Are the Starks Out?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Not arguing that she can't make a contribution. You are most definitely right that there are two books left, and I'm sure many people's theories are going to make them look like fools, not of least mine :cool4: . But how do you think she will contribute? A theory would be more interesting to analyze then simply saying that it could.

Well for one we can look at her narrative and the "teachers" she had. Sansa's narrative has been mostly about politics, court intrigue and game of thrones and when she was in the red keep she had some teachers: Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Sandor, Dontos and right now in the Vale she has a more obvious teacher Littlefinger. Sansa is right now - like Arya and Bran - in a training montage which heavily indicates she will play a big part to the conclusion of the book series and contribute to the Stark legacy, because lets face it the Starks are not known for being politically savvy or subtly. So it is obvious that Sansa is being set up to be the player and politician of the Stark family. The days that the North stayed clear away from the South has to end if they wish to survive and rise once again. So yes Sansa will most likely contribute a lot to the family.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

I think anyone, who is still considering Sansa as a lost cause/lost her "Starkness"/won't care or help her reaming family; are flat out kidding themselves. Sooner, rather than later; she will be in position to start tearing down those who are enemies to her family.

I don't think like that in those terms. I would say that many people don't look at Sansa's past actions lightly. I believe there are consequences that will haunt her, whether she did those actions for justice or for selfish reasons. I've noticed that whether the characters in the novels are doing for good or evil (of course you could say its perspective), there are consequences for them.

[Lord Reaver]

You could call it a metaphor, as it is being seen by many to foreshadow what will happen to their respective owners. But it could also simply be a motif. Either way they do mean something. The wolves weren't simply put there for nothing, unless you think they are just cute little pets.

I am well aware of what a metaphor is and that many people try and read some sort of foreshadowing into the wolves. What I am saying is I am also aware that GRRM also knows this, and further, that I am aware that this is precisely the sort of thing he likes to play with.

The wolves were obviously put there in order for the Stark children to warg into (if they lived). Anything beyond that is pure speculation.

I'm sure you have read books in high school, like The Great Gatsby, The Catcher in the Rye. They all have small or common things that pertain to large concepts. The authors put them in for a reason. The ring in The Catcher in the Rye, for example was supposed to represent the circle of life. It comes back as motif in the carnival as the mary go around. The fading of the green light in the Great Gatsby is a motif representing his hope and his life. I'm insinuating that perhaps you haven't read and had to deal with those ideas in a while. Its kind of hard to ignore them.

Actually, I never attended your high school, though I have read those books. They were quite unimpressive, really.

The problem is, when you only learn some very basic "rules" on how literature should be and you only learn a few literary "tricks", people tend to see these everywhere. It's a standard human mistake, we see patterns where there are none, because our brains are "programmed" for pattern recognition.

In short, I've read and dealt with those ideas, among others, I merely do not agree that this is as clear a case of them as you seem to think.

ETA: Also, it seems to me you only addressed the metaphor of Lady having any sort of prediction value for Sansa. I fail to see how any of this relates to this supposed "Starkness"

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

Your view about the "tricks" is interesting. I wont argue your view over the significance of particulars then. I would simply say that theories based on them are valid (valid in the theoretical) and cannot simply be dismissed as "silly."

I'm actually impressed with people's view of Sansa. It might be my inability to really see her as important, however I do welcome people's theories about it. I wouldn't regard them as silly, as I'm sure there isn't even a true conclusion drawn out for her yet anyway. I would say I appreciate her more in the light that her beginning seemed flawed. Every time she reappears I am also drawn to her past by the scenarios she is in.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Your view about the "tricks" is interesting. I wont argue your view over the significance of particulars then. I would simply say that theories based on them are valid (valid in the theoretical) and cannot simply be dismissed as "silly."

I'm actually impressed with people's view of Sansa. It might be my inability to really see her as important, however I do welcome people's theories about it. I wouldn't regard them as silly, as I'm sure there isn't even a true conclusion drawn out for her yet anyway. I would say I appreciate her more in the light that her beginning seemed flawed. Every time she reappears I am also drawn to her past by the scenarios she is in.

I understand that you have this kind of view. Introduction of a character has a big impact on your view on that specific character. However you should also keep in mind that grrm has obviously set up a trend where he twist the opinions we have of the characters and completely turn them around. A perfect example are: Jaime, Theon and - yes - Sansa.

[Lord Reaver]

Your view about the "tricks" is interesting. I wont argue your view over the significance of particulars then. I would simply say that theories based on them are valid (valid in the theoretical) and cannot simply be dismissed as "silly."

