriented and he had a burning heart. But the stillborn was different, described differently and the description is supported in another book of another Targaryen child.

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him.”

“He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small, leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.”

Remember monstrous, the Baby was literally monstrous, much the way the Dragons are obvious monsters.

Now we are told about all this, but we can see the fire, symbolism from the dream and some dragon oriented symbolism from the Stillborn, but also death, corruption etc... There is also a literal heart associated with Drago the heart Dany ate.

Now we can also get into the Lightbringer heart of Nissa Nissa, and the corrupted heart of the Undying. Stallions heart of course lacks sacrifice, and the Undying heart was ripped apart by Drogon. Then we have the heart of Winter. A literal heart with the horse, a metaphorical magic heart in the heart of winter and the Undying kind of go between the two. Though I am looking for human in between and fully magical as a theme for both fire and ice or sun and moon. Rhaego almost had the burning human heart. A speculative would be Dany now has that heart, or it has been touched by fire, though maybe not.

Now what about Jon? Jon has no children. But he did associate himself with a child. Now this of course falls inline with the obscure to the obvious. Gilly and Crasters child Little Monster or the Monster, note the Obscure parallel. This child is very much associated with the Cold and the Others. There is also the oddity of a child at the Wall. A child kept there by Jon who also fostered it in a way by making sure he had a home. This child is alive however, though his brothers were a sacrifice, not by there own choice of course. If I had a question it would be what is Martins purpose for that child. Now oddly enough that child is very much connected to Val who is sort if his adoptive mother. I think Val and the child may require further thought. Of note with Val is her eyes, pre her mission to find Tormund they were Grey and post they are blue. Perhaps just an author making a mistake, though considering all the ice symbolism around Jon I am not so sure. Also of note is Craster, who is hinted to have Other blood, I'll post the quote later. A child with blood of the Dragon, and child with possible Other blood.

I can't say I know how this will play out and do not wish to speculate to far, but there are some interesting parallels and inverted symbolism.

She has the moon when she is warging and she uses the moon to know when she must go back to being no one.

I don't know about Sansa. I just know that when she was with Hot Pie, Gendry, and Sandor there were times when there was no sun. In Braavos it's mainly rain or fog.

ETA: Oh, and on Mya I don't know the chapter. It's from AFFC and it's Page 788/Location 12078 according to my kindle.

She has the moon when she is warging, which is a family gift right? She was being rather Arya there rather than nobody.

Not every occurrence is of anything is relative to a character, generally you can kind of spot symbolism.

A little on Sansa and Arya. Both have lost their wolves, both had their own unique type of needle work, both have been hidden in stone as another poster pointed out.

Now with the wolves one is dead and one is lost to a character, much like the Monstrous baby and the Little monster. So again we see that dynamic.

Now I will do a pinch of speculation, Sansa has been taken to the Vale by Littlefinger and he is mentoring her and of course the Vale has a lot of moon symbolism. Now I believe Arya was being taken someplace to be mentored as well in her last chapter, a person named Izembaro.

Now I want to do a little speculation here. Will it be Dorne? Or perhaps a place with some obvious sun symbolism?

To speculate on Sansa a bit as well. Arya was literally blind when she warged the Cat to help her see. Sansa is metaphorically blind to Littlefinger, will she warg a bird to help her see the truth?

Oh and just a little further Jon and the sun parallel as well. Jon was born in Dorne.

[Fostofina]

wow that's pretty sopt on! :cheers:

[random girl from westeros]

Jon doesn't have children but what about what Maester Aemon let him a passage to read about killing the boy to let the man out. That is a way of sacrifice.

[ARYa_Nym]

She has the moon when she is warging, which is a family gift right? She was being rather Arya there rather than nobody.

Not every occurrence is of anything is relative to a character, generally you can kind of spot symbolism.

A little on Sansa and Arya. Both have lost their wolves, both had their own unique type of needle work, both have been hidden in stone as another poster pointed out.

