Will Arya wield Dark Sister?

[Pod The Rod]

I think Arya COULD be an effective battlefield fighter, certainly she could be an effective duelist one-on-one. She already has several of the prerequisites, she has plenty of grace, quickness, balance, and coordination. If she were to resume training, I see no reason why she can't be a quality fighter. There's still time, too, an average of six months to a year passes in a book, plenty of time for her to gain the skill to overpower your common grunt.

The stumbling block is of course, where will she get that training. Arya shows plenty of desire to learn, but she has not had any sort of continuous, organized training since Syrio. Since then, it's been sparring with trees and her own shadow, training in skills that can aid in fighting (balance, coordination) but aren't specifically related to swordplay, and maybe a few days with Sandor Clegane on the road. If Arya is going to gain the kind of skill necessary to wield Dark Sister, she'd need to devote herself to training constantly from the time she returned to Westeros, and the whole point of returning to Westeros is going to be that she's done training and is ready to play her part in the final act in ASOIAF.

So, IMO, Arya becoming a good fighter is like R+L=J&M. Plausible, but not probable.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I don't see it as a case of the FM are training her to be unlike herself. I think it's more the fandom having a view of her that I don't think aligns with the text. It's like the theory that she should leave the FM and later join Jon's KG. She never said she wanted to be a knight and she would make a poor bodyguard. She can be killed easily.

Even before she got to the FM she was never a hand to hand combat type of person. She mainly killed people by tricking them or using the element of surprise. She was no Aemon the Dragonknight type of fighter who did carry Dark Sister. Visenya fought in battle with Dark Sister. Arya is not suited for a battlefield unless it's a scenario where she's riding a dragon or something.

The problem is even if we say she will be a woman one day it won't be in the span of the next two books. There are bravos all over Braavos. If she was more interested in training to be a skilled swordswoman than a FM nothing prevented her from telling the KM that she wanted to leave and train with one of them. A few lessons with Syrio doesn't cut it. Yes, she's not as bad as your average untrained person but the warriors in Westeros trained for years. Asha and Brienne did. There's no reason why Arya should just be able to use Dark Sister no problem skipping steps. Jamie was good but he put in the years of training. Arya is spending her years training at something else. She does not have years in the next two books and she has not shown interest in continuing training in such a way. She seems to like how she is being trained now. I would say it suits her.

Anyways, as for the earlier comment I don't think there necessarily is a warrior woman tradition for the sword since we only know of Visenya having it. The others were Aemond, Aemon, and BR so mostly men.

I just see the possibility of Dark Sister as the chance for Arya to pick up where she left off with Syrio. She chose to train with him for a reason, she wanted that and Needle more than anything else in the world at that time. Her father okaying all of it was the first steps on her own path, where it would have lead is hard to say........I just don't think, regardless of FM training, that Arya wanting to wield a sword like Dark Sister is out of the realm of possibility.

[Mourneblade]

There was no cat warging before, surprise, there was, either. Not like anyone on Westeros has talked of dragons, anyway, even outside the context of warging. Whatever.

Nice more straw man, how does the saying go "if I only had a brain"

ARYa_Nym

I am sure a few extremist fans have suggested being in Jons KG, but I honestly have not seen it myself, so I am wondering where you got it that the "Fandom" wants Arya in Jon's KG?

I have seen people discuss her taking the Master of Whisperers role... but that is not the KG...

[Mithras]

I can't stand this "Arya is just a little girl" stuff anymore. I posted several calculations to make clear that she came to Braavos immediately before her 11th name day and stayed there for at least 2 years. She doubts herself wether Needle is still the appropriate weapon when contemplating to throw the blade into the canal. As Blind Beth, she observes her legs are growing longer every day. She's 13 now and seems to have no problem to transport Raff's corpse 5 levels down and to the next canal. Dark Sister is described as a slender blade, made for women. Arya should well be able to wield it. Jaime Lannister better sees to get Oathkeeper back before Arya learns that he pushed Bran out of the window (or that he was looking for her to cut her hand off at Castle Darry)!

