How far will the ironborn get?

[Lord Reaver]

Remember how the main economy on the islands is based on reaving, this means that the majority of men and some women will be very able fighters.

False. The main economy of the Iron Islands is based on fishing, mining and farming. Reaving is, since the coming of Aegon, not really a major contributor at all.

[Mithras]

The thing is, nobody likes them, they are just like the Thenns but maybe even more vicious and kind of disgusting.

Where does it say that nobody likes the Thenns? Even Jon has some sort of respect for them.

As for the OP, I think Euron is highly overrated and he will only serve to advance the plot for fAegon. He already did one of his main plot purposes, i.e. to send Victarion to Dany. The Iron Islands will be eventually ruled by Rodrik Harlaw. That will be possible after the great defeat they will suffer under the rule of Euron.

[Hippocras]

Where does it say that nobody likes the Thenns? Even Jon has some sort of respect for them.

As for the OP, I think Euron is highly overrated and he will only serve to advance the plot for fAegon. He already did one of his main plot purposes, i.e. to send Victarion to Dany. The Iron Islands will be eventually ruled by Rodrik Harlaw. That will be possible after the great defeat they will suffer under the rule of Euron.

If that was his plot purpose, Martin would have just made Vic a character who would think of it himself and go by his own choice. Come on, think.

Something else is going on.

[Hippocras]

False. The main economy of the Iron Islands is based on fishing, mining and farming. Reaving is, since the coming of Aegon, not really a major contributor at all.

False yourself. All sources make it clear that what you declared false is in fact true.

[Lord Reaver]

False yourself. All sources make it clear that what you declared false is in fact true.

Provide those sources, then.

Here, I'll start. First we have the situation as of "today":

“The islands are stern and stony places, scant of comfort and bleak of prospect. Death is never far here, and life is mean and meager. Men spend their nights drinking ale and arguing over whose lot is worse, the fisherfolk who fight the sea or the farmers who try and scratch a crop from the poor thin soil. If truth be told, the miners have it worse than either, breaking their backs down in the dark, and for what? Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures. Small wonder the ironmen of old turned to raiding.”

Note the "of old" there ? Yeah. Here's some more on how things are not how they once were:

“No longer may we ride the wind with fire and sword, taking what we want. Now we scratch in the ground and toss lines in the sea like other men, and count ourselves lucky if we have salt cod and porridge enough to get us through a winter.”

Finally, we get to how things USED TO BE: "Once I would have kept her as a salt wife in truth, he thought to himself as he slid his fingers through her tangled hair. Once. When we still kept the Old Way, lived by the axe instead of the pick, taking what we would, be it wealth, women, or glory. In those days, the ironborn did not work mines; that was labor for the captives brought back from the hostings, and so too the sorry business of farming and tending goats and sheep."

Note the prevalence of words such as "once" and the use of the past tense, indicating that this is no longer the state of affairs.

Edit: ref. ACOK Theon I.

[Hippocras]

You are ignoring the vast majority of what you yourself are posting to justify your point.

What I see there is abundant evidence that the soil is terrible, agriculture poor, and an activity only considered fit for slaves (who they don't call slaves because they don't buy them). Same for mining.

For them, the only "honourable" occupation is reaving.

They were doing less of that while Robert and Ned were alive and there was general peace making it hard to break out. But they took the first chance they got to go back to reaving as a way of life.

[Aeraz Freefyre]

If that was his plot purpose, Martin would have just made Vic a character who would think of it himself and go by his own choice. Come on, think.

Something else is going on.

In my first answer to the post I didn t want to write too much but actually a part I ve not mentioned is that Vic s pov gives us a clear idea of his intellective potentials (come on he s a bit dumb) but he is fierce and already does not trust the crow s eye,while Euron is clearly one with a big plot who has already reached every goal in his path. that s why I believe the crow s eye wouldn t send Vic there with the horn just to make him get the dragons and Dany. I just don t buy that. Oh and I didn t get the point where Fire eater says moqorro sabotaged the horn,i haven t read other posts on the argument...

[Lord Reaver]

What I see there is abundant evidence that the soil is terrible, agriculture poor, and an activity only considered fit for slaves (who they don't call slaves because they don't buy them). Same for mining.

No, you are ignoring the use of past and present tense. Theon, like his uncles at this point dreams of past glories. He considers mining and farming fit for slaves, but he himself admits that the Ironborn are doing it themselves now.

For them, the only "honourable" occupation is reaving.

Again, that's what Theon thinks, yes, along with his father and uncles. But it isn't the reality of what the Ironborn do. You can agree or disagree with it being "honourable" as you like, the facts are still the facts. Even Theon realizes that.

They were doing less of that while Robert and Ned were alive and there was general peace making it hard to break out. But they took the first chance they got to go back to reaving as a way of life.

Of course they did. The people had been starved for 300 years by a tyrannical king on the IT who had done absolutely nothing for them aside from rob them of their freedom and half their lands. The rulers meanwhile, as Theon demonstrates had been weaned on a diet of past glories. The outcome was eminently predictable.