Now with the wolves one is dead and one is lost to a character, much like the Monstrous baby and the Little monster. So again we see that dynamic.

Now I will do a pinch of speculation, Sansa has been taken to the Vale by Littlefinger and he is mentoring her and of course the Vale has a lot of moon symbolism. Now I believe Arya was being taken someplace to be mentored as well in her last chapter, a person named Izembaro.

Now I want to do a little speculation here. Will it be Dorne? Or perhaps a place with some obvious sun symbolism?

To speculate on Sansa a bit as well. Arya was literally blind when she warged the Cat to help her see. Sansa is metaphorically blind to Littlefinger, will she warg a bird to help her see the truth?

Oh and just a little further Jon and the sun parallel as well. Jon was born in Dorne.

She has it both when she is Arya via warging but also when she is Cat. The KM tells her to tell him 3 new things and come back when the moon turns. The shape of the moon tells her how long she has and exactly when it's time to be no one.

I suppose given the way it's written it's easy to miss but Arya first warged a cat in AFFC so pre blindness.

I see it as a parallel to Bran. Arya was surrounded by cats because they liked her and how she smelled like fish as Cat. Bran was in the COTF's cave and there were ravens everywhere. For both of them it was their second animal. A difference would be that it was easy for Arya and the ravens were difficult for Bran at first.

Speaking of Bran right before he starts to warg a bird the moon is mentioned.

"The moon was a black hole in the sky. Wolves howled in the wood, sniffing through the snowdrifts after dead things. A murder of ravens erupted from the hillside, screaming their sharp cries, black wings beating above a white world."

He mentions a phaseless moon.

In the paragraph before he starts to try to warg ravens he says:

"The moon was a crecent, thin and sharp as a blade of a knife. Snowflakes drifted down soundlessly to cloak the soldier pines and sentinels in white."

So he also has the moon changing in his chapters.

ETA: Plus, both start to use their second animals to gather information. Arya listens in on the Lyseni while Bran/BR listen in on the events in the North.

Unrelated but Jon also lost his wolf for a time but it wasn't an extended period.

Anyways, Sansa is the one who has actually interacted with a Martell. Her presence as well as Tyrion's prevented him from being accused since they took the fall instead. It's not much of a connection but it's still some.

Arya has been connected to the sun because of Queen Nymeria but I don't think that one is good. Queen Nymeria was a Rhoynar at the root. They are river faring people. Her city Ny Sar is located where the Rhoyne (which is similar in size to the Trident) meets the Wild Daughter. It had a port and a harbor (Arya loves Ragman's harbor in Braavos) where there used to be hundreds of ships. Now she was connected to the sun (Martell) but that was through marriage. I don't think an Arya/Trystane match is at all likely.

I very much believe that Izembaro is in Braavos. She was told to have a face the city watch doesn't know so he didn't want her recognized. There was an SSM which said that there was a character yet to be introduced called the King of Mummers. The KM told her that she must learn mummery before glamor and the FM method of changing the face. Braavos has mummer troupes.

I suppose Jon does have a Dornish connection. Plus, his siblings were half Martell.

[Ser Creighton]

wow that's pretty sopt on! :cheers:

Glad you enjoyed it.

Jon doesn't have children but what about what Maester Aemon let him a passage to read about killing the boy to let the man out. That is a way of sacrifice.

Yes indeed Aemon said that too him and it's a parallel to Egg among other things. But something is different here. Jon is dying, now maybe it's just a thing where it's about growing up. But what is going on? Now going with the Parallel you have Rhaego who is killed and helps wake the 3 dragons or perhaps Dany or Dany as well.

"Kill the Boy and wake the man." The monstrous child and the little monster.

So how about another quote?

"Only death can pay for life."

Jon was the target of an assassination, no choice there, no sacrifice there, and it does not seem you can kill yourself to wake yourself.

If parallels hold true, that baby who avoided being sacrificed, will be sacrificed. MMD did it with Rhaego, and Mel is sitting right there. She wanted to sacrifice a baby before, she wanted to burn a child before. She does not know if Stannis is alive and the fires show her only Snow.