How do you calculate Arya staying 2 years in Braavos?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

But she is on her own path, she chose to go to the temple, she chose to stay with the FM, they just offered her an opportunity that she took. If that is "imposed by happenstance" then anything in life is imposed by happenstance, including her future choices.

But gotcha, you're thinking of the sword as an useless status symbol and a way, no doubt, to fit Arya back into the warrior princess cliché. An Asha knock-off, with a special snowflake token. Why not, I guess, if she takes up some fencing for sport, later in life... but to me it seems to dilute what makes the character special, when you have to give them trinkets to enforce the notion, and it also seems totally out of character for Arya to now switch to Amazon mode, as much as it would be for Tyrion or Dany: their strength is not about stupid duelling. Add to that that Valyrian sword have so far shown that they were not more than tools, like Brienne shows, or Joffrey, or Lyn Corbray, and it loses a lot of the mystique.

This fascination with "special" swords is always a bit puzzling, I cheered when, back then Ice was reforged, Egen lost his duel because he got offered a new "special" sword, and Arya lost Needle, it seemed to mean that it really did, then, consider swords to be tools, like in reality, and focus on the real important part: the character wielding the tool of death, not the tool itself (considering with or without "special-ness" attached to a sword, people died the same at the end of it, anyway.)

The only Valyrian swords I could see Arya keep would be Oathkeeper and Widow's wail, not because they are Valyrian Steel, or deadly or anything, but because they are the remnants of Ned's sword: same reason as for Needle, and we should remember that while she has Needle at the moment, she does not use it.

More than that: Jaime shows that even having trained for years, had lessons with the best, and the theory down pat is not enough: he loses his sword hand, and now he sucks. It's only the usual Stark fanboyism that make people believe Arya can kick ass with one month of lessons in a discipline that's not even geared for the sword they want her to use... and the "she could be great when older" is barely relevant because it applies to every single character: Sansa could be a great swordfighter with a Valyrian Steel, if she decided to take up swordfighting too. (scratch that: it does not apply to Tyrion, and neither to Bran outside of warging scenario)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91257-skinchanging-a-dragon/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62774-can-wargs-enter-and-control-the-dragons/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79140-will-bran-warg-a-dragon/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99286-will-jon-snow-be-able-to-warg-into-a-dragon-because-of-his-targaryen-heritage/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99286-will-jon-snow-be-able-to-warg-into-a-dragon-because-of-his-targaryen-heritage/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76415-arya-and-warging-direwolf-cats-and-dragons-probably-crackpot/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78706-warging-into-a-dragon-highly-doubt-able/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73042-dragons-can-be-warged/

There was no cat warging before, surprise, there was, either. Not like anyone on Westeros has talked of dragons, anyway, even outside the context of warging. Whatever.

Arya spends most of time before and in Braavos thinking about how she has a whole in her heart and that she has no place else to go. Everytime the Kindly Man made her an offer of a different life, it was more so the idea of her being off alone again that stopped her, the idea of her having no place to go. It's hard to say that it, the FM, is a definate 100% choice.

It's best not to tell people what they are thinking, chances are you could be off the mark. I'm not thinking of special snowflakes and status symbols. I'm WONDERING if Arya herself, should her path diverge from the FM, would actually be interested in having a sword like Dark Sister. The story of Needle itself, the training with Needle, the lessons with Syrio, were the first chance at Arya looking for her own place in the world. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Dark Sister could be part of her returning to that path she started off on with Needle and Syrio. We have no idea where that would have lead and what Arya's exact goals were to be, but I'm not so sure that wielding a sword in some form wasn't her true intentions anyway. Why else was she even training with Needle?

