Stannis or Euron: Who is the better naval commander?

[Forfax]

Stannis no question, the greatest Naval leader in Westeros.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

Euron hasn't won battles ? What was that little thing at the Shield Islands, then ?

And Victarion didn't do anything more at the Lannister sack than what he usually does: Kill guys in battle. That's pretty much all he's good for. If you think he was capable of planning the assault on the Lannister fleet, you're delusional. Theon points it out: Euron's plan, Vic carried it out.

Stannis defeated the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle. And who was commanding that ? That's right: Victarion. Aka not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Until Euron and Stannis have been tested against each other (which may be never), I'll put my money on Euron.

Vicarion claims at the Kingsmoot that he's commanded in several battles, "l led his longships into many a battle, and never lost but one". He might not be the sharpest tool in the shed (he's an idiot along with the majority of those misbegotten islands) but apparently he is a good naval general.

The fact that Stannis delivered him his only defeat speaks to Stannis being exceptionally good, not Victarion being bad.

[averde]

Euron has no experience whatsoever fighting a large scale naval battle. We know he was a pirate and raider and did very well at those things so he may be able to captain his own ship very well, but we haven't been shown any evidence that Euron would do well commanding a fleet.

Stannis on the other hand has the experience and proven himself to be a very able naval commander.

So Stannis.

[The Mother of The Others]

Hopefully we'll get to find out when these two teams face each other in the playoffs, which is better than sports talk radio what-if scenarios.

It'd be so funny if Melisandre just equipped Stannis' ship with a huge magnet on its mast and nobody knew why until Euron rammed Stan's ship and when he tried to board the huge magnet lifted his silly armor-wearing ass into the air and "clang!" he's hanging from the magnet like a baby who needs his diaper changed.

[PrinceHenryris]

Stannis no question, the greatest Naval leader in Westeros.

Then why didn't he command his fleet on the Blackwater? At the very least he should have put someone competent (Davos) in charge rather than the incompetent Imry Flory.

[E-Ro]

Then why didn't he command his fleet on the Blackwater? At the very least he should have put someone competent (Davos) in charge rather than the incompetent Imry Flory.

Its called politics.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Hopefully we'll get to find out when these two teams face each other in the playoffs, which is better than sports talk radio what-if scenarios.

It'd be so funny if Melisandre just equipped Stannis' ship with a huge magnet on its mast and nobody knew why until Euron rammed Stan's ship and when he tried to board the huge magnet lifted his silly armor-wearing ass into the air and "clang!" he's hanging from the magnet like a baby who needs his diaper changed.

Haha!! If westeros had magnets....wow!

[Forfax]

Then why didn't he command his fleet on the Blackwater? At the very least he should have put someone competent (Davos) in charge rather than the incompetent Imry Flory.

It is impossible to lead both a naval and land invasion at the same time, Stannis chose to lead the land battle because it was the more important one and more dangerous one.

The Lannister fleet was laughable and posed no threat so obviously the land battle was more vital(Stannis had no idea about the Wildfyre)

Ser Imry isn't really to blame as much, wildfire wasn't even known to be used like that, you can't really blame him that much

"Maybe I should send scouts in case they might have some Wildfire in hand?" No one knew Wildfire could be used like that.

[Boarsbane]

It is impossible to lead both a naval and land invasion at the same time, Stannis chose to lead the land battle because it was the more important one and more dangerous one.

The Lannister fleet was laughable and posed no threat so obviously the land battle was more vital(Stannis had no idea about the Wildfyre)

Ser Imry isn't really to blame as much, wildfire wasn't even known to be used like that, you can't really blame him that much

"Maybe I should send scouts in case they might have some Wildfire in hand?" No one knew Wildfire could be used like that.

They do actually know about the wildfire, they just don't realize how much the Lannisters have. And rushing ahead without sending scouts in first is almost always a terrible idea.

[Forfax]

They do actually know about the wildfire, they just don't realize how much the Lannisters have. And rushing ahead without sending scouts is almost always a terrible idea.

No one knew it could be used like that, but my point is you can't blame Ser Imrys error as a error of Stannis

[Boarsbane]

No one knew it could be used like that, but my point is you can't blame Ser Imrys error as a error of Stannis

You can blame him for putting an incompetent moron in charge of his fleet, but you are right it has nothing to do with him being a good naval commander.

[PrinceHenryris]

Its called politics.

Then command the fleet yourself nd avoid the problem.

[GallowsKnight]

Then command the fleet yourself nd avoid the problem.

And leave the more important larger land army of dubious loyalty under someone else. No thank you.

Florent's plan wasn't bad. They had numerical superiority and they'd use that to quickly secure the bay while soldiers landed on the banks. What people forget is that Tyrion sacrificed the fleet the Lannister did have. So any scouts would have only seen Warships. Tyrion was saving the Wildfire for when the largest group were engaged.

There were thing he could have done better, secure the chain towers, send the pirates first as fodder. But really it was a solid plan hit by a crazy strategy never used in Westeros before (and probably never again).

[Stormland's Fury]

I might be biased, but I give Stannis the benefit of doubt.

The fact that Victarion really resents his defeat is a good indicator that the Iron Fleet was not used to losing in their element. I would also assume that Stannis' men would be more disciplined than the Ironborn under Euron's leadership, which has certainly it's advantages. (although Imry fucked up)

We don't know that much about about Euron so he could be better than Stannis, but why was Victarion put in charge of the Iron Fleet and not Euron? Euron is even the older brother.