[Hippocras]

"their lands" were not taken from them. They were given back to the people who actually lived there, who the IB had turned into slaves, and who they never actually wanted around in the first place.

The sigil of House Hoare is a bunch of territorial symbols IN IRON CHAINS.

They clearly do need some land beyond what they have, this I can agree with, but the land is not legitimately theirs if they rule by terror and are proud of it. They made their own mess.

[Lord Reaver]

"their lands" were not taken from them. They were given back to the people who actually lived there, who the IB had turned into slaves, and who they never actually wanted around in the first place.

The lands were theirs by right of conquest as much as they were Aegon's. He didn't give the lands back, he took them for himself. If you're going to lay that at the feet of House Hoare, you have to do the same for House Targaryen.

They clearly do need some land beyond what they have, this I can agree with, but the land is not legitimately theirs if they rule by terror and are proud of it. They made their own mess.

It was theirs by right of conquest. If the riverlords had revolted and taken back their lands, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That wasn't what happened, though. Instead the IT took it all. And if you think Aegon didn't rule by terror, you're severely deluding yourself.

The mess was made by the Iron Throne, which made no attempt to compensate the Ironborn for taking away their way of life and replacing it with....nothing.

[Cas Stark]

The lands were theirs by right of conquest as much as they were Aegon's. He didn't give the lands back, he took them for himself. If you're going to lay that at the feet of House Hoare, you have to do the same for House Targaryen.

It was theirs by right of conquest. If the riverlords had revolted and taken back their lands, I wouldn't have a problem with it. That wasn't what happened, though. Instead the IT took it all. And if you think Aegon didn't rule by terror, you're severely deluding yourself.

The mess was made by the Iron Throne, which made no attempt to compensate the Ironborn for taking away their way of life and replacing it with....nothing.

Sometimes you have to adapt or die. "We do not sow" isn't going to work well in a united kingdom, where everyone that you reave on is subject to the same laws.

[Yukle]

Sometimes you have to adapt or die. "We do not sow" isn't going to work well in a united kingdom, where everyone that you reave on is subject to the same laws.

They keep thralls (effectively slaves) who do all of the work for them. They're not considered people and are not, it seems, protected by any laws.

[Lord Reaver]

They keep thralls (effectively slaves) who do all of the work for them. They're not considered people and are not, it seems, protected by any laws.

Nope. Not anymore. Most of the work now is done by the Ironborn themselves. See the sections I quoted above.

[Yukle]

Nope. Not anymore. Most of the work now is done by the Ironborn themselves. See the sections I quoted above.

I do not disagree. I was suggesting how their logic works according to their ideal situation.

[Lord Reaver]

I do not disagree. I was suggesting how their logic works according to their ideal situation.

You mean how the Old Way worked ? Yes, in that world, menial labour such as farming and mining is done by thralls.

Thing is, what Aegon did was to remove the Old Way (which he disagreed with) and fail to replace it with anything (are we seeing a parallell with his descendant Daenerys yet?). This naturally sets the Ironborn (or at least their leaders) up to want a return to said Old Way.

[Hippocras]

You mean how the Old Way worked ? Yes, in that world, menial labour such as farming and mining is done by thralls.

Thing is, what Aegon did was to remove the Old Way (which he disagreed with) and fail to replace it with anything (are we seeing a parallell with his descendant Daenerys yet?). This naturally sets the Ironborn (or at least their leaders) up to want a return to said Old Way.

This I can agree with.

But then you tend to turn around and go on at length about how any "greenlander" influence is evil. Hate to break it to you, but people who farm and do not live by slavery and theft are "greenlanders"

[Lord Reaver]

But then you tend to turn around and go on at length about how any "greenlander" influence is evil. Hate to break it to you, but people who farm and do not live by slavery and theft are "greenlanders"

Nonsense. Your inability to accept any other way of life is classic greenlander cultural-imperialistic line of thought.

There are many important differences between ironborn culture and greenlander beyond slavery and theft. I can mention the higher degree of freedom for women and the lower classes, the ancient elective method of determining rulers and so on.

[Hippocras]

Nonsense. Your inability to accept any other way of life is classic greenlander cultural-imperialistic line of thought.

see this is why you are clearly a troll.

You accuse others of doing what you yourself are doing.

I advise non-engagement with Lord Reaver folks. He is here to disrupt by making excuses for inexcusable cultural practices. The Ironborn were the imperialsts.

[Waylin Stark]

The Ironborn are a joke.

Dany will use their fleet to get to Westeros, Euron's plans to control a dragon might be successful, but that's about it.

Their "army" is useless. The Tyrells will knock them outta the continent. They're unorganized wild thugs who are up against a powerful army headed by Willas and Garlan motherfucking Tyrell.

Those rapists better be prepared to get raped themselves.

[The Knight of Greenfield]

I like the ironborn hence why i started this thread, however i see there flaws(which there is alot) i do not see them as the perfect society but i do like the many aspects of there culture(kingsmoots, the captains being kings aboard there ships etc). Lord Reaver is just blinded and will contridict himself to attempt to prove himself right.