Heresy 105 The Nights Watch

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 105, the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

For those who haven’t been here before, Heresy is different from most threads in that we look beyond the assumption that all of this will be resolved by the identification of a hero variously known as Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, and that with the aid of the Children of the Forest and Dany’s Amazing Dragons, this hero will rally all Westeros, ending the Game of Thrones and by uniting the factions, save the Seven Kingdoms from the Others. Instead, as heretics, we think that things are not quite as they seem. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and some very surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come.

Beyond that broad agreement there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning those easy assumptions and discussing the possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

THE NIGHTS WATCH

Continuing with the themed threads that proved so popular in Mace’s Centennial project, I think it might be appropriate to take a closer look at the Nights Watch. We have to some extent covered certain doubts about this noble band of brothers in the earlier Timelines thread, but I think it worth going over them again as part of a much wider study pulling in various different aspects of the story and as ever questioning some popular but casual assumptions.

We have to start with the oath of course, which seems an odd one:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Nights Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

What’s striking about it is that to all intents and purposes it’s a religious vow made by warrior monks, like the various crusading orders in our world or the in Martin’s world, but yet not only is there a conspicuous lack of any religious faith sustaining them in their hardships, but no evidence of there ever being such a purpose.

We have in times past looked at a possible connection between I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn and the creed of the Red lot. It’s tempting, but if there ever was such a connection its been lost long long ago.

How long ago is of course a question in itself and we have in the past discussed that dodgy king list which Sam is so suspicious of. All that we really have is that song about them riding into the Battle of the Dawn against the Others. Was that at the end of the Long Night as the song suggests? Or was it more recent?

And then why, if as suggested, the Others haven’t been seen for 8,000 years, why has the Watch lasted so long and why indeed has it grown to occupy all those castles that came after Castle Black, and why collapse so rapidly and completely?

[Black Crow]

Apologies for the blip but I've been at Cubs and things rather got away from me...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

After that discussion of prophecies, translations, and ancient traditions, I must say it's more tempting than ever to read those vows as somehow linked in - what with the darkness and the dawn, the light-bringing figures and whatnot.

While we revisited the partial restatements of the Essos traditions - the AAR and DTWP prophecies (not to mention the Dothraki traditions) - I kept thinking it was too bad there weren't any written, Westerosi based creeds to tie in. For some reason the NW vow didn't occur to me... but it should have. It fits. And it's pretty much all we've got, at least until Old Nan resumes her bedside tale about the Last Hero. (RIP Old Nan.)

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[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Apologies for the blip but I've been at Cubs and things rather got away from me...

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to post a Heresy 104.5 :)

[Urrax2]

Apologies for the blip but I've been at Cubs and things rather got away from me...

You're a baseball fan? :cool4:

[JNR]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to post a Heresy 104.5 :)

Sounds like an FM radio station. ("Less talk. More crock.")

[Black Crow]

And it's pretty much all we've got, at least until Old Nan resumes her bedside tale about the Last Hero. (RIP Old Nan.)

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Well... there's one of the big problems. There's a huge leap from a lone survivor being pursued through the forest to a noble band of brothers riding to victory in a great battle. As Bran remembers it, the Singers helped him, ie; from his pursuers, but there's no suggestion of there being more to the story. We lack, in short, a foundation legend.

[JNR]

I would argue that we have a foundation legend -- the season three Histories spell it out -- but I have previously argued the show is not canon many times, which seems the stronger case.

It might be helpful to sketch out, as an initial point of discussion, the standard interpretation of the Watch (as found in that History) and then zoom in on various aspects of it or information that seems related to it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

After that discussion of prophecies, translations, and ancient traditions, I must say it's more tempting than ever to read those vows as somehow linked in - what with the darkness and the dawn, the light-bringing figures and whatnot.

True. My crazy idea that the last hero decided to leave Westeros for Essos, doesn't seem that crazy with the NW oathoath. There and back again with a new sword and new outlook. Ok, still crazy.

'I shall take no part in the wars of the realm' is not in the oath. It is a guideline I guess. Cannot remember if it is a vow or just a given. Although, to protect the realms of men, how can the NW not be tied up in any affairs of the realm.

[alienarea]

Maybe there are two events that ended the long night and the connection is unknown?

1) The Last Hero finds the CotF and the help him end the long night, i.e. it gets warmer, first rays of sunlight poke through the night, something like that. I have a suspicion that the Last Hero paid with his life for this.

2) When it got warmer, first rays of sunlight came through snd so on, the Others who hate sunlight get weaker and retreat. The Night Watch saddles up and mops them up.

What hints towards this: the Others weren't defeated like totally wiped out, a few might have escaped to the Land of Always Winter biding their time. This implies the Long Night is a cyclical event with a very long cycle, which maybe ties it to the long lifespan of the CotF. Or a comet.

:dunno:

[JNR]

end the long night

This is an area we haven't discussed that much: why was it called the Long Night?

Was that just a metaphor for a dark time?

I'm inclined to think not; I think it was a case of truly extreme winter weather, a cloud layer so thick it literally blocked out much of the sun, like stormclouds prior to rainfall, but sustained for years. A dark enough world that it could be roamed by the Others at will, 24 hours a day, as alienarea implies.

Perhaps, if this was so, it also explains why the Night's Watch has that name, and the Nightfort has that name. They were both meant to defend against a return of the above situation.

the Others weren't defeated like totally wiped out, a few might have escaped to the Land of Always Winter

Another premise that seems likely to me for various reasons.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Maybe there are two events that ended the long night and the connection is unknown?

1) The Last Hero finds the CotF and the help him end the long night, i.e. it gets warmer, first rays of sunlight poke through the night, something like that. I have a suspicion that the Last Hero paid with his life for this.

