Had Jon accepted Stannis offer, would the North declare for him?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What? Robb was his bannermen, why bow to him? The north brought itself to the throne and Stannis was owed Robb's loyalty. Robb was a rebel king. A king to all men that served him but not by any rights or laws.

Robb owed Stannis? Stannis was not the King yet (not is the King now), the King was Joffrey and he cut his father's head. Robb's rebellion was against Joffrey, not Stannis.

Considering the reason Ned was killed, Robb had no choice but believe his father's word and accept Stannis as a King and that could have helped Stannis to gain the crown. But Stannis dismissed Robb at first mention without even considering that Robb was calling his men against Joffrey, not him and simply accusing him of being a traitor without considering the evidences.

[Wmarshal]

Robb owed Stannis? Stannis was not the King yet (not is the King now), the King was Joffrey and he cut his father's head. Robb's rebellion was against Joffrey, not Stannis.

Considering the reason Ned was killed, Robb had no choice but believe his father's word and accept Stannis as a King and that could have helped Stannis to gain the crown. But Stannis dismissed Robb at first mention without even considering that Robb was calling his men against Joffrey, not him and simply accusing him of being a traitor without considering the evidences.

Yeah, he did, Joffrey was false, a fact most of the North believes in.

Robb was a traitor, instead of declaring for Stannis he made himself a king.

[-Winterfellian-]

Only someone completely allien to Northern culture or in what makes people tick in general, like Stannis could have conveived that the northernmen will flock to a deserter bastard who accepted one of the most important and historic landmarks in the North from a Southern pretender to the IT, only to burn its 8000 year old Heart tree. This exactly what Jon would have look like had he accepted the offer.

Burning the heart tree was a must to save Jon's face as a deserter, and by extension Stannis, as it would have proclaimed that Jon's vows to the NW were nulified. Denying or burning the Old Gods is the equivalent of proclaiming the vows to the NW were never truly valid and therefore Jon isn't a deserter. It was never asked for theological reasons, but for political ones

[Wmarshal]

Only someone completely allien to Northern culture or in what makes people tick in general, like Stannis could have conveived that the northernmen will flock to a deserter bastard who accepted one of the most important and historic landmarks in the North from a Southern pretender to the IT, only to burn its 8000 year old Heart tree. This exactly what Jon would have look like had he accepted the offer.

Burning the heart tree was a must to save Jon's face as a deserter, and by extension Stannis, as it would have proclaimed that Jon's vows to the NW were nulified. Denying or burning the Old Gods is the equivalent of proclaiming the vows to the NW were never truly valid and therefore Jon isn't a deserter. It was never asked for theological reasons, but for political ones

No one would care, oaths are oaths, a guy can't just leave because he no longer believes in his gods, if this was true Sam was never apart of the NW.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, he did, Joffrey was false, a fact most of the North believes in.

Robb was a traitor, instead of declaring for Stannis he made himself a king.

King in the North, not Westeros. The Starks were kings before they decided to bend the knee. They bent the knee to the Targaryens, and then supported Robert's Rebellion. But both the Targaryens and Robert were gone and the only one left was a child product of incest who killed a Stark and whose uncle tried to kill another one. The North was right pulling themselves apart because they didn't recognise the King at all. Joffrey was the King in King's Landing, not Stannis. And Stannis didn't want to accept their claim, which was completely justified.

[Wmarshal]

King in the North, not Westeros. The Starks were kings before they decided to bend the knee. They bent the knee to the Targaryens, and then supported Robert's Rebellion. But both the Targaryens and Robert were gone and the only one left was a child product of incest who killed a Stark and whose uncle tried to kill another one. The North was right pulling themselves apart because they didn't recognise the King at all. Joffrey was the King in King's Landing, not Stannis. And Stannis didn't want to accept their claim, which was completely justified.

North is apart of westeros, and all Stannis'. So was every nobles ancestor if you go far back enough. Robert's heir was Stannis. No they weren't, Stannis gave no cause to abondan the realm, as Aerys did. Joffrey was a usurper a fact the North agreed on. They had no claim, Stannis was owed their loyalty, Robb did not give it.