ETA: I'm not sure where the idea of having one of the Valyrian Swords = one must be a fighting warrior everyday of their life, either. Ned spent most of his life ruling Winterfell, not charging around the kingdoms looking to ICE anyone. Hell, I've noticed many aren't even certain what sword Ned used while at war, it seems many speculate that it wasn't Ice.

[ARYa_Nym]

I just see the possibility of Dark Sister as the chance for Arya to pick up where she left off with Syrio. She chose to train with him for a reason, she wanted that and Needle more than anything else in the world at that time. Her father okaying all of it was the first steps on her own path, where it would have lead is hard to say........I just don't think, regardless of FM training, that Arya wanting to wield a sword like Dark Sister is out of the realm of possibility.

She was getting water dancing training because Ned thought that she lacked the physical strength to be trained as a knight and she did genuinely want it. She would have been on track to use a bravo's blade.

A lot of her training with the FM coincides with Syrio's like where she was supposed to be completely aware of her surrounding and see what's really there. Ned thought her training was nonsensical because she was being trained to stand on one toe and was chasing cats. He offered to have her trained by a knight but she refused. He thought she wasn't getting real sword training.

ARYa_Nym

I am sure a few extremist fans have suggested being in Jons KG, but I honestly have not seen it myself, so I am wondering where you got it that the "Fandom" wants Arya in Jon's KG?

I have seen people discuss her taking the Master of Whisperers role... but that is not the KG...

I've seen this more so for Sansa's queensguard on tumblr like graphics and things but off the top of my head Arya was mentioned in the who would be in Jon's KG thread just as an example. She also comes up in the pick your own KG threads.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

She was getting water dancing training because Ned thought that she lacked the physical strength to be trained as a knight and she did genuinely want it. She would have been on track to use a bravo's blade.

A lot of her training with the FM coincides with Syrio's like where she was supposed to be completely aware of her surrounding and see what's really there. Ned thought her training was nonsensical because she was being trained to stand on one toe and was chasing cats. He offered to have her trained by a knight but she refused. He thought she wasn't getting real sword training.

Considering that Dark Sister was introduced to us as Visenya's sword, I see it as the possiblity of a sword that Arya could handle, IMO, anyway.

I'm just trying to catch up on few threads for the time being, so I can't really get into all the details of ideas that I am JUST WONDERING ABOUT anyway. (the emphasis is for everyone, not just you, LOL, sorry, hope that didn't give offense.) Real life duties are calling for the next few hours, but I hope to return to the subject matter later in the day.

~runs off to look at a few other boards and threads here, there, and everywhere~

I hate when I don't have time for concise answers, just tried to give a bit of a response for now. :D

[ARYa_Nym]

Considering that Dark Sister was introduced to us as Visenya's sword, I see it as the possiblity of a sword that Arya could handle, IMO, anyway.

Visenya was a warrior woman who fought with Dark Sister in battle though. We've seen Arya in battle. She had to rely on the Hound and was very out of her element. He had to knock her out so she wouldn't get killed. She's better in situations like the guard where she tricks him and then kills him.

[Mithras]

Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.” At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms.

Larys Strong (The Clubfoot) rarely spoke, preferring to listen. When he did speak it was either to be glib or share words of great importance. As most masters of wisperers, he was enigmatic and cunning.

I think Arya will be the Master of Whisperers of Jon.

[Mourneblade]

She was getting water dancing training because Ned thought that she lacked the physical strength to be trained as a knight and she did genuinely want it. She would have been on track to use a bravo's blade.

A lot of her training with the FM coincides with Syrio's like where she was supposed to be completely aware of her surrounding and see what's really there. Ned thought her training was nonsensical because she was being trained to stand on one toe and was chasing cats. He offered to have her trained by a knight but she refused. He thought she wasn't getting real sword training.

I've seen this more so for Sansa's queensguard on tumblr like graphics and things but off the top of my head Arya was mentioned in the who would be in Jon's KG thread just as an example. She also comes up in the pick your own KG threads.

I see. That seems a bit silly, I am sure you agree lol. Makes no sense to me that Arya, if she were to survive, it would be totally out of character for her.