It's a tough one, but there is a child at the wall for a reason, the parallel is there. It's something to think about, I don't know if it will happen or it becomes a metaphorical sacrifice, but this is Martin.

I also suspect something interesting to happen with Jon and Ghost. Now it's pretty well hinted that Jon will warg into Ghost and I am sure this will have many different effects and plot twists, but there is something that I have been wondering about. This off topic but, as Ghost Jon can smell things that he can't as a human and Jon has never warged into Ghost around certain people.

She has it both when she is Arya via warging but also when she is Cat. The KM tells her to tell him 3 new things and come back when the moon turns. The shape of the moon tells her how long she has and exactly when it's time to be no one.

I suppose given the way it's written it's easy to miss but Arya first warged a cat in AFFC so pre blindness.

I see it as a parallel to Bran. Arya was surrounded by cats because they liked her and how she smelled like fish as Cat. Bran was in the COTF's cave and there were ravens everywhere. For both of them it was their second animal. A difference would be that it was easy for Arya and the ravens were difficult for Bran at first.

Speaking of Bran right before he starts to warg a bird the moon is mentioned.

He mentions a phaseless moon.

In the paragraph before he starts to try to warg ravens he says:

So he also has the moon changing in his chapters.

ETA: Plus, both start to use their second animals to gather information. Arya listens in on the Lyseni while Bran/BR listen in on the events in the North.

Unrelated but Jon also lost his wolf for a time but it wasn't an extended period.

Anyways, Sansa is the one who has actually interacted with a Martell. Her presence as well as Tyrion's prevented him from being accused since they took the fall instead. It's not much of a connection but it's still some.

Arya has been connected to the sun because of Queen Nymeria but I don't think that one is good. Queen Nymeria was a Rhoynar at the root. They are river faring people. Her city Ny Sar is located where the Rhoyne (which is similar in size to the Trident) meets the Wild Daughter. It had a port and a harbor (Arya loves Ragman's harbor in Braavos) where there used to be hundreds of ships. Now she was connected to the sun (Martell) but that was through marriage. I don't think an Arya/Trystane match is at all likely.

I very much believe that Izembaro is in Braavos. She was told to have a face the city watch doesn't know so he didn't want her recognized. There was an SSM which said that there was a character yet to be introduced called the King of Mummers. The KM told her that she must learn mummery before glamor and the FM method of changing the face. Braavos has mummer troupes.

I suppose Jon does have a Dornish connection. Plus, his siblings were half Martell.

Well I wouldn't say she is both, but rather has both. And she should that is how it works the obscure and the obvious. And it's not to say she can't have a parallel to other characters, she can, they all can. One of the reasons I brought up Bloodraven, Crowseye and Quaithe earlier. Bran is also in stone like Sansa, and Arya in a sense. The moon is also tied to him. Though take a look at the crescent Moon foreshadowing, now it has symbolism for Bran, but the moon as a knife, that has very large implications of Jon.

Mels vision in Dance 31 has it's own parallel in it they may tie to that, though I do not know. I also want to take a look how many times he say a crescent moon and a blade reference was made.

All you need to remember is if the obvious is true then so should the obscure be true. The same for the inverted symbolism. Just like Greyjoy and Baratheon sigils. You have a creature from the sea, and one from land, but in the colors it's not one color but two. It's just reversed. Arya is probably tried more towards the sun and has the obscure moon symbolism or hidden moon symbolism how every you want to phrase it.

Now yes you are right on with Bran, and Arya, note that I mentioned before about Cat's and Birds. Inverted symbolism. But the Stark children are all interconnected and so I would not be surprised to find these kinds of parallels.

Though Arya tends to have more with Sansa, like the Hound being another one, they both went on an ocean journey. Littlefingers family is from Braavos, the Titan symbolism in his house.

