Heresy 107

[Yield.]

There is also the possibility that it would have come to war anyway even without Lyanna's abduction considering Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and all that alliance building of him. And Rhaegar was not fond of his father and may have been plotting to replace him himself. So for me it is easy to see how Lyanna would not blame Rhaegar for Aerys' actions. In fact I believe this is something they might have bonded over, both despising their fathers.

Oh and by the way it is Armstark ;)

Whoops sorry about that! I fixed it :)

Not sure Lyanna despised Rickard but I would imagine she was none too thrilled with his decision to marry her to Robert. There might have been some tension their and possibly some tantrums but I wouldn't say hate.

On the other hand I do think if Rhaegar got infuriated by what his dad did and showed that to Lyanna I can see them bonding over hating Aerys. But we don't have that evidence unfortunately. But it could be likely.

Rhaegar was trying to displace Aerys though and I agree it probably would have come to civil war again if he was quietly take action to align houses in his favour. Would stealing Lyanna have helped his cause though is the question. It turns out to have been a rather large faux pas on his part since logically and historically it did turn the Warden of the North against him and it would have alienated Dorne since he was essentially setting Elia aside. So he got the war he wasn't expecting instead. If you see what I mean.

[Black Crow]

Weren't we also told that this "abductee" also didn't handle the death of Bael very well? I seem to recall that as the story goes she jumped from a tower to her death out of grief?

Sounds like she may have been a little more infatuated with Bael than you're implying here, if the stories are to be believed at all.

It does, but throwing himself/herself off a tall building for grief is pretty much a staple of folklore whether it actually happened or not. Ashara Dayne being another example here.

In this case there are a couple of problems with the flinging from the tower, first its an awful long time to pass between birth and apotheosis with no contact in between and secondly Jon doesn't know the story - keeping the bit about Bael quiet is one thing but a ?x great granny chucking herself off a tower is a different matter and the whole business of young Stark growing up to slay his father is a bit too ballad like.

[Lexicon]

JNR- (sorry, on my phone with limited formatting capabilities).

Really, not trying to harp on the hair color factor, but want to keep the folks in perspective of the Herculean scope of bringing this book to TV.

Cersei- wig

Dany- wig

Mel-wig

Jon Snow (1st season)- wig (until he grew his lovely locks out)

Sansa- natural blonde and dyes her hair red

And copious amounts of extensions for a ton of other folks

That being said, yes, Continuity Dept. should have picked up on these things that we book readers scrutinize over. FFS, GRRM is a producer on the show so at least he should have caught some of these things! However, Production shoots at least 4-6 mos over a minimum of 3 locations. That means you have 1st, 2nd,3rd and many more Units shooting simultaneously. Nit to mention they are essentially shooting 5 feature length films in an incredibly short amount of time per season! Alot of these messups could be a matter of "Nikolaj doesnt look particularily awesome with frosty highlights on camera" " well crap, cut his hair (to symbolize the change he is going through) and lets move on." Once the footage makes it to editing someone could have said "well, appears Tyrions hair has gotten quite a bit darker." " Yeah, I noticed that too, can't go back and reshoot though so we gotta roll with it". Now multiply those conversations by a hundred...stuff is going to slip through the cracks. It just is. They have a 10 month turn-around to hand this stuff in and continue moving forward. some stuff is naturally going to get diluted.

Nevertheless, giving Thenns some Bronze wouldn't have been too hard I agree, but, for tv story purposes "they gotta look different to show the audience the differentiation in the tribes". That's that.

Production has to stay on schedule, move the story forward, and hand in footage. It's just relevant that we critical book readers keep certain elements in scope and perspective.

Frankly, I was glad to see a moment of screen time where they even mentioned Dayne and Dunk. Kudos!

Anyways, just thought some of this stuff would be informative. Quotes are all my hypothetical conversations. ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...in both the Bael story and in Dany's arc these girls both grow to love their captor and husband. As Armstrong pointed out upthread, the Stark mother in that story throws herself off a tower when her son comes home with his father's head on a spike. Now this could also be taken as her guilt over never telling her son who his father was (and here we have a nice parallel to Ned's spirit being sad about something to do with Jon in the crypts) and being overwhelmed at the sight and knowledge of what her son did and perceiving at as all her fault. But it can be interpreted as love for the man that saved the Stark name and justifiably so.

That's true - though in the Bael story, I have taken this to be one (of many) illustrations Martin provides of the fact that marriage changes people. It's hard to apply that same interpretation to Lyanna in the same way, because we just don't have any information regarding how she felt about Rhaegar... although (and I admit this grudgingly) the grafting metaphor might fit either way. In Shakespeare's Rape of Lucrece, the grafting image represents the violent sexual act of rape; in the Webster's Duchess of Malfi, grafting is used as a metaphor for a secret marriage and the child of that relationship. (This is one of those situations where I think Martin's ambiguity serves him well - and I sort of hope he doesn't resolve it - because it leaves both of these possible allusions available to the reader.)