[Mourneblade]

Visenya was a warrior woman who fought with Dark Sister in battle though. We've seen Arya in battle. She had to rely on the Hound and was very out of her element. He had to knock her out so she wouldn't get killed. She's better in situations like the guard where she tricks him and then kills him.

Uhm no.... she was in battle with Yoren. She was in Battle with the hound at the Crossroads...

The only time the Hound knocked her out was at the Twins... but Arya was not in battle there.

[Fat Trell]

Uhm no.... she was in battle with Yoren. She was in Battle with the hound at the Crossroads...

The only time the Hound knocked her out was at the Twins... but Arya was not in battle there.

She stabbed at Lorch's men as they climbed the keep's ramparts. Once they got over, she bailed. This is the closest she gets to battle,

She hung in the back and threw things. She unsheathed a drunk squire's knife and stabbed him. She stabbed the Tickler in the back.

She has never participated in actual combat.

[Mourneblade]

She stabbed at Lorch's men as they climbed the keep's ramparts. Once they got over, she bailed. This is the closest she gets to battle,

She hung in the back and threw things. She unsheathed a drunk squire's knife and stabbed him. She stabbed the Tickler in the back.

She has never participated in actual combat.

Just stop, everything you quoted is "actual combat".

Does she line up and participate in a "Great Battle"? no of course not, but you cannot change facts or definition of combat to fit your opinion, so find something else.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think the Tickler fight shows what has been said. She was terrified and really needed the Hound there. The Hound distracting the Tickler let her come up behind him and kill him. It would have gone down differently if it had just been her and the Tickler.

The tactics she used to kill him was the element of surprise not excellent swordsmanship. There's nothing wrong with that of course. It's just this is where her skillset is.

[Errant Bard]

Nice more straw man, how does the saying go "if I only had a brain"

Right, illustrating and reformulating something I have been saying for three posts (it's not because it's not been done or not been shown that it cannot be done), and saying something that is directly relevant to what you just posted ("a complete lack of anyone even suggesting it in all the warg talks suggest that it is more unlikely than likely"--> nobody speaks of dragons in westeros, so of course a very very minor and more isolated subgroup will not do it more), is a strawman, of course, of course. Look up what strawman means, and, regarding the last part, also spend some time on Ad Hominem and ban (yes, of course you were only referencing the wizard of Oz).

Arya spends most of time before and in Braavos thinking about how she has a whole in her heart and that she has no place else to go. Everytime the Kindly Man made her an offer of a different life, it was more so the idea of her being off alone again that stopped her, the idea of her having no place to go. It's hard to say that it, the FM, is a definate 100% choice.

I am sorry, how does losing your family or feeling empty make choices you do any less choices?

You only do anything when you are in top mental form, with all your family alive around you, you are in a good mood, in a good environment, only selfless, altruistic persons surround you, and you've got the Akashic records wired to your brain? I just don't understand the concept, here, I can't manage to envision a setting that would be objectively good enough for you to consider any choice a "100% choice", or, actually, a character who ever made a "100% choice" choice.

I'm WONDERING if Arya herself, should her path diverge from the FM, would actually be interested in having a sword like Dark Sister.

It's a very very specific thought experiment and scenario, though. Loaded, one might even say. You did not wonder in what Arya would be interested in, like, I don't know, going to the Citadel, having kids, sailing the Cinnamon Wind, learning magic, becoming a famous actress, exploring Valyria, owning a horse, a castle, a bakery, an orphanage, a bow, whatever... and you did not wonder about Sansa, Myrcella, Tommen or anyone else than Arya. No, you like the scenario and defend its validity and attractiveness, that's more than mere "wondering", and the reason for it, well, I think that the "special snowflake token" reason works well enough.

The story of Needle itself, the training with Needle, the lessons with Syrio, were the first chance at Arya looking for her own place in the world.