[illrede]

North is apart of westeros, and all Stannis'. So was every nobles ancestor if you go far back enough. Robert's heir was Stannis. No they weren't, Stannis gave no cause to abondan the realm, as Aerys did. Joffrey was a usurper a fact the North agreed on. They had no claim, Stannis was owed their loyalty, Robb did not give it.

It's a grey area. Stannis allowed that the North had a legitimate argument in Robb Stark. One that he legitimatly contested, and that lethally.

[Wmarshal]

It's a grey area. Stannis allowed that the North had a legitimate argument in Robb Stark. One that he legitimatly contested, and that lethally.

Stannis said a northmen could full heartedly believe in Robb, where Renly's men knew he was wrong in every way. Robb had room to breath but it does not make his claim true.

[illrede]

Stannis said a northmen could full heartedly believe in Robb, where Renly's men knew he was wrong in every way. Robb had room to breath but it does not make his claim true.

It makes him a usurper stealing half his kingdom. Two legitimacies can conflict and kill each other in job lots, you know.

[The Wolves]

North is apart of westeros, and all Stannis'. So was every nobles ancestor if you go far back enough. Robert's heir was Stannis. No they weren't, Stannis gave no cause to abondan the realm, as Aerys did. Joffrey was a usurper a fact the North agreed on. They had no claim, Stannis was owed their loyalty, Robb did not give it.

Stannis is not the rightful ruler that throne is and will always belong to the Targaryens, Stannis' bitch brother usurped the throne and Robb owed him nothing.

Anyways for thousands of years the North recognized the Starks as kings and rulers Stannis cannot comprehend that loyalty and history, he is owed NOTHING from the North let along loyalty or recognition for a crown that was stolen from the rightful rulers of Westerosi.

[Wmarshal]

Stannis is not the rightful ruler that throne is and will always belong to the Targaryens, Stannis' bitch brother usurped the throne and Robb owed him nothing.

Anyways for thousands of years the North recognized the Starks as kings and rulers Stannis cannot comprehend that loyalty and history, he is owed NOTHING from the North let along loyalty or recognition for a crown that was stolen from the rightful rulers of Westerosi.

Yeah he was, Bobby beat the Targs and everyone including th North bowed to him, Robb owed him everything.

And for thousands of years the the blackwoods, Brackens, Yronwoods, and Boltons ruled as kings, do they have room to rebel? No. Because they swore fealty to kings and lords. Stannis was their king by every right, and Targs are kings of nothing.

[The Wolves]

Yeah he was, Bobby beat the Targs and everyone including th North bowed to him, Robb owed him everything.

And for thousands of years the the blackwoods, Brackens, Yronwoods, and Boltons ruled as kings, do they have room to rebel? No. Because they swore fealty to kings and lords. Stannis was their king by every right, and Targs are kings of nothing.

Robb swore no oath to anyone baring the name Baratheon, he also owed Stannis Baratheons NOTHING, and Stannis was beaten by the Lannisters so therefore he is not the rightful King until he can get the throne by might because that is what the Lannisters did which is get the throne by might and deception but so did Stannis and he lost.

[-Winterfellian-]

No one would care, oaths are oaths, a guy can't just leave because he no longer believes in his gods, if this was true Sam was never apart of the NW.

Exactly!

Which is why Stannis' offer makes no sense. Is bad enough that Jon is a bastard and accepting the offer makes him a deserter, add to that the desecration of the Heart Tree and the fact that the offer is made by a Southron pretender who by their own admission means nothing to them and you got a very toxic PR mess.

People would not have care about a technicality like "he no longer believe in his Gods" so profaning the Heart Tree serve for no other purpose than alienating the Northmen. But Stannis and Mel do not understand their targeted audience and so they considered the step necessary for political reasons.

[Wmarshal]

Robb swore no oath to anyone baring the name Baratheon, he also owed Stannis Baratheons NOTHING, and Stannis was beaten by the Lannisters so therefore he is not the rightful King until he can get the throne by might because that is what the Lannisters did which is get the throne by might and deception but so did Stannis and he lost.

