I don't get Sansa's dislike for Tyrion

[Bea Noleto]

I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

She seems to want to mentally harm Tyrion here, not the Lannisters in general.

It was the people who laughed about him being a dwarf that hurt him. She was just doing the resistance that she could.

And why should she spare his feelings, when he was forcing her to marry him? Tyrion could have said no. Tywin wouldn't have him beaten because of that.

Also, he was conflicted about it at first, but then he thought how nice would it be to be Lord of Winterfell.

[Bea Noleto]

As previously mentioned, those beatings would have eventually killed her. Meryn's armored hand hitting her face with full force could have killed her or caused serious injury. Then him hitting her with his sword... it wouldn't end well. Tyrion put a stop to that. So yeah, you could say she owes him his life.

He did protect her because he needs his hostage alive and he is not a sadist. And Joffrey nor Cersei would have killed or harmed him just for words he said.

There is the Lannister pride above all. Joffrey was acting as a psycho brat, Tyrion was right to scold him and throwing in the dungeons or something would have made it more clear. It just turned against him when there was an actual death to blame him for, and he couldn't have predicted it. He was risking nothing.

[Errant Bard]

The North (the Lannisters foes) would not consider Sansa's marriage to be legitimate; she is forced to "marry" a Lannister on threat of death, and be bedded and impregnated by him, which is still considered rape. Robb Stark knows this is what it is, but must officially disinherit Sansa anyway, because he knows the Lannister side would use it as a political weapon against the North.

That is actually more complicated than this, there are matters or religion and tradition even if it is a forced marriage and, yes, rape. This is what Robb has to say, in a private conversation:

"If I could Id take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There's no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak."

Roose is hardly a model of loyalty, but at this point he was talking to Jaime and Brienne, not to the gallery:

"The girls need not concern you any further, my lady. The Lady Sansa is the dwarf's wife, only the gods can part them now."

And this is what Littlefinger, his deviousness himself, and Sansa say:

"A marriage..." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not... I cannot marry. Father, I..." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark’s daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed. [...]"

This is what Ser Rodrick has to say about Lady Hornwood knowing full well it was rape and murder, after he thought he killed Ramsay:

"Like it or no, Lady Hornwood was his wife. He made her say the vows before both septon and heart tree, and bedded her that very night before witnesses. She signed a will naming him as heir and fixed her seal to it."

Notice how nobody loyal to the Young Wolf, considers Sansa truly Tyrion's wife.

I did not, I looked. everyone who talks about it is disgusted, but still considers her married.

[the trees have eyes]

Only in his eyes.

It's not like Tyrion is a stranger to humiliating people in public, or ordering killed those he does not like, or rigging trials. He knows lies are part of the game.

No I do not think she betrayed him, because Cersei would have killed her (or much worse) if she had not done what she was told. I do not think that you are obligated to die for your employer. Tyrion knows the game. He payed her to have sex with him and he enjoys his sex much more if the woman pretends to actually enjoy it, so he pays for the lies as well. That is what he wanted, that is what she gave him. She owes him nothing beyond that.

Really? Lying in court to get someone executed for a crime they didn't commit and then banging his father doesn't count as a personal betrayal in your eyes?

Kind of taken aback by this......

[SansaSeastar]

And btw, she was 13, not 12, not that it makes that big of a difference.

It's makes no difference at all.

Tyrion is a Lannister, he may be nice to her but so where Joffrey and Cersei in the beginning. I don't think it's weird that she doesn't fully trust him.

Sansa never did anything wrong to Tyrion, besides for not kneeling at their wedding. & like others pointed out before, she can't read his mind, doesn't know what he truly thinks of his family. He may rebel to his family a little but in the end he still does what is best for them, that's what she sees.

& yes, he is a dwarf. Let's be honest here, how many people do you know would like to marry one? I will gladly admit that I wouldn't been to keen on it either.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Really? Lying in court to get someone executed for a crime they didn't commit and then banging his father doesn't count as a personal betrayal in your eyes?

Kind of taken aback by this......

Except it wasn't her choice at all. Shae was forced to bear false witness on Tyrion's "trail"

Big wet tears filled her eyes. "I never meant those things, the queen made me. Please. Your father frightens me so."

I mean look at these lies:

“They plotted it together,” she said, this girl he’d loved. “The Imp and Lady Sansa plotted it after the Young Wolf died. Sansa wanted revenge for her brother and Tyrion meant to have the throne. He was going to kill his sister next”

Who has put words in people's mouths before, making Sansa write letters to Robb, Catelyn, Lysa and Hoster, who is terrified that Tyrion might kill her? Who wants the throne more than anything?