No, that was just Arya, knowing her place in the world, doing stuff she wanted to do. Can you detail what struck you as her "finding her place", in the King's Landing chapters, and what that "place" is exactly?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Dark Sister could be part of her returning to that path she started off on with Needle and Syrio.

Nothing is out of the realm of possibilities, it's fiction, but the Needle/Dark Sister comparison does not work for me because I see Needle's value in the memories attached to it, and because I see no "path" started with Syrio but a minor step in her assertive personality, which already manifests in her becoming a goddam assassin. Reducing her to the role ("place"?) of destined swordswoman at this point feels wrong.

We have no idea where that would have lead and what Arya's exact goals were to be, but I'm not so sure that wielding a sword in some form wasn't her true intentions anyway. Why else was she even training with Needle?

She felt inferior to Sansa in everything they were taught, she is extremely contrary, she was forbidden to play with the boys, Ned indulged her tomboyness, then Jon offered her the blade and she wanted to use it. Yes, she wanted to wield that sword, she did, however there is a difference between learning something and making it your life purpose... Lyanna did more than Arya with swords, yet she did not become a swordsman. I see Arya as having more ambition than being a fighter: maybe that can be part of it, but it's more like Asha: only a part of it, not the ultimate life goal. She is no Brandon.

ETA: Also, you seem to imply that you think wanting to use Needle was a "100% choice" choice, can you explain why you ignore the obvious influences of her environment there?

ETA: I'm not sure where the idea of having one of the Valyrian Swords = one must be a fighting warrior everyday of their life, either. Ned spent most of his life ruling Winterfell, not charging around the kingdoms looking to ICE anyone. Hell, I've noticed many aren't even certain what sword Ned used while at war, it seems many speculate that it wasn't Ice.

Well, if you don't use it, then it's more of a prestige token then. Why exactly would the scenario of Arya getting it be discussed, then? Wasn't it said before that it would be cool because it would help her slit throat better and whatever? There is a reason for Needle to be hidden and not thrown in the canal, no such reasons extend to a Valyrian Sword except potentially the remnants of Ice: Arya would have thrown Dark Sister in the canal if she had it then.

Having the sword means having an official persona owning the sword, too, so it means no more FM-ing, potentially being the target of FM retribution (for betrayal), and all in all squarely being locked into a small, feudal noble position without the freedom of anonymity. It also means spending a lot of time to train instead of going to discover three new things about the world each day. Being a fighting warrior with it makes the most out of having the thing, anyway.

[Mourneblade]

Right, illustrating and reformulating something I have been saying for three posts (it's not because it's not been done or not been shown that it cannot be done), and saying something that is directly relevant to what you just posted ("a complete lack of anyone even suggesting it in all the warg talks suggest that it is more unlikely than likely"--> nobody speaks of dragons in westeros, so of course a very very minor and more isolated subgroup will not do it more), is a strawman, of course, of course. Look up what strawman means, and, regarding the last part, also spend some time on Ad Hominem and ban (yes, of course you were only referencing the wizard of Oz).

I had made no Ad Hominem remarks towards you, however your comments have been sarcastic and strawman in nature. All animals can be Warged into, it is implied, even humans, and possibly even dead humans (Cold Hands), but Dragons and The Others are something Entirely different. They are Magical, and an element made flesh, something totally alien, physiologically speaking, when compared to mammals, You seem to have overlooked that actual point when making your remarks though.

Just because you do not agree with an opinion does not mean you have to respond sarcastically, but when someone, calls you on it, and responds in kind, you suggest bans.... look up hypocrisy.

[Fat Trell]

Just stop, everything you quoted is "actual combat".

Does she line up and participate in a "Great Battle"? no of course not, but you cannot change facts or definition of combat to fit your opinion, so find something else.

No, its not. Not in the fashion you want it to be. Go reread the chapters.