I get the feeling that you would rather not talk about Sansa and Arya parallels, but rather Bran and Arya, or perhaps Arya and her parallel symbolism with others. Which is fine, so I'll the Sansa stuff on the side. Just remember like that quote from Ned, they all have the same blood, and are all different but interconnected, it's the stark kids. There are also other Characters out there, Jaime and Cersei, Brie and the Hound, I think I have not looked into it it's just a guess off the top of my head.

With Arya it does not have to be Dorne, just a place with a connection to the sun, it's symbolism, but if I am not mistaken, Mummers travel, like Varys used too.

Yeah Jon has a connection to Dorne, though it is not obvious. Going to post something interesting later, hope you check back.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't think this was mentioned yet, but there is another Stannis-Ironborn inverse parallel that occurred to me. During the first Greyjoy Rebellion, the Ironborn burned the Lannister fleet at anchor in Lannisport, with Vic throwing the first torch.

During the assault on Dragonstone led by Stannis after Robert's Rebellion, the Targaryen fleet was destroyed at anchor by a storm, or water and wind.

Interesting that a Storm Lord seemed to have the Storm God on his side. :)

---

Though largely unrelated to this thread, it occurred to me that the power of the Stormlands always passes through the female line of the current 'rulers', when it changes hands. Elenei, supposed daughter of the sea god and wind goddess (maybe they destroyed the Targaryen fleet? :)) married the first Storm King Durran Godsgrief, founder of House Durrendon. Then, centuries later, Orys Baratheon killed Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King, and married his daughter, adopting her words and colors.

I wonder if this groundwork hasn't been laid to foreshadow something similar with Shireen.

[Ser Creighton]

I don't think this was mentioned yet, but there is another Stannis-Ironborn inverse parallel that occurred to me. During the first Greyjoy Rebellion, the Ironborn burned the Lannister fleet at anchor in Lannisport, with Vic throwing the first torch.

During the assault on Dragonstone led by Stannis after Robert's Rebellion, the Targaryen fleet was destroyed at anchor by a storm, or water and wind.

Interesting that a Storm Lord seemed to have the Storm God on his side. :)

---

Though largely unrelated to this thread, it occurred to me that the power of the Stormlands always passes through the female line of the current 'rulers', when it changes hands. Elenei, supposed daughter of the sea god and wind goddess (maybe they destroyed the Targaryen fleet? :)) married the first Storm King Durran Godsgrief, founder of House Durrendon. Then, centuries later, Orys Baratheon killed Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King, and married his daughter, adopting her words and colors.

I wonder if this groundwork hasn't been laid to foreshadow something similar with Shireen.

That's really interesting, you know I really feel that the Baratheon and Greyjoy families needs some serious looking into, I have this idea they are related. I know seems odd, but if your right about female line with Baratheon then Greyjoy will be all through the male line. This also makes me wonder about Stannis and Asha as I am starting to tie the construction of Storms end to the Greyjoys being the Storm or wind gods. If a parallel holds true, then something should happen like Stannis saving Asha as symbolism may be inverted, or perhaps Theon and Shireen, I am not sure.

On the parallel between Dragonstone and Lannisport, I may be wrong but I tend to parallel Dragonstone to Moat Cailin. Stannis took Dragonstone and Vic took Moat Cailin, though I would have to look for some sort of storm element. What strikes me as the parallel is the two old fortresses. One on an Island the other an Island unto itself. Both I think may have been ruling seats at one point, Dragonstone I know was, but Moat Cailin pre dates Winterfell in the north. Moat Cailin stood on the edge of the Northern kingdom, Dragonstone on the Edge of the Valyrian freehold. Moat Cailin oddly has a girls name as well, Cailin.

Lannisport I tie to the blackwater. But it does remind me of that very odd parallel which I think in the future is going to have relevance. Gerion and Euron. Both being tied to Valyria and slave crews, both vanishing, though one has returned, I think, not sure exactly what Euron is yet but it's bad whatever it is. Both seem to have left right around Bran's birth as well. I am interested to see if Gerion returns. Don't know what any of this means, though they seem like clues to something bigger. There are so many really close parallels out there, that seem to form in the same sort of order as the Ned Stark comment. I kind of have an idea of what they are all tied too but for the life of me I can't figure out what that means, well I sort of know, but I am not ready to put it down yet, cause I think it really only makes sense to Martin, it's there for a reason though, or maybe I just don't like what I think it means.