Also the Shield islands were not expecting an attack, while King's Landing was anticipating the Battle of Blackwater some time in advance, is the capital and was fortified with everything they could assemble. Stannis was also leading the ground troops from the Kingswood and was not actually with his fleet, so he didn't really command the naval portion of the battle.

That said, I expect to see more of Euron fighting, so we may get a better picture of his capabilities. If Stannis survives his upcoming battle, his journey could lead to a clash with Ironborn at some point, so maybe we'll know for sure.

[Stormland's Fury]

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[Lord Reaver]

We don't know that much about about Euron so he could be better than Stannis, but why was Victarion put in charge of the Iron Fleet and not Euron? Euron is even the older brother.

Because Vic is loyal to a fault, while Euron is an evil genius. Balon knows this, they're his brothers. If Euron got command of the Iron Fleet and time to gain the loyalty of it's captains, Balon's days as Lord Paramount would have been numbered.

Also the Shield islands were not expecting an attack, while King's Landing was anticipating the Battle of Blackwater some time in advance, is the capital and was fortified with everything they could assemble.

The Shield Islands are always ready for attacks, that much is clear from the description and the fact they've deterred raiders for 2000 years.

Tell me, what was Stannis' brilliant plan for blackwater ? Send everything against the mud gate. Win. Yes, clearly tactical genius there.

Compare that to Euron's plan against the Shield Islands, where he did a maneuvre nobody else would have dreamed of (sailing the fleet off the coast) and trapped the Shield Island's ships much like Stannis had trapped Vic.

[Stormland's Fury]

Because Vic is loyal to a fault, while Euron is an evil genius. Balon knows this, they're his brothers. If Euron got command of the Iron Fleet and time to gain the loyalty of it's captains, Balon's days as Lord Paramount would have been numbered.

The Shield Islands are always ready for attacks, that much is clear from the description and the fact they've deterred raiders for 2000 years.

Tell me, what was Stannis' brilliant plan for blackwater ? Send everything against the mud gate. Win. Yes, clearly tactical genius there.

Compare that to Euron's plan against the Shield Islands, where he did a maneuvre nobody else would have dreamed of (sailing the fleet off the coast) and trapped the Shield Island's ships much like Stannis had trapped Vic.

1) agreed

2) Yes, but there is a difference if someone attacks the royal family who has ample time to prepare and uses is extensive resources, backed by the richest family in the country and taking the entrance to the Reach by surprise with the biggest navy in the realm. Sailing off the coast is not to hard for a seafaring people, or at least it shouldn't.

Stannis had also a big part on land and eventually he would have gone through the gate if he wasn't surprised. Granted it didn't worked out but nonetheless he was on his way.

Also there was no real naval battle at Blackwater, the ships were there to land his troops mostly. The main battle was still on mainland against the most defended city at that time.

The Ironborn are an island nation that conquered smaller islands with full force. Of course they are going to win. Euron did it the clever way, that's sure, but there's no way they could have lost either way.

I don't even know if we compare the two battles, otherwise we can also take in account that Stannis reached the wall and surprised the Wildlings. But that would be silly.

[Chatty Duelist]

Well, Euron carried out an amphibious assault that actually worked, as opposed to became a horrible defeat.

Stannis took Dragonstone by amphibious assault and it worked splendidly.

[Lord Reaver]

Sailing off the coast is not to hard for a seafaring people, or at least it shouldn't.

You try it without a compass (the vikings did actually have primitive compass-like technology, but nothing has indicated Euron has this). Also, there's a difference between sailing one ship off the coast (Euron has clearly done this plenty of times) and sailing and keeping an entire fleet together while doing so. Clearly nobody has, or the Mander wouldn't have been closed to the Ironborn for 2000 years, and Euron never would have caught the Shield Islands off-guard.

Stannis had also a big part on land and eventually he would have gone through the gate if he wasn't surprised. Granted it didn't worked out but nonetheless he was on his way.

Euron likewise played his role on land, by leading the assault on the Shield Island keeps.

Also there was no naval real battle at Blackwater, the ships were there to land his troops mostly. The main battle was still on mainland against the most defended city at that time.

I'm comparing the two because they're both amphibical operations with the same goal: To take holdings on land. We can't compare naval battles (seen in the books) because we have no information about Euron in that regard.

The Ironborn are an island nation that conquered smaller islands with full force. Of course they are going to win. Euron did it the clever way, that's sure, but there's no way they could have lost either way.

Those smaller islands are supported by the biggest, most populated region in Westeros. If they were so easy to take, the Ironborn wouldn't have waited 2000 years to do so.

I don't even know if we compare the two battles, otherwise we can also take in account that Stannis reached the wall and surprised the Wildlings. But that would be silly.

Yes, that would be silly indeed, because that was never an amphibious assault the landing and fighting was days if not weeks apart. The two in question are.

[Lord Reaver]

Stannis took Dragonstone by amphibious assault and it worked splendidly.

Yeah, tell me again when that assault was and how large the opposing forces were. Holy crap, a monkey could have commanded that and won. You basically have the entire army of the 7k against a tiny garrison who's already ready to surrender and sell the Targaryens.