Cersei is the one putting words in people's mouths because she wants vengeance, not justice. Her son was killed. Cersei does not give any damn about justice during the trial of Joffrey's murder. The point is that the sham of the trial isn't Shae's fault. You can't say No to Cersei and expect to live. It was not shae's fault she was in Tywin's bed. Tywin wanted a prostitute there and you can't say "NO" to Tywin Lannister. Yes Shae's presence was emotionally devastating for Tyrion, but it was Tywin inflicting the emotional damage, not Shae. It was Tywin hurting Tyrion emotionally just like he always has done for Tyrion's whole life. Tywin is the asshole. Shae is a tiny piece of the games of thrones, and she gets trampled by some of the most powerful players. What happens to Shae is a tragedy.

[Modesty Lannister]

Except it wasn't her choice at all. Shae was forced to bear false witness on Tyrion's "trail"

I mean look at these lies:

Who has put words in people's mouths before, making Sansa write letters to Robb, Catelyn, Lysa and Hoster, who is terrified that Tyrion might kill her? Who wants the throne more than anything?

Cersei is the one putting words in people's mouths because she wants vengeance, not justice. Her son was killed. Cersei does not give any damn about justice during the trial of Joffrey's murder. The point is that the sham of the trial isn't Shae's fault. You can't say No to Cersei and expect to live. It was not shae's fault she was in Tywin's bed. Tywin wanted a prostitute there and you can't say "NO" to Tywin Lannister. Yes Shae's presence was emotionally devastating for Tyrion, but it was Tywin inflicting the emotional damage, not Shae. It was Tywin hurting Tyrion emotionally just like he always has done for Tyrion's whole life. Tywin is the asshole. Shae is a tiny piece of the games of thrones, and she gets trampled by some of the most powerful players. What happens to Shae is a tragedy.

Do you have any textual proof that Shae was forced to testify against Tyrion at the trial?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Do you have any textual proof that Shae was forced to testify against Tyrion at the trial?

I literally explained it in my previous post :worried:.

[Modesty Lannister]

I literally explained it in my previous post :worried:.

No, you didn't. You quoted what Shae said to Tyrion when caught in Tywin's bed. Do you honestly believe her? Did she look abused in any way with that golden chain around her neck?

[Rickeen Stark]

I believe Shae was forced by Cersei; and as for being in Tyrion's bed, you know he loved the whores and she was attractive. Does she have a choice, really? Hand of the King is a very well paid job, unless that Hand is Tyrion. Then he just hinders your business!

[Modesty Lannister]

I believe Shae was forced by Cersei; and as for being in Tyrion's bed, you know he loved the whores and she was attractive. Does she have a choice, really? Hand of the King is a very well paid job, unless that Hand is Tyrion. Then he just hinders your business!

There is no textual evidence what-so-ever for Shae's motive for testifying against Tyrion. She may have been threatened, she may have been bribed, she may have been on Tywin's payroll from day 1. Whichever was true, she betrayed Tyrion, not because she invented the murder story, but because she humiliated him with the "giant of Lannister" rant, which was completely unnecessary as evidence. That's pure malice. On one of GRRMs public chats, a fan asked him if the tunnel between the tower of the hand and a brothel was created by Tywin? GRRM responded by saying - Interesting theory.

[A wilding]

The textual evidence is:

a ) After the PW Cersei had Shae locked in a cell and told Jaime that she "meant to question her".

b ) Varys (who also testified against Tyrion, and very thoroughly) told Tyrion that the instant Cersei asked him about Shae he would reveal that Shae was Tyrion's mistress.

And, as said already, Shae did not lead with the "Giant of Lannister" line, she blurted it out under cross examination. So if it was pure malice, it was remarkably subtle of her.

[the trees have eyes]

Except it wasn't her choice at all. Shae was forced to bear false witness on Tyrion's "trail"

I mean look at these lies:

Who has put words in people's mouths before, making Sansa write letters to Robb, Catelyn, Lysa and Hoster, who is terrified that Tyrion might kill her? Who wants the throne more than anything?