Dany however does, as you say, own her adulthood. The veil of childhood lifts and she sees the truth of her world. I would imagine that Lyanna who spent time with a brother like Brandon who was a bit of a ladies man (Martin has said he might have more than a few bastards around the North) would know the ins and outs of relationships. She is, at 14, adult enough to recognise that Bobby boy will not keep to one bed. She is more mature than Ned at that point who thinks love will keep Bob at Lya's side. So yes I can see her choosing to go with someone powerful enough to protect her once she breaks her word/promise. Little would she know or even think that brash ol' Bob would got to war just cause he was cockblocked.

This is not to say that Lya left with Rhae for love. I think it much more likely that she figured he's the Silver Prince, he will keep me safe from daddy and Bobby's wroth. Would she have grown to love him? Meh it's possible. A year for a teenager is a long time. But we have to also remember that she would have had to overcome what was done to her brother and father rather quickly in order to have conceived Jon. A matter of 3 months max. This is what I find hard to swallow.

Yes, I don't think of Lyanna as being "sheltered" ... or at least, not sheltered very well. She's not orphaned and sold like Dany is, and she's certainly not thrown into a warzone and left to own devices to survive like Arya is (...or was she?...), but we do get the sense that she's not like Sansa. She's got "the wolf-blood" according to Ned... which sounds different from the way Sansa was taught to "armor" herself with courtesy.

Now, in spite of the 20th century kidnapping analogies I made above - I do think there is important information yet to be revealed about Lyanna's situation, and it's possible (even probable, as JNR notes) that Rhaegar was more sympathetic than your run-of-the-mill psychotic rapist. One thing I expect we'll find out is that Rhaegar and Aerys had been in a serious power struggle for some time - and depending on how intense that conflict was, I wonder how much Lyanna really would have held the deaths of her brother and father against Rhaegar? If Aerys knew his son had absconded with the Stark girl, could his torture and murder of the Stark men actually have been a shot at Rhaegar? Who knows. But I sort of imagine that Rhaegar, of all people, would have recognized his father's madness early on - and given the nature of the Kingsguard set-up, getting his father institutionalized would have taken some work. In other words, any transition of power from Aerys to Rhaegar was going to require KG approval. Ironically, it may be that LC Hightower was not convinced to support such a transition until the Brandon/Rickard Stark situation... by which time everything had already gone to hell.

...especially when seen in light of how Sansa is with Tyrion. She can't get past what was done to her mother and brother enough to even trust Tyrion (who by all accounts is very good to her) let alone love him.

Nice tie-in of Sansa to the Lyanna situation. Obviously there are plenty of reasons Sansa can't love Tyrion - one of which is his physical appearance... not an issue Rhaegar would have had to overcome apparently. But if Jon is Rhaegar's son, we might take Sansa's situation as evidence that there was something different going on in Lyanna's story. Conflict between Rhaegar and Aerys might make a significant enough difference, there. Or you could go the other way, and guess that maybe Rhaegar is not Jon's father after all. The information gap is just too big for now...

[Black Crow]

...The second is that he embraces the cold. With the help of Ghost he allows the cold to preserve his life. In other words let the cold in before he physically dies and let it freeze his wounds so that he doesn't continue to bleed out. In this case he will be similar but not the same as Coldhands. In other word he would be like the Snow Queen unaffected by the cold because it is her (his) element entirely. He would be alive and 'frozen fire'. Just as Dany embraces the fire within her and it allows her to bring Drogon to heel so that she can ride him and even have a measure of control at this early stage in their relationship, Jon will do something similar with the ice within him. Tame it and make it his strength.

The more I think about it the more crackpot it gets so i think I will leave here... :unsure:

I don't know about crackpot, because I think that this might be what's so special about the Starks and Winter - that they do have cold inside them and that's why Coldhands isn't a wight and perhaps why Jon may also become Coldhands. The only reservation I have on this is that the comment by GRRM about him being pursued through the forest mentioned him needing to find food

[Yield.]

Side note: I wonder how wildlings who scale the Wall, and steal women, then get those women back over the Wall? Seems like that would be quite a chore.

Ha! I've wonder this myself. Do they put them in a sack and haul them up the Wall and then drop them by tether down the other side? Or carry them piggyback all the way up and down? Either way it seems more trouble than it's worth if you have a screaming, struggling woman to deal with.

On the other hand if they look like what I have, in the last few years, been imaging Val to look like then it might be worth it. ;)

[King of Winters]

Ha! I've wonder this myself. Do they put them in a sack and haul them up the Wall and then drop them by tether down the other side? Or carry them piggyback all the way up and down? Either way it seems more trouble than it's worth if you have a screaming, struggling woman to deal with.

On the other hand if they look like what I have, in the last few years, been imaging Val to look like then it might be worth it. ;)

Is she thought to be Val or is it a random actress you picked?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah I quoted it up thread. here it is again:

Aye, she said, but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Baels head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.

The thing is, Ygritte says that all the maids love Bael in his songs.

[Yield.]

Is she thought to be Val or is it a random actress you picked?

Just my pick. She was in Get him to the Greek and this year on Endeavour as a beauty queen.

[JNR]

Ha! I've wonder this myself. Do they put them in a sack and haul them up the Wall and then drop them by tether down the other side? Or carry them piggyback all the way up and down?

