the better swordsman who is better, aegon,jon,robb joffrey and loras and gendry

[Frey Pie]

I never said he didn't. I just think it was disingenuous to say that he led from the front and was the number one target on the field without mentioning his guards and direwolf.

Ha I wasn't accusing you otherwise and what you say is true. It is worth mentioning though that he did leave them behind on at least one occasion and a direwolf isn't much good against a wall. Also the mortality rate of his bodyguard seems pretty high so he was always in a dangerous position

[joluoto2]

1. Loras- no competition really

2. Jon- trained by a swordsman, his skills have became better due to real battle experience

3. Robb- trained by the same person who trained Jon, not as much battle experience

4. Joff- Have also beem trained by professional swordsmen, is supposed to have been quite good actually. Might have better technique than Jon or Robb, but not as good, due to being cowardly bitch who would run away crying rather than fight (even though he might win if they actually fought)

x) Aegon, we don't know his skill. He can be anywhere on this list, but below Loras.

999999) Gen... why is he even on the list. He's a blacksmith with no training at all.

[Minsc]

2. Jon- trained by a swordsman, his skills have became better due to real battle experience

3. Robb- trained by the same person who trained Jon, not as much battle experience

How does Jon who has been in only one real battle have more real battle experience then Robb who was in numerous real battle experiences while leading the Northern war effort?

[StarkInWinterfell]

1. Loras. Clearly. His talent and skill is an actual defining point of his character.

2/3. Robb and Jon. This could really go either way and I imagine there's very little between them. That's why there's so many threads arguing the question.

4. Aegon, I guess. He has training.

5. Gendry. He certainly wouldn't be more skilled than Joffrey but I think he'd manage to use his size to his advantage. May have picked up a few things travelling with the BwB too.

6. Joffrey. Assuming he doesn't just send one of his Kingsguard to secretly attack the opponent beforehand.

[Rickeen Stark]

1. Loras.

2. Robb.

3. Jon.

4. Joff.

I won't list Gendry or Aegon atm, because, we don't know enough. Gendry with a warhammer? Psht. Swing swing swing, Bobby B incarnate! Aegon is unproven yet, but, he may have his father's natural skill. Be that either Rhaegar's or fat guy from Pentos, who was quite the hot stuff in his day?

Jon is below Robb, because he has only really fought against untrained people and wild men; who may be skilled, ish, but not on the level of trained warriors.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Robb doesn't have a single confirmed sword duel to his name. During the War of the Five Kings he served an Eddard role, and was constantly surrounded by a ring of bodyguards.

Jon was more talented than him to start with, has further trained extensively at the Wall and has had several on screen swordfights with formidable foes.

Quite simply, Robb was not even in Jon's league prior to his death.

[Lee-Sensei]

1. Loras- no competition really

2. Jon- trained by a swordsman, his skills have became better due to real battle experience

3. Robb- trained by the same person who trained Jon, not as much battle experience

4. Joff- Have also beem trained by professional swordsmen, is supposed to have been quite good actually. Might have better technique than Jon or Robb, but not as good, due to being cowardly bitch who would run away crying rather than fight (even though he might win if they actually fought)

x) Aegon, we don't know his skill. He can be anywhere on this list, but below Loras.

999999) Gen... why is he even on the list. He's a blacksmith with no training at all.

It's not impossible that Jon is a better swordsman, but how does he have more battle experience than Robb?

[Free Northman Reborn]

It's not impossible that Jon is a better swordsman, but how does he have more battle experience than Robb?

Because experience as the commander of an army, with an honour guard surrounding you, does not translate to improved one on one swordfighting skills.

Jon's experience is far more valid from a swordfighting development perspective.

[Hypnomagica]

Yeah, Robb in every one of his conflicts was the number one target on the field.

He led from the front as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if at the time of his death, he was better than Jon and competitive with Loras.

He is also surrounded at all times by a retinue of 10+ warriors and his dire wolf. It is unlikely that he was ever put in much actual danger given that he is the king.

And being in battles does not magically make one a better swordsman. Jon is stated in canon to be better with a sword than Robb and we never see or hear of Robb doing nearly as much training during the war. Sure he was in battles but he was always accompanied by a group of companions whose sole purpose was to cut down anyone before Robb ever had to cross blades with them.

Even if you think that he somehow might have become better than Jon over the course of the books, here is no way he is on par with Loras.

EDIT: That number is actually thirty. According to the wiki.

Thirty warriors surrounding him at all times whose only duty is to keep him from harm. Yeah, really don't see a whole lot of combat experience coming from that.