[Kienn]

That's really interesting, you know I really feel that the Baratheon and Greyjoy families needs some serious looking into, I have this idea they are related. I know seems odd, but if your right about female line with Baratheon then Greyjoy will be all through the male line. This also makes me wonder about Stannis and Asha as I am starting to tie the construction of Storms end to the Greyjoys being the Storm or wind gods. If a parallel holds true, then something should happen like Stannis saving Asha as symbolism may be inverted, or perhaps Theon and Shireen, I am not sure.

On the parallel between Dragonstone and Lannisport, I may be wrong but I tend to parallel Dragonstone to Moat Cailin. Stannis took Dragonstone and Vic took Moat Cailin, though I would have to look for some sort of storm element. What strikes me as the parallel is the two old fortresses. One on an Island the other an Island unto itself. Both I think may have been ruling seats at one point, Dragonstone I know was, but Moat Cailin pre dates Winterfell in the north. Moat Cailin stood on the edge of the Northern kingdom, Dragonstone on the Edge of the Valyrian freehold. Moat Cailin oddly has a girls name as well, Cailin.

Lannisport I tie to the blackwater. But it does remind me of that very odd parallel which I think in the future is going to have relevance. Gerion and Euron. Both being tied to Valyria and slave crews, both vanishing, though one has returned, I think, not sure exactly what Euron is yet but it's bad whatever it is. Both seem to have left right around Bran's birth as well. I am interested to see if Gerion returns. Don't know what any of this means, though they seem like clues to something bigger. There are so many really close parallels out there, that seem to form in the same sort of order as the Ned Stark comment. I kind of have an idea of what they are all tied too but for the life of me I can't figure out what that means, well I sort of know, but I am not ready to put it down yet, cause I think it really only makes sense to Martin, it's there for a reason though, or maybe I just don't like what I think it means.

You can share, we won't judge you :p

[Aderyn]

Not really contributing to anything, just wanted to say that this is very nice work! I'm much leaning towards the possibility that Jon and Dany will have something to do with each other in the end, whether it be marriage / romance or the war of ice and fire or whatever. This definitely gave me more tools. : ) Also, what pleased me even more was the second part of your analyse - Stannis and Victarion. I hadn't seen a connection between them before. But then again, I've only read ADwD once...

I'll be waiting for Section 3. : )

[MoIaF]

snip

Excellent conclusion to your polarity series! :thumbsup: I'll write up tomorrow after I've had some time to digest it. :D But here is a quick note:

Time… is time associated with water and inverse parallels in the books, does it have a polarity? Symbolically yes, we learn part of this from BR.

“The trees remember, but men forget.”

“The singers of the forest had no books. No Ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees and weirwoods above all.”

When the singers die everything they are and were goes into the tree. The singers believe the trees are the old gods. Mist also seems symbolic of memory and the past in the books. The Others as well:

“A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

Like memory Ice preserves, it may not always be perfect, but neither are the Wights.

Fire, fire consumes just like time. In the books the inverse parallel to the old gods or the weirwoods is fire. Fire destroyed many a weirwood just like time tends to eat away at our memories. But more than that. The red priests of R’hllor look into their fires to see the future but the future is ever changing. The fading mist and the shifting shadows. Targaryens also have a tendency to see the future.

The Old gods and R’hllor, inverse parallels polarities really, past and future, fire and ice.

“. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .”

Like most polarities Ice and fire are being drawn to one another, but what about the middle where future and past meet?

I had noticed as well the interesting polarity between the ability of greenseers to see the (incomplete) past through the weirwood network and the ability of the red priest to see the (incomplete) future through the flames.