2) When it got warmer, first rays of sunlight came through snd so on, the Others who hate sunlight get weaker and retreat. The Night Watch saddles up and mops them up.

:dunno:

I have a similar idea that the Long Night ended because of spring. The Others were not actually defeated, just ran out of time and fled north. I did not tie in the Singers though. Your idea that the NW finished off or drove off the Others after they weakened makes sense.

'I am the watcher on the walls' - I believe came from the many fortifications that were held against the Long Night. The origins were the militias that posted up behind these walls throughout the realms. Eventually forged into one army of the Night's Watch.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't agree that humans and the COTF ever fought WWs,that aside according to Old Nan's tale the Others swept across the land,by this i can interpret to mean Wights because i can't see WWs having those kinds of numbers to be called a "sweeping force" ( another example of the term Others does not match WWs,but more the Wights).Then there is the problem is why show yourself if you have maybe 6 dudes.You didn't ever have to be on the field.How did these guys ever loose.

What strikes me as odd is how do you drive away thousands,maybe millions of Wights. Where did they go? How do you drive them away,they seem on their own to be a force to reckon with.There is noway they could have been defeated it is impossible when the rate of the dying compared to the rate of the resurrecting is equal. Which goes to my original point about the Longnight being a cyclical event synonymous with the land. It happens X amount of years and when that happens,we have "The cold"/Wights that comes with that event and the WWs come as well.The season came and the season was over,men didn't do squat to end the LN.

As to the NW i think it was Feather who brought the nights watch being enacted because of the environment.

To go further,from a historical and human point of view. The FM migrate to a land and they are face with weirdness on a different level.Crap hits the fan,you piss off the natives and before you know it you are at war. Looking at the description of COTF "Cats eyes that are yellow,dappled nut brown skin,big ears.They live in caves dark enough where the fish they catch have no eyes. This tells me the COTF were nocturnal and they probably would have done most of their attacks against the FM at night.

Hence it seems plausible this was the origin of the NW,group of dudes who swore to protect the kingdom of men against the things that went bump in the night of this new surroundings.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It is possible the Nights Watch did find a way to successfully push back the winter army. Or someone found a way and brought it to the Night's Watch. In pushing them back North, the lands then cleared would regain sunshine and warmth and the efect would snowball the further north they go.

I have thought about The Battle for the Dawn waged under a passing comet, lighting up the sky. All tied in with the beginings of Spring.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

This is an area we haven't discussed that much: why was it called the Long Night?

Was that just a metaphor for a dark time?

I'm inclined to think not; I think it was a case of truly extreme winter weather, a cloud layer so thick it literally blocked out much of the sun, like stormclouds prior to rainfall, but sustained for years. A dark enough world that it could be roamed by the Others at will, 24 hours a day, as alienarea implies.

Perhaps, if this was so, it also explains why the Night's Watch has that name, and the Nightfort has that name. They were both meant to defend against a return of the above situation.

.

The Long Night seems to be both a literal reference to seasonal mythologies (Midwinter, etc), as well as a metaphorical time of misfortune.

The metaphorical reading is inevitable, I'm afraid - if for no other reason than the present tense rendering of the NW vow: "Night gathers, and now my watch begins..."

.

[JNR]

The Long Night seems to be both a literal reference to seasonal mythologies (Midwinter, etc), as well as a metaphorical time of misfortune. The metaphorical rendering is inevitable, I'm afraid - if for no other reason than the present tense rendering of the NW vow: "Night gathers, and now my watch begins..."

Yes, in this context "night" means not the Long Night, but a lifetime commitment to frozen celibacy, orders from control freaks like Thorne, and bad food.

Which makes me wonder why the Watch has to be a lifetime commitment. I can hardly imagine there was a cheery outcry of volunteers for the first iteration of the Watch.

"We drove away the bad guys and now you're saying... I can never get laid again? I'm sorry... what?!"

That Jon would have wanted to enter the Watch as a teen virgin has always seemed preposterous to me, explicable only by the fact that he imagined being mentored by his uncle.

The argument "he was a bastard and had no better option" seems to ignore the hundreds of other professions he could have chosen, in warm places where sex would have been guilt-free, and if things didn't seem like much fun, he could just... leave.

[Empire]

"I am the sword in the darkness."

Does this refer to a sword illuminating something, or is it referring to keeping evil at bay?

Swords usually do a pretty bad job in the dark...

[JNR]

"I am the sword in the darkness."

Does this refer to a sword illuminating something, or is it referring to keeping evil at bay?

Swords usually do a pretty bad job in the dark...

Pretty sure I see where you're going with this. I like it.

I also just rewatched episode one, season three. The weather is unbelievably bad at the Fist, where the Others and wights have just been. The light and visibility is so low, Sam can barely see thirty feet ahead.

It's Long Nightish indeed, and the Watch could really use a Night light.

Next scene is also beyond the Wall, as Jon prepares to meet Mance, but the weather is crisp and clear. Couldn't be more different.

[Eira Seren]

This is an area we haven't discussed that much: why was it called the Long Night?

Was that just a metaphor for a dark time?

I'm inclined to think not; I think it was a case of truly extreme winter weather, a cloud layer so thick it literally blocked out much of the sun, like stormclouds prior to rainfall, but sustained for years. A dark enough world that it could be roamed by the Others at will, 24 hours a day, as alienarea implies.

Perhaps, if this was so, it also explains why the Night's Watch has that name, and the Nightfort has that name. They were both meant to defend against a return of the above situation.

Not that it's the same, or will turn out the same, but I've started reading GRRM's short story, Bitterblooms. So far in the story, winter is a long-lasting event, years in duration. So the precedent for the idea is there in his earlier work.