The concept of "Starkness" (whatever this is, you still haven't defined it clearly) as some kind of inherent capacity carried by Stark blood is fairly silly, and quite clearly dispelled by examples in the books themselves (compare the brothers Brandon and Ned, for instance). Thus, any theory based on this is in turn equally silly.

[Grail King]

I think Sansa in the future will become another version of cercei ( without the incest)

No,I just got back from dropping my daughter at her college while there I notice this weeks TV guide and the article was on S4 of GOT from memory what the producer said of Arya and Sansa; both Stark girls saw many atrocities,Arya is going to a darker place as her kill list evolves, and Sansa the eldest daughter is learning politics and manipulation from a master in Little finger.

GRRM is not done with the Stark kids.

And Sansa is all Stark.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I don't understand why people say Sansa is no longer a Stark. She started off the series more interested in southron culture, but she's becoming more Northern as the books go on.

I mean, she spent half a chapter in ASOS describing how she was building Winterfell out of snow. She's just as connected to Winterfell as any of her siblings are.

Here are more lines that show this:

• "The hot water made her think of Winterfell, and she took strength from that" AGOT, Sansa IV
• "If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya." ASOS, Sansa II
• "I pray for Robb's victory and Joffrey's death . . . and for home. For Winterfell." ACOK, Sansa III
• "Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave." ASOS, Sansa III
• "That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. She had been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. Her father had been there, and her brothers, all of them warm and safe. If only dreaming could make it so . . .
  She threw back the coverlets. I must be brave. Her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other. If Lady was here, I would not be afraid." ASOS, Sansa IV
• "I must be brave, like Robb, she told herself, as she took her lord husband stiffly by the arm." ASOS, Sansa IV
• "She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell." ASOS, VII
• "Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me." ASOS, Sansa VII
• "I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him." ASOS, Sansa VII
• "She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell." ASOS, VII
• "I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell." AFFC, Sansa I

[The Kinkslayer]

I don't understand why people say Sansa is no longer a Stark...

Under the laws of Westeros she is a Lannister until Tyrion dies and she weds again or the high septon annuls her marriage.

[hhh]

Yeah, Sansa's identification with the North and Winterfell is implicit but it's definitely there. And all of the Stark kids are on such different paths their only common factor could be their attachment to each other and their family home.

Sansa also naturally internalises a lot of her negative feelings which makes it harder for me to feel empathy for her. But rereading some of her chapters have been eye-opening because she does experience pretty traumatic events. I think she'll use her etiquette and understanding of court politics to her advantage in the next few books. Not on a large scale but enough to politically empower herself.

[Mladen]

Under the laws of Westeros she is a Lannister until Tyrion dies and she weds again or the high septon annuls her marriage.

If we are playing that game, under the laws of Westeros, she is a Stark until her marriage becomes valid.

[bloodofwinterfell]

Under the laws of Westeros she is a Lannister until Tyrion dies and she weds again or the high septon annuls her marriage.

Plenty of characters are often referred by their maiden name - Cersei Lannister, Catelyn Tully, Lysa Tully, etc.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

I am very drawn to the idea that Sansa could be a "Cersei." I believe Cersei ended up the way largely because Robert didn't love her. I believe Sansa says something along the lines she will never marry for love.

As far as the Starkness is concerned, I would only add the potential view of the Northerners towards Sansa. Its hard for me to see her in the light that the Northerners would except her as the heir of Winterfell, largely because she has been a pawn for the Lannisters for so long. Whoever she ends up with will largely dictate her relationship with the Northerners.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I am very drawn to the idea that Sansa could be a "Cersei." I believe Cersei ended up the way largely because Robert didn't love her. I believe Sansa says something along the lines she will never marry for love.

Cersei killed Melara and tormented Tyrion since he was born. Robert's treatment did have a huge impact on her, but she wasn't exactly innocent before she married him.

I think there are definitely some comparisons to be made between Sansa and Cersei, but I don't mean Sansa is like Cersei or ever will be. I see her more as Cersei's foil as GRRM very plainly compares the two of them in ACOK:

"... Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

"Everyone wants to be loved."

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

and also:

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

They have complete opposite approaches to how they view the world. Sansa is definitely less naive and idealistic compared to how she was in the beginning of the series, but she's still nothing like Cersei. She has none of her cruelty or disregard for other human beings.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I am very drawn to the idea that Sansa could be a "Cersei." I believe Cersei ended up the way largely because Robert didn't love her. I believe Sansa says something along the lines she will never marry for love.

As far as the Starkness is concerned, I would only add the potential view of the Northerners towards Sansa. Its hard for me to see her in the light that the Northerners would except her as the heir of Winterfell, largely because she has been a pawn for the Lannisters for so long. Whoever she ends up with will largely dictate her relationship with the Northerners.