Not piggyback... unless we were lied to, when told even Hodor couldn't climb the Wall, even with only Bran to carry.

But I think for a Val type such as you describe, or this one, I could be persuaded to create a clever, portable system of ropes and counterweights.

Or maybe a trebuchet, to hurl her over the Wall, and a giant cushion for her to fall on north of it. (Best aim carefully; we don't want her to hit the Wall.)

[Melifeather]

Yeah I rewatched the episode last night and came to the same conclusion. He is chiding Tormund in a condescending manner. I mistook Styr's accent for an inflection so that's why I was confused.

And on the rewatch I realised something Styr says doesn't make sense. When he arrives Tormund notes that Styr arrived from the south of where they are located. Styr says yes we stopped of at a village, and goes on about how the meat tastes better. Then when the arm is put on the spit he asks Tormund if he wants to taste some Crow. Where and when would he have gotten a brother of the NW if he was in a village? He mentions something about Castle Black but he couldn't have been there without raising alarms could he?

OK, BiiiG Crackot....maybe the Thenns are connected somehow to the Whitewalkers and were eating an arm picked up from the Fist?

This may be the show's first introduction to lay the foundation for a reveal?

[Yield.]

I don't know about crackpot, because I think that this might be what's so special about the Starks and Winter - that they do have cold inside them and that's why Coldhands isn't a wight and perhaps why Jon may also become Coldhands. The only reservation I have on this is that the comment by GRRM about him being pursued through the forest mentioned him needing to find food

:facepalm: I just realised that Jon could become just like Adara. She has winter inside her and that allows her to touch the ice lizards and be buddies with the Ice Dragon. And it turns out it was a temporary situation because she had the ability to thaw out always inside her as well. If she can choose to be warm than it was by (unconscious) choice that she was cold. If you see what I mean.

The parallel is that Jon then can choose to let winter in.

ETA: And I also meant to say that Adara eats and is a normal girl for the most part which would tie in with Jon being hunted cause he is an unknown quantity and his need to still eat.

[Black Crow]

The thing is, Ygritte says that all the maids love Bael in his songs.

Certainly sounds like Rhaegar but there's a big difference between girls being infatuated with a pop star and love in the usual sense

[King of Winters]

Just my pick. She was in Get him to the Greek and this year on Endeavour as a beauty queen.

Wasn't there someone people said could be Val in this Season?

But I think for a Val type such as you describe, or this one, I could be persuaded to create a clever, portable system of ropes and counterweights.

:agree:

[Yield.]

OK, BiiiG Crackot....maybe the Thenns are connected somehow to the Whitewalkers and were eating an arm picked up from the Fist?

This may be the show's first introduction to lay the foundation for a reveal?

LOL the Unsullied would need Sparknotes to keep up with that! :)

[Frey family reunion]

The other thing to consider is perhaps the act of conception was consensual but carrying the baby through to birth was not.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Certainly sounds like Rhaegar but there's a big difference between girls being infatuated with a pop star and love in the usual sense

Too right.

Bael is the one that says all the maids love him. "But a bard's truth is different than yours and mine."

[Armstark]

It does, but throwing himself/herself off a tall building for grief is pretty much a staple of folklore whether it actually happened or not. Ashara Dayne being another example here.

I feel you are picking and choosing here a little bit to fit your narrative. The whole Bael the Bard story is folklore. To use that as an argument to dismiss one part of the story while taking the rest at face value is nothing but personal bias.

In this case there are a couple of problems with the flinging from the tower, first its an awful long time to pass between birth and apotheosis with no contact in between

So it can only make sense if she loved him with all her heart.

Jon doesn't know the story - keeping the bit about Bael quiet is one thing but a ?x great granny chucking herself off a tower is a different matter

Why is it harder to keep quiet about about the suicide than the fatherless heir? After all a woman is much less important than the Stark of Winterfell.

and the whole business of young Stark growing up to slay his father is a bit too ballad like

Isn't the whole story like a ballad? Plus this part was actually not a part of the ballad:

The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story

And the only thing about Bael the Bard that gets confirmed anywhere else than Ygritte's story is that he was in fact King-beyond-the-Wall and attacked the North. Obviously his attack failed and thus he must have been killed.

So this part of the story is actually the most believable.

[Black Crow]

Oh there's no doubt that Bael got himself killed, but notwithstanding Old Nan, Jon doesn;t know the story which is why what I'm actually suggesting is that they tell the story differently in Winterfell

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The thing is, Ygritte says that all the maids love Bael in his songs.

This is true... and sounds sort of like a disclaimer from Ygritte, as if she were saying: "Well, she might really have loved him and she might not... Bael wrote the song." Ordinarily, I think the wildling rule of thumb (also coming from Ygritte, I believe) is that it's the woman who gets to decide whether to carry a man's child. Similar to her statement that a man can own a woman or he can own a knife, but not both... legitimacy (of marriage or child) is implied by the woman's acceptance of another in her life. Or at least, by her decision not to kill her husband.

Still, it sounds like the mother's suicidal grief was driven at least as much by the curse on her kinslaying son as it was by the death of her one time lover Bael.