I have also wondered whether the magical properties of weirwood are inverted in ebony. We see that there are several juxtaposition of these two trees throughout the series. The doors of Tobho Mott's shop, the main chamber of The House of the Undying and the House of Black and White are all made with weirwood on one side and ebony on the other.

It's also seems that not only are they polarities they are also complementary to one another. Opposites it seems in GRRM's world do attract. ;)

[Ser Creighton]

Excellent conclusion to your polarity series! :thumbsup: I'll write up tomorrow after I've had some time to digest it. :D But here is a quick note:

I had noticed as well the interesting polarity between the ability of greenseers to see the (incomplete) past through the weirwood network and the ability of the red priest to see the (incomplete) future through the flames.

I have also wondered whether the magical properties of weirwood are inverted in ebony. We see that there are several juxtaposition of these two trees throughout the series. The doors of Tobho Mott's shop, the main chamber of The House of the Undying and the House of Black and White are all made with weirwood on one side and ebony on the other.

It's also seems that not only are they polarities they are also complementary to one another. Opposites it seems in GRRM's world do attract. ;)

Yeah Ebony appears to be the inverse of weirwood, we see the two used in the yin yang form often. Yes the both greenseers and red priests have limited insight into the future and the past, might lead to some intresting choices for someone observing them.

I am very much looking at Quaithe and Bloodraven now, though I always have. But these appear to be the two players, ice having moved first. To an extent I think Quaithe is trying to stop BR, I have major doubts he is up to anything good and I am pretty sure he is after Bran as a new body, as the magic is in Brans blood is what makes him a greenseer. All those bodies Bran saw, the erasing of part of Bran's memory, brining Bran into the Others territory, his Weirwood armored in Ice as if for war. And the children who ever said the children liked man these days? They hide from man, man destroyed them and they have not forgotten as the Ghot of Highheart tells us. The giants tried to kill them and then they made peace, the First men tried to kill them and then they made peace. The Others came and the children were nowhere to be found, it took the last hero years to find them. Then came the Andals, who burned and destroyed. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Bloodraven the nice old tree wizard who looks like a corpse, those are some interesting choices he has made. Quaithe and her wooden mask, and Bloodraven with his well wooden mask as well the faces of the Old gods. I think he screwed Jon as well he needs another pawn. Though this is all theoretical though Quaithe and Bloodraven are perfect polarities much like Dany and Jon.

Glad you enjoyed it, I am sure some will not, most won't have the stamina to make it threw to three for the conclusion.

[Kyoshi]

I really love your OP, Ser! :cheers: Great work! :thumbsup: I think I have a parallel to add, it could be nothing though. So bear with me. I also apologise if someone else has already mentioned it.

As far as we've been told, Jon is a son of Eddard Stark--a man whose House sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. From the sigil alone, one could go as far as saying the Starks are grey direwolves in the cold, white North. [However, Jon and Rickon have direwolves that are not grey]. Over the course of the books we've watched as Jon grows closer with Ghost, almost becoming one with him. I would say the wolf dreams point to this being true.

Daenerys hails from House Targaryen--a House with a red three headed dragon on a black field as a sigil. Here I would say we have red dragons in the black night/darkness. Since the moment she received the dragon eggs, we've seen her grow stronger. She has also had what I have seen described as dragon dreams. And since the moment the eggs hatched, I think there is strong evidence in the text to support her growing closeness with Drogon [i don't have access to the books but if you doubt me I am willing to find the quotes and provide them].

Up to this point we have Jon--a white wolf with red eyes [where we are theoretically supposed to have a grey wolf], and Daenerys--a black dragon with red eyes [where we are supposed to have a red dragon].

In Dance, after Drgon killed a child, Dany caged her two other dragons but was unable to do the same with Drogon [Thanks to MoIaF for her contribution to this "epiphany"]. Figuratively, Daenerys caged a part of her identity because she is a metaphoric dragon; however, she failed in caging the most important part because it is Drogon to whom she is closest.