Except it is quite obvious that Sansa is being set up to be anti-cersei. They are each others polar opposites so much that even their protectors - Robert Strong and Sandor - are enemies.

[bloodofwinterfell]

Except it is quite obvious that Sansa is being set up to be anti-cersei. They are each others polar opposites so much that even their protectors - Robert Strong and Sandor - are enemies.

Wow, this is a great catch!

Even though I don't find it too likely, I would love for Sansa to be the younger and more beautiful queen because of how their relationship has been set up. It's more poetic than any other alternative.

[averde]

I don't think Sansa will die. I think it'll end up with Rickon as lord of Winterfell and Sansa as regent and a Lady Olenna type of person for the Starks.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Wow, this is a great catch!

Even though I don't find it too likely, I would love for Sansa to be the younger and more beautiful queen because of how their relationship has been set up. It's more poetic than any other alternative.

Somehow hope that the prophecy is only set up to Cersei be her own enemy and cast herself down, but if has to be someone then I do believe it is Sansa. A lot of people don't seem to realize how much character development Sansa got because of Cersei. Their dynamic is so abusive, interesting and their hatred for each other gives the prophecy so much more depth and has a poetic justice touch to it since Cersei is one of Sansa's main abusers. Sansa taking down Cersei would be satisfying. Plus Cersei also saw Sansa and Lady during her walk of shame. A possible foreshadowing? Most likely.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I am very drawn to the idea that Sansa could be a "Cersei." I believe Cersei ended up the way largely because Robert didn't love her. I believe Sansa says something along the lines she will never marry for love.

As far as the Starkness is concerned, I would only add the potential view of the Northerners towards Sansa. Its hard for me to see her in the light that the Northerners would except her as the heir of Winterfell, largely because she has been a pawn for the Lannisters for so long. Whoever she ends up with will largely dictate her relationship with the Northerners.

I think its been concisely explained how and why Sansa is not being set up to emulate Cersei, in fact just the opposite. And that Robert was only ever a factor in Cersei''s character ending up as it does. Not the cause.

But I'd like to address the second half of your post. What are you basing this potential view of the Northerners towards Sansa on? are there any quotes from actual Northerners dismissing Sansa as a Lannister? Is there any evidence that they would see her as a Lannister now? Or can we take Robb's words about the forced marriage to Tyrion as an indicator as to how the Northern Lords would view that marriage, and also look at how the hill tribes feel about the other forced Stark wedding they are determined to go rescue The Neds little girl from the Boltons. Don't you think they'd feel the same regarding Sansa, that if they had the opportunity to go snatch her back from the Lannisters they would have done so in a heartbeat.

Do you really think that having been a captive of the enemy for a long time means that her people would brush her off as irrelevant. She's not a northerner anymore not a Stark? why exactly because she was captive in the South, basically a POW, and forced into a Lannister marriage, I highly doubt anyone even in the South believes Sansa was in any way consenting in that marriage. Hell the more traditional Northerners might not even feel it was a valid marriage it took place in a Sept after all. Not to mention it was never consummated, a fact widely known at court and possibly leaked throughout the kingdom.

Lastly WHY on earth would whoever she ends up with, by which I assume you mean as a spouse, dictate how the Northerners view her? Does she cease to be Sansa Stark once she is wed, nope we see over and obver in book that women do not ever fully shed their birth house identity even when wed. Genna Lannister is actually married to a Frey, Cersei Lannister is wed to a Baratheon, Catelyn Tully, is a Stark by Marriage, Lysa Tully an Arryn, Barbrey Dustin has never ceased to be Barbrey Ryswell either she shows her arms as quartered with her birth house. As do many women in book. People don't just stop being who they are because they get wed. Elia of Dorne, Targaryan by marriage but every bit a Martell in the nations conciousness.

You can't argue that Sansa is or will be defined by her marriage to Tyrion. And who says she's ever going to end up with another husband either. she's made it pretty clear she is not interested in any more political marriages and I can see her refusing to ever wed again.

possibly doing things Mormont Style.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa, mentally, spiritually has become more of a Stark now then she ever was before. She was a naive, foolish girl who never appreciated her family and her true people (Northmen and Northwomen) until she experienced all that she has to this point. She is almost in tears when it snows in the Vale because of her heart is longing for Winterfell. She even misses Jon Snow, whom she seemed to have taken after her semi - bitch mother in disliking him. Sansa, will never return there I think. That must be her punishment. She will, however, be a harbinger of revenge to one degree or another. She will meet Arya again I believe, but not any of her brothers.