[Lee-Sensei]

And being in battles does not magically make one a better swordsman. Jon is stated in canon to be better with a sword than Robb and we never see or hear of Robb doing nearly as much training during the war. Sure he was in battles but he was always accompanied by a group of companions whose sole purpose was to cut down anyone before Robb ever had to cross blades with them.

Didn't Jon say that?

[Minsc]

Robb doesn't have a single confirmed sword duel to his name. During the War of the Five Kings he served an Eddard role, and was constantly surrounded by a ring of bodyguards.

Jon was more talented than him to start with, has further trained extensively at the Wall and has had several on screen swordfights with formidable foes.

Robb isn't a POV, thus of course we won't get confirmed sword duels to his name.

Jon has trained primarily against chumps that had at most a few weeks training by Thorne, who doesn't care about his job. He only defeated Qhorin because the Halfhand was deliberately losing in hopes of getting Jon into Mance's ranks thus that is hardly impressive.

[joluoto2]

It's not impossible that Jon is a better swordsman, but how does he have more battle experience than Robb?

As Robb has been in battle as the head of an army, most of his experience is from commanding (from the rear so he sees what's going on), not actually from the gritty frontlines. So yes, Jon has more battle experience.

[Rickeen Stark]

Pretty sure Robb fought on the front lines with his men; Grey Wind and him pwning.

[Frey Pie]

Because experience as the commander of an army, with an honour guard surrounding you, does not translate to improved one on one swordfighting skills.

Jon's experience is far more valid from a swordfighting development perspective.

An honour guard of thirty which Robb led. We know he was in the front line of battle. He scaled the walls at the Crag. He had thousands trying to kill him. Yet he survived all with only minor wounds. How does he do this without using his sword a time or two? And against armoured opponents, in two major battles probably a number of well trained knights. Your not going to find a Pyp or Halder in among the 2-3000 knights Jaime had at the WW. Did he continue his training while the army was static? I would expect so. Likely against other highly trained individuals.

All in all Robb's battle experience is far beyond Jon's, his training equal. The difference was minimal between them as jon notes to begin with. Robb grows and becomes stronger fighting men older and more experienced

[Frey Pie]

As Robb has been in battle as the head of an army, most of his experience is from commanding (from the rear so he sees what's going on), not actually from the gritty frontlines. So yes, Jon has more battle experience.

Not true. Robb plans his battle and then leads from the front. This is stated a number of times and is categorically correct. Tywin and Stannis are men who command from the rear, jaime and Robb from the front

[Free Northman Reborn]

Not true. Robb plans his battle and then leads from the front. This is stated a number of times and is categorically correct. Tywin and Stannis are men who command from the rear, jaime and Robb from the front

I get concerned when people see Robb as a major heroic protagonist in this series. That was not the intention folks. He is merely early and mid series filler, like Stannis, Eddard and co.

Some of you are way too invested in him.

If Martin wanted him to be known as the formidable warrior among the Stark siblings, he would have had him be the better swordsman in the one comparative reference we have between him and Jon.

Just like he would have made Greywind the biggest and strongest of the direwolves, as the wolves mirror the roles of their respective masters. But he didn't

He made Ghost the biggest of the pack.

[Jeor Fookin Mormont]

ok i didn't read all of the replies, but so many people are saying Loras and Jon

i like them both but let's be real. like i said in the other thread. Loras admitted his brother Garlan is better than him when it comes to swords

and Mance pretty much took Jon back to school when they sparred

[Lee-Sensei]

I get concerned when people see Robb as a major heroic protagonist in this series. That was not the intention folks. He is merely early and mid series filler, like Stannis, Eddard and co.

Some of you are way too invested in him.

If Martin wanted him to be known as the formidable warrior among the Stark siblings, he would have had him be the better swordsman in the one comparative reference we have between him and Jon.

Just like he would have made Greywind the biggest and strongest of the direwolves, as the wolves mirror the roles of their respective masters. But he didn't

He made Ghost the biggest of the pack.

Again, wasn't Jon the one who made that comparison?

ok i didn't read all of the replies, but so many people are saying Loras and Jon

i like them both but let's be real. like i said in the other thread. Loras admitted his brother Garlan is better than him when it comes to swords

and Mance pretty much took Jon back to school when they sparred

Garlan would beat any of these guys, so I'm not sure why that matters. GRRM has said himself that Loras is among the best warriors in Westeros.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

i like them both but let's be real. like i said in the other thread. Loras admitted his brother Garlan is better than him when it comes to swords

Garlan is not involved in this, and Loras outclasses everyone that is.

[Night's_King]

Wait, what? Gendry?

Have I missed the scene in which he swings a sword?