Also in Dance, when Boqorro(?) comes to the Wall with his boar, Ghost is unsettled, leading to Jon literally caging him. I would say that this is where we have the parallel...or contrast, however one wishes to interpret it: Jon cages the [animal familiar] part of himself [perhaps to his own detriment] while Dany fails to do so [perhaps to her own salvation].

I have this to ask: is it a coincidence that Jon and Danerys have formed bonds with animal familiars that either reverse or completely discard their "ideal" familiar colours? Is it a coincidence that they both try to cage these familiars?

[Lord Martin]

I really love your OP, Ser! :cheers: Great work! :thumbsup: I think I have a parallel to add, it could be nothing though. So bear with me. I also apologise if someone else has already mentioned it.

As far as we've been told, Jon is a son of Eddard Stark--a man whose House sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. From the sigil alone, one could go as far as saying the Starks are grey direwolves in the cold, white North. [However, Jon and Rickon have direwolves that are not grey]. Over the course of the books we've watched as Jon grows closer with Ghost, almost becoming one with him. I would say the wolf dreams point to this being true.

Daenerys hails from House Targaryen--a House with a red three headed dragon on a black field as a sigil. Here I would say we have red dragons in the black night/darkness. Since the moment she received the dragon eggs, we've seen her grow stronger. She has also had what I have seen described as dragon dreams. And since the moment the eggs hatched, I think there is strong evidence in the text to support her growing closeness with Drogon [i don't have access to the books but if you doubt me I am willing to find the quotes and provide them].

Up to this point we have Jon--a white wolf with red eyes [where we are theoretically supposed to have a grey wolf], and Daenerys--a black dragon with red eyes [where we are supposed to have a red dragon].

In Dance, after Drgon killed a child, Dany caged her two other dragons but was unable to do the same with Drogon [Thanks to MoIaF for her contribution to this "epiphany"]. Figuratively, Daenerys caged a part of her identity because she is a metaphoric dragon; however, she failed in caging the most important part because it is Drogon to whom she is closest.

Also in Dance, when Boqorro(?) comes to the Wall with his boar, Ghost is unsettled, leading to Jon literally caging him. I would say that this is where we have the parallel...or contrast, however one wishes to interpret it: Jon cages the [animal familiar] part of himself [perhaps to his own detriment] while Dany fails to do so [perhaps to her own salvation].

I have this to ask: is it a coincidence that Jon and Danerys have formed bonds with animal familiars that either reverse or completely discard their "ideal" familiar colours? Is it a coincidence that they both try to cage these familiars?

This is really nice and I was working on something regarding Jon's sigil colors.

The Stark Sigil is a grey wolf on a white field of snow. Its never been formalized in the story, but as a bastard, Jon's Sigil would likely be the reverse, a white wolf on a grey field. No coincidence that his wolf is white. I think there are a few ways to interpret these color schemes:

Grey on white: The Starks are the only thing preventing the world from being covered in white (the Others). But at the same time, if white is the color of purity, then the Starks are also preventing the world from being 100% white (pure?). So are the Starks some sort of protector of balance? They make sure there are still some dark colors in a pure white world?

White on Grey: So is Jon the lone bright spot in a grey world? Or is the what permits the Others (white) to continue to exist? And what about Jon's Black Cloak? Does he have to shed it in order to realize his true identity?

I haven't though much about Drogon's colors, but what you say is true. It can't be a coincidence that Drogon is black and Ghost white and that they bond with each. In someways its a call back to Balerion the Black Dread.

The concept of a caged identity is pretty cool. So it begs the question what will happen to Ghost when Jon discovers his Targaryen lineage?

Very nice post, love this stuff.

[Ser Creighton]

I am so sorry I was away from the boards for months and I just saw these last two posts.

Kyoshi, yes MolaF has been a great help to me and we have been discussing this topic for a very long time. Thank you for the kind words, though I may have made a mistake and the thread does need to be updated.