Arya stands on the top of the keep's walls and chops off fingers and stabs at men as they climb over. One man gets over and she, Gendry, and Hot Pie attack him all at once. Gendry knocks off his helm and Hot Pie and Arya kill him. Immediately after this, Yoren tells them to leave.

Arya throws the cups she and Sandor were using once the fight breaks out at the inn. She hits the drunk squire in the face and misses the Tickler. She starts to throw a flagon and the squire grabs her arm. She unsheathes his dagger and stabs him(no armor) in the belly. Then after Sandor killed Polliver, she sneaks up on the Tickler(who is preoccupied with escaping/Sandor) and stabs him in the back.

If you want to say this is evidence of Arya being a warrior, you are incorrect. In fact, both these incidents demonstrate that she isn't. She lacks both the strength and he skill to effectively engage in real, out in the open combat.

Arya is not a soldier by any stretch, she is a killer. There is a difference.

[Mourneblade]

No, its not. Not in the fashion you want it to be. Go reread the chapters.

Arya stands on the top of the keep's walls and chops off fingers and stabs at men as they climb over. One man gets over and she, Gendry, and Hot Pie attack him all at once. Gendry knocks off his helm and Hot Pie and Arya kill him. Immediately after this, Yoren tells them to leave.

Arya throws the cups she and Sandor were using once the fight breaks out at the inn. She hits the drunk squire in the face and misses the Tickler. She starts to throw a flagon and the squire grabs her arm. She unsheathes his dagger and stabs him(no armor) in the belly. Then after Sandor killed Polliver, she sneaks up on the Tickler(who is preoccupied with escaping/Sandor) and stabs him in the back.

If you want to say this is evidence of Arya being a warrior, you are incorrect. In fact, both these incidents demonstrate that she isn't. She lacks both the strength and he skill to effectively engage in real, out in the open combat.

Arya is not a soldier by any stretch, she is a killer. There is a difference.

com·bat [v. kuhm-bat, kom-bat, kuhm-; n. kom-bat, kuhm-] Show IPA

verb (used with object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.

1.

to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.

verb (used without object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.

2.

to battle; contend: to combat with disease.

noun

3.

Military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.

4.

a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.

You are talking semantics, she battles better than most pre teen girls, and many grown men, and she will get older.

It is you who chooses to blur the definition of combat to suit your point in a way to diminish what she has done, which is not factual for one, but also is unfair to the character.

I have never said she is a soldier, and I totally agree with you that she is a killer. As she gets older, however, who knows, GRRM seems to be setting her up with a fighting and killing skill set.

[stu1987]

I can certainly see the appeal of Arya weilding Dark Sister, but doesn't Jon say something about Needle being similar to the blades used by Bravos. Arya hasn't really been trained with a traditional Westerosi blade; she is training to be an assassin and Needle is easily concealed; and she seems to have a deep attachment to Needle. For these reasons I don't think she'll ever take over Dark Sister.

[Fat Trell]

com·bat [v. kuhm-bat, kom-bat, kuhm-; n. kom-bat, kuhm-] Show IPA

verb (used with object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.

1.

to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.

verb (used without object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.

2.

to battle; contend: to combat with disease.

noun

3.

Military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.

4.

a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.

You are talking semantics, she battles better than most pre teen girls, and many grown men, and she will get older.

It is you who chooses to blur the definition of combat to suit your point in a way to diminish what she has done, which is not factual for one, but also is unfair to the character.

I have never said she is a soldier, and I totally agree with you that she is a killer. As she gets older, however, who knows, GRRM seems to be setting her up with a fighting and killing skill set.

I am not discussing the definition of combat, I'm discussing whether Arya has any experience actually fighting against people in real, pitched combat. She does, if you consider stabbing men climbing over a wall real, pitched combat.

Arya does not have a fighting skillset. She can't get much older because the books are ending soon.

She is not a warrior. She doesn't have the size or skill. Nor does she have the time to gain those skills before the end of the books.

GRRM has set her up as an assassin. That's why she's in an assassin's guild.