Cersei is the one putting words in people's mouths because she wants vengeance, not justice. Her son was killed. Cersei does not give any damn about justice during the trial of Joffrey's murder. The point is that the sham of the trial isn't Shae's fault. You can't say No to Cersei and expect to live. It was not shae's fault she was in Tywin's bed. Tywin wanted a prostitute there and you can't say "NO" to Tywin Lannister. Yes Shae's presence was emotionally devastating for Tyrion, but it was Tywin inflicting the emotional damage, not Shae. It was Tywin hurting Tyrion emotionally just like he always has done for Tyrion's whole life. Tywin is the asshole. Shae is a tiny piece of the games of thrones, and she gets trampled by some of the most powerful players. What happens to Shae is a tragedy.

Except it wasn't her choice at all. Shae was forced to bear false witness on Tyrion's "trail"

Like how Tyrion was "forced" to marry Sansa?

She saw an opportunity and she took it and if Tyrion's death was the price of it no big deal to her, she had even more powerful patrons lined up.

Seems a double standard here: Shae good, Tyrion bad.

She's no innocent, far from it, and I don't know why you would even try and exonerate her. She's an actress and she played her part of "helpless maiden violated by the evil dwarf" to perfection.

[Errant Bard]

Really? Lying in court to get someone executed for a crime they didn't commit and then banging his father doesn't count as a personal betrayal in your eyes?

Kind of taken aback by this......

She's no innocent, far from it, and I don't know why you would even try and exonerate her. She's an actress and she played her part of "helpless maiden violated by the evil dwarf" to perfection.

I have no doubt Shae saw an opportunity and took it, just like Bronn did, or that she is a superficial, dumb and somewhat cruel person, or that she probably ad-libbed for maximum effect against Tyrion... even if she indeed was "convinced" to testify (one does not spend some time in Cersei's cells without thinking over one's life choices.)

... however there was no betrayal because she did not owe anything to Tyrion, or more actually it was only in Tyrion's eye that she owed him something because he had convinced himself that they were in love.

Look, you're building some strawman here, nobody is saying Shae is innocent, good or did not help convince Tyrion of kinslaying, all that was said that it was not betrayal. There were many people testifying at the trial, why is she the only one "playing her part" who gets to be a "betrayer" if it is about that? It's not about the trial at all, it's about Tyrion and his (broken) delusions, and his delusions are his alone.

Also, yes, Tyrion was a similar humiliating, lying, murdering jerk to many people, so taking this politically rigged trial personally is some kind of hypocrisy record.

[Modesty Lannister]

Also, yes, Tyrion was a similar humiliating, lying, murdering jerk to many people, so taking this politically rigged trial personally is some kind of hypocrisy record.

Who did Tyrion accuse falsely of murder?

[Daedric Justice]

Of course Shae betrayed Tyrion. At the very least they were supposed to be friends and she stabbed him in the back. She may not have bent the knee and sworn allegiance to him but she certainly owed him more than that. I'd say that anyone who pretended to be Tyrion's friend and then lied to get him killed definitely betrayed him.

[Alaynsa Starne]

If Shae betrayed Tyrion, then I suppose by that reasoning, so did Bronn when he didn't volunteer as a champion during the trial. It's a bit ridiculous. Tyrion knew she was a whore, he knew she was sleeping with him for the money. As in, the key factor in their relationship was money. If Tyrion wanted someone legitimately loving and loyal, then maybe he should have spent more time with people who he didn't have to buy. I guess what I'm mostly confused about is why Tyrion expected anything else.

[Modesty Lannister]

If Shae betrayed Tyrion, then I suppose by that reasoning, so did Bronn when he didn't volunteer as a champion during the trial. It's a bit ridiculous. Tyrion knew she was a whore, he knew she was sleeping with him for the money. As in, the key factor in their relationship was money. If Tyrion wanted someone legitimately loving and loyal, then maybe he should have spent more time with people who he didn't have to buy. I guess what I'm mostly confused about is why Tyrion expected anything else.

So, if one of your employees falsely accuses you of murder and an other employee refuses to be your lawyer, that's exactly the same in your book. Kudos for throwing logic out of the window.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Haha no, what I'm saying is that Tyrion knew that Bronn's sword went to the highest bidder and Shae's ... um ... lady parts went to the highest bidder. Tyrion was outbid.

[Salt 'n' Gravy]

Sansa is willing to forgive people for character traits, such as when she continues to trust in Joffrey and Cercei after she's seen them lie, bully, and betray her and her family. But for being ugly? That's too much to ask of someone like Sansa.

That was in aGoT, when Sansa was still being romantic and naive. She thought that Joffrey and Cersei's actions were due to the stress of the dire wolf attack, not that it was their innermost self using the attack as an excuse to come out from behind the mask. She only realizes the truth after she saw her father beheaded.