As you point out about the Black Wolf, the White wolf and the grey wolf. You see Bran, Dany and Jon all share this sort of parallel with each other. It's not just fire or ice or sun and moon with them. Like Dany has both moon and sun symbolism and drink from the cup of ice and the cup of fire. Jon of course has his blood line ice and fire, and Bran is in a cave with a dragon and a Wight. So the idea is really 3 is to one as one is to 3. If one favors one aspect like Dany favors fire, then another should favor ice in that aspect and another will favor balance. If one favors the symbolism of the mother, another will favor the symbolism of the father, and the other the child. So for me it's really about these 3 getting together for balance. Now if you think about those wolves, what is going on. Jon may be named King on the north by Robb, this happened because he believed his brothers dead. Rick is being sought by Davos to be King in the North or Lord of the North, Bran is the actual King of the North, the grey wolf. Though the problem can really only be solved if the three are together.

Now some say the three = mutual destruction. Ragnarok the destruction in water. And that could be correct as well, but then really you don't need the symbolic examples of balance to exist. Or Neds comment about the Sun needing the moon. You don't need Jon being Targ and Stark. Dany drinking of the cups of ice and fire. You don't ice and fire are natural oppositions and will destroy each other, you don't need a middle ground for that. I tend to think it goes more towards the unity of opposition.

Now getting back to wolves you see how that work. White, Grey and Black. Or even Sansa and Arya, Sansa in the Vale has moon symbolism, it's a full moon. Arya has that half moon symbolism of the faceless men and there is probably a faceless moon out there between them.

Now I do have new cyclical parallel to add. It's been awhile. But there is a nice little clue about the Sun and the Moon in that. I tend to work strictly with inverse parallels in cycles. This one is very cool because it does heavily support what I write about.

The story of the dragons coming. The sun kissed the moon and the dragons born. Beginning of a cycle.

End of the cycle the Dance of the Dragons. This is really cool. On Dragonstone, Lady Baela on Moondancer fought Sunfyre and it ended in the death of both dragons. Before Lady Baela could be killed, Marston Waters saver her. But it was the end of the dragons, they were pretty much done after this.

So along came Dany the moon of Drogo' life and kissed her Sun and Stars. And the Dragons returned, beginning of a new cycle.

Of course this cycle is a bit different, the Ice and Fire are returning at the same time. So it would seem like mutual self destruction, but then you don't need people like Jon, Dany and Bran, sort of sharing this balance.

You have Dany in fire, Bran looks like he may take ice first rather than Jon, but that is the toughest call I have, because Jon can favor ice first as well. But it is not where it starts, it's about where it ends. You know Jon is a natural conciliator, Dany naturally helps people, Bran has this horrible habit of doing what he shouldn't.

At least that's that's how I think it goes. If you look at four people, Dany, Jon and Tyrion also have shared parallels as well, though Tyrion does not lean at all towards Ice. I tend to think of these three as the eventual Dragon riders, where I think of Bran, Jon and Dany as the 3 heads of the dragon. Which may seem strange to some but they don't have to be the same, Martin never said anything like that.

Anyway thank you for posting and thank you Princess and the Queen for Sunfyre, Moondancer and Waters.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Have to say, I really, really enjoyed this thread. I agree on nearly all of your points, brilliant read.

I have always thought the series is mainly about Jon & Dany. I believe them combined represent the AA, Last hero & PTWP prophecies.

I have already recommended to people I know, who like the books to read this.

[jon rhaegar stark]

you must look into some sun reference in TWoIaF

in the long night section

where the sun hides in shame and a girl with monkey tail comes and sings a song which will make the sun to come out

which fits my theory thaT danny will be the one who will bring Jon back and she is the girl with monkey tail

(dragon lady)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Excellent thread Ser C. I must have somehow missed it last spring when you first posted, my bad.

Anyway astute as always, I agree with you completely. :) :bowdown:

ETA: I don't have a Dany quote but here's a Jon one from Mya Stone:

Snow was capitalized.

I just saw this. Snow was capitalized because it's the name of a building.