Robb was lord of winterfell which is a title serving under the king of Westeros. He did owe Stannis, his arms and loyalty as all lords. Stannis was not killed or surrendered, he is still the rightful king. The lannisters won no throne by might but pretending,, a fact the north knows and accept, Stannis is their true king.

[The Wolves]

Robb was lord of winterfell which is a title serving under the king of Westeros. He did owe Stannis, his arms and loyalty as all lords. Stannis was not killed or surrendered, he is still the rightful king. The lannisters won no throne by might but pretending,, a fact the north knows and accept, Stannis is their true king.

Many Northernmen do not recognize Stannis as their King if a Stark continued with the independence of the North and called themselves King/Queen than I doubt that Stannis would have many or any Northernmen recognizing him as their King.

Nobody in the North wants Stannis as their King or in the Vale, Riverlands, Dorne, Reach, etc.... The only reason Stannis is still standing is because of luck. And the Lannisters kicked his ass at Blackwater they took the throne by right.

And no the Northmen don't care about the Lannisters pretending about a ugly throne they cared that they killed their liege lord, that's why they wanted independence. Stannis and the Northmen's wants and goals are very different because they don't give two decks about a ugly chair.

[Wmarshal]

Many Northernmen do not recognize Stannis as their King if a Stark continued with the independence of the North and called themselves King/Queen than I doubt that Stannis would have many or any Northernmen recognizing him as their King.

Nobody in the North wants Stannis as their King or in the Vale, Riverlands, Dorne, Reach, etc.... The only reason Stannis is still standing is because of luck. And the Lannisters kicked his ass at Blackwater they took the throne by right.

And no the Northmen don't care about the Lannisters pretending about a ugly throne they cared that they killed their liege lord, that's why they wanted independence. Stannis and the Northmen's wants and goals are very different because they don't give two decks about a ugly chair.

Many a northmen were traitorous, as were the men in the reach, Vale, Dorne, and Riverlands. None of this makes Robb's claim true, he was a traitor. No they didn't, claims aren't one in single battles, but complete victory.

They were traitors who knew Stannis was their true king.

[The Wolves]

Many a northmen were traitorous, as were the men in the reach, Vale, Dorne, and Riverlands. None of this makes Robb's claim true, he was a traitor. No they didn't, claims aren't one in single battles, but complete victory.

They were traitors who knew Stannis was their true king.

They knew alright when they proclaimed Robb King In the North.

Their relationship and history to the Starks outweighs anything that they supposedly owe Stannis IMO and in theirs.

All the throne have brought them was grief and death, the Northmen don't care about that throne at all why they should fight for something that has bought them nothing good is beyond me. And they don't owe anything to Stannis when he means nothing to them.

[Wmarshal]

They knew alright when they proclaimed Robb King In the North.

Their relationship and history to the Starks outweighs anything that they supposedly owe Stannis IMO and in theirs.

All the throne have brought them was grief and death, the Northmen don't care about that throne at all why they should fight for something that has bought them nothing good is beyond me. And they don't owe anything to Stannis when he means nothing to them.

Which was traitious.

If this is room to declare anything, then the boltons have room to declare themselves kings as well as the blackwoods, and Brackens.

If this was room to do anything then peasant folk can rebel against their northern lords, because the only thing they have brought them is death.

[The Wolves]

Which was traitious.

If this is room to declare anything, then the boltons have room to declare themselves kings as well as the blackwoods, and Brackens.

If this was room to do anything then peasant folk can rebel against their northern lords, because the only thing they have brought them is death.

I'm okay with everybody declaring themselves kings(which ironically Robb never declare himself king all his lords and bannermen did that by the way, the North and Riverlands)practically everybody has in one way or another have done so in the books at one point.

And yes the smallfolk should rebel cause all the nobles do is bring death and destruction they would be justified to rebel.

[jarl the climber]

At one point Davos expressed the belief that the North might rise for a feigned boy, Stannis would not go along with it but the North might, so its possible that they may have risen up for Jon but if he went through with burning the heart tree I think all true Northmen would have been disgusted and no, I do not think Stannis would have modified this condition.