Frey Pie Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I get concerned when people see Robb as a major heroic protagonist in this series. That was not the intention folks. He is merely early and mid series filler, like Stannis, Eddard and co.Some of you are way too invested in him. If Martin wanted him to be known as the formidable warrior among the Stark siblings, he would have had him be the better swordsman in the one comparative reference we have between him and Jon. Just like he would have made Greywind the biggest and strongest of the direwolves, as the wolves mirror the roles of their respective masters. But he didn'tHe made Ghost the biggest of the pack.I get concerns when people irrelevant statements and assumptions. Nobody said Robb was a hero. Nobody.George made Robb the best with a lance to even him and Jon out. This isn't saying jon is useless on a horse. They are extremely even and good competitors. Jon later trains with recruits who have never held a sword while Robb continues his training at winterfell and enters a war with his best men and leads every encounter from the front. This is what George tells us. Therefore it is reasonable to assume Robb as a swordsman and warrior progresses possibly to the point where he bridges the small gap between himself and Jon and maybe even goes just past him by the time of his death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I get concerned when people see Robb as a major heroic protagonist in this series. That was not the intention folks. He is merely early and mid series filler, like Stannis, Eddard and co. Stannis is just a filler? Really? I know it's off topic, but I cannot ignore this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkInWinterfell Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I get concerned when people see Robb as a major heroic protagonist in this series. That was not the intention folks. He is merely early and mid series filler, like Stannis, Eddard and co.Some of you are way too invested in him.If Martin wanted him to be known as the formidable warrior among the Stark siblings, he would have had him be the better swordsman in the one comparative reference we have between him and Jon.Just like he would have made Greywind the biggest and strongest of the direwolves, as the wolves mirror the roles of their respective masters. But he didn'tHe made Ghost the biggest of the pack. I get concerned when someone thinks a character being good in battle/fighting/general warfare means they're the 'heroic protaganist' of the entire series. Haven't we established that there's more to these books and each character by now? You seem to be making the mistake you're accusing everybody else of. 'Ghost is the biggest of the pack', 'Jon is the formidable warrior'. It's okay for you to buy into Jon's hype but not for other people to buy into Robb's? 'Some of you are way too invested in him.' Please be sure to let me know exactly how invested I am allowed to be in each character, so I can temper my reactions on my next reread accordingly. I don't even necessarily disagree that Jon would be better in a swordfight than Robb. It's very open for debate. I just think your post is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Robb doesn't have a single confirmed sword duel to his name. During the War of the Five Kings he served an Eddard role, and was constantly surrounded by a ring of bodyguards.Jon was more talented than him to start with, has further trained extensively at the Wall and has had several on screen swordfights with formidable foes.Quite simply, Robb was not even in Jon's league prior to his death.Robb led from the front and fought alongside his men - there are multiple quotes in the books, and I'll post one here for you. Robb came back to her on a different horse, riding a piebald gelding in the place of the grey stallion he had taken down into the valley. The wolf’s head on his shield was slashed half to pieces, raw wood showing where deep gouges had been hacked in the oak, but Robb himself seemed unhurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I don't understand where the myth comes from that Jon has only ever trained with the likes of Pyp co.He trained with them while serving as a recruit but once he became a brother of the NW, he would have trained alongside everyone else. And there were more than just green boys left on the wall after he became Lord Commander.Eastwatch still had plenty of experienced raiders and he sent some out in search of Tormund before they were found by the Weeper which shows that they were there. And if they were there, he very likely would have met in the practice yard ad Jon himself states that he prefers to train with people who will provide him a challenge.We really don't know much about who he spent most of his time fighting besides Iron Emmet, and even he was only mentioned for the sake of that one scene where he blacks out while lost in memory. And if battle experience is what makes for a great swordsman, (which I call BS on in the first place) rangers of the NW ought to be the best fighters in all the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I don't understand where the myth comes from that Jon has only ever trained with the likes of Pyp co.He trained with them while serving as a recruit but once he became a brother of the NW, he would have trained alongside everyone else. And there were more than just green boys left on the wall after he became Lord Commander. I don't think that's what people are getting at but it is true that for a long time his training consisted of beating untrained men. Beyond the wall he couldn't training for a long time and after could only with wildlings. Since he became LC his training has improved no end I agree. Robb in contrast continued to train against professional opponents all his life. We don't have his POV but I did t he stopped his training.In any case at the beginning jon is obviously better. At the time of Robb's death I would say his experience and strength would make him definitely the better warrior. At the time of Jon's death they are likely even or jon has retaken his place in comparison to robb at his peak obviously. All about when your talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking Alesander I Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 King Joffrey BARATHEON is the best fighter Westeros has seen since the Dragonknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNinjaDC Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 In termsl swordsmanship: Loras: Pretty much the top of a tournament knight, and has the backing of a rich family so he can afford time for training. Jon: Trains religiously at the watch, has freaky strength outbursts, and has practical experience. (F)Aegon: Was trained to be the perfect king, including a great fighter. Robb: Trained well with experience, but like with Ned, was much better known for his tactical skill. Gendry: He's like Robert 2, but like with Robert he was made for a war hammer not sword. Joff: Simply, LOL. Unlike the show, he has the build, but he still does not have the mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 In termsl swordsmanship: Loras: Pretty much the top of a tournament knight, and has the backing of a rich family so he can afford time for training. Jon: Trains religiously at the watch, has freaky strength outbursts, and has practical experience. (F)Aegon: Was trained to be the perfect king, including a great fighter. Robb: Trained well with experience, but like with Ned, was much better known for his tactical skill. Gendry: He's like Robert 2, but like with Robert he was made for a war hammer not sword. Joff: Simply, LOL. Unlike the show, he has the build, but he still does not have the mentality. Except that unlike Robert, he has never received any training with weaponry of any kind, and certainly not with swords. Joff would take him apart in a sword fight nine times out of ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Except that unlike Robert, he has never received any training with weaponry of any kind, and certainly not with swords. Joff would take him apart in a sword fight nine times out of ten. Joff's probably more skilled, but he's also a coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Joff's probably more skilled, but he's also a coward. I do not see how that is relevant, my lord. Even a craven will fight valiantly if he has no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I do not see how that is relevant, my lord. Even a craven will fight valiantly if he has no choice. Not Joffrey. When he's in danger he hides behind his mothers skirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Not Joffrey. When he's in danger he hides behind his mothers skirt.Because he has that choice. I am assuming that in this hypothetical situation, a fight must be had. Otherwise Joffrey wins anyway as he would simply have his kingsguard slice poor Gendry into little pieces under normal circumstances.If we assume that both characters have their weapons in hand and a one-on-one fight is unavoidable, Joffrey will fight, and he will probably fight very viciously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Joffrey's Kingsguard isn't in this fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Joffrey's Kingsguard isn't in this fight.That is my point, Joffrey has no one to hide behind, just his sword, which he is much more skilled with than his opponent. I do not see how the fact that he is a sadistic craven will lessen his ability to remove Gendry's head from his shoulders in this circumstance.In fact, being craven might make him that much more savage as he would be horrified at the idea of death. He might even start the fight with evasion but once he realized how far he outclassed the blacksmith in martial skill, Joffrey would take great pleasure in killing him.Probably slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 That is my point, Joffrey has no one to hide behind, just his sword, which he is much more skilled with than his opponent. I do not see how the fact that he is a sadistic craven will lessen his ability to remove Gendry's head from his shoulders in this circumstance.In fact, being craven might make him that much more savage as he would be horrified at the idea of death. He might even start the fight with evasion but once he realized how far he outclassed the blacksmith in martial skill, Joffrey would take great pleasure in killing him.Probably slowly.Just because he doesn't have anyone to hide behind doesn't mean that he won't freeze up when a tall and muscular guy with a warhammer comes running at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypnomagica Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Just because he doesn't have anyone to hide behind doesn't mean that he won't freeze up when a tall and muscular guy with a warhammer comes running at him. Well, Joffrey is also tall and the topic of this thread specifies swordsmanship, so Gendry would not be armed with a war hammer. There is no evidence to support the idea the Joffrey freezes up when placed in dangerous situations, in fact, if we take the Flea Bottom Riot into account, it could be argued that fear actually makes him even more violent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lointain Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 1st: Ser Loras Tyrell . . . . V 2nd Lord Jon Snow <> King Robb Stark 3rd King Aegon VI Targaryen . V 4th Ser Gendry of the Hollow Hill . V 5th Arya Stark . . V 6th Moonboy . . . . V 7th King Joffrey Baratheon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Joffrey would kill Gendry without much effort, obviously, as would all the others. Come on people, Martin goes out of his way to show us how even Dunk is poorly skilled against decent nobles.Is Joffrey a good warrior? No. But if he had no choice but to fight, people severely underestimate him. Placing him behind Gendry is wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Well, Joffrey is also tall and the topic of this thread specifies swordsmanship, so Gendry would not be armed with a war hammer. There is no evidence to support the idea the Joffrey freezes up when placed in dangerous situations, in fact, if we take the Flea Bottom Riot into account, it could be argued that fear actually makes him even more violent. Tall for his age? Sure, but not as big as Gendry. Didn't Brienne mistake him for Renly? Renly was about Roberts size, wasn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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