[Book Spoilers] Daenerys evil moment rushed. Runners look uncomfortable with it.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I wouldn't characterize Dany having 163 slave masters crucified as retribution for the 163 crucified slaves as evil. Did the slave masters hand pick the 163 slave children? Did they look for the evil slave kids who didn't obey commands well? Did they choose the slaves to crucify based on their actions or crimes? Or did they just rustle up a bunch of slaves to crucify as awarning to Dany? Dany is attempting to abolish slavery. This is a revolution... a war. The slaves revolted, won, and punishment was doled out to the slave masters in the same fashion their warning message to Dany was executed. It also sends the message that a slave's life is just as important as a slavers - 163 slaves = 163 slave masters.

And the pages of history are littered with the bones of leaders who took such half-measures as this. They may be cowed for a time, but all it does is create resentment and resolve, especially if it was only a handful or even one person who was responsible for the original 163.

[Metopheles]

Do you think Barristan is worse than Aerys then?

Well, actually, yes. But we don't know with how much love he heeded his commands.

I say a better example, as we just know more about the time, is Meryn Trant. He loves to follow Joffrey's madness and commands that go against the law.

I couldn't say Ilyn was bad when executing Ned, cause in his view and to his knowledge Ned was a traitor and therefore it is only right to behead him. And it is Ilyns job to do it.

But a people cheering and applauding a ruler for cruelty and giving him the crown, that is just madness. These are free people, not bound to any loyalty towards the king. They do not have a rule that they have to follow their leader. They are the masses, they could object. Single persons like Barristan, not really.

[sj4iy]

First post.

Anyway, I don't see how this was whitewashing at all. In fact, my husband and I (both who have read the books) found the scene very disturbing and it couldn't move past it fast enough. She is confusing 'justice' with 'vengeance' here. 'Justice' is when people are punished for their own crimes, not the crimes of others. There are always good people and bad people...even slave owners can be good people and not treat their slaves badly. Would those people deserve to be crucified simply for having owned slaves, regardless of their treatment of those slaves? It is very reminiscent of the Reign of Terror, where French aristocrats were beheaded simply because they were aristocrats. That wasn't justice, either.

[Sun]

What's the reason?

Doesn't Dany's flag remind you of anything? Again, look at that last shot of Dany's. It's a very ominous flag with a colouring and design that's sort of movie short hand for dictators/tyrants. They didn't want Dany being anything but a hero to the audience until this season. The flag is the beginning of the image change.

[Metopheles]

Doesn't Dany's flag remind you of anything? Again, look at that last shot of Dany's. It's a very ominous flag with a colouring and design that's sort of movie short hand for dictators. They didn't want Dany being anything but a hero to the audience until this season. The flag is the beginning of the image change.

yeah, it reminds me of a Jolly Roger. Look out! The pirates are coming!!

[Sun]

yeah, it reminds me of a Jolly Roger. Look out! The pirates are coming!!

It does? Well, it shouldn't. Most pirate flags are white on black.

[Metopheles]

It does? Well, it shouldn't. Most pirate flags are white on black.

not really. Jolly Roger itself derives from jolie rouge, beautiful red.

Roberts had red in some of his flags.

But the overall black design, hung over something that they took over, like pirates that stole a ship..

tell me no what flag do you mean, that Daenerys uses and she resembles evil in this shot?

Or do you say it looks evil because it is black and red?

[Neilos]

I'm usually quite irritated by whitewashing, but I really don't think this was an example of it.

It was handled well. The image of Dany with the Targaryen banner draped over the Harpy statue behind her even added some continuation-of-her-mad-dynasty symbolism. I'm happy with it.

[Sun]

not really. Jolly Roger itself derives from jolie rouge, beautiful red.

Roberts had red in some of his flags.

But the overall black design, hung over something that they took over, like pirates that stole a ship..

tell me no what flag do you mean, that Daenerys uses and she resembles evil in this shot?

Or do you say it looks evil because it is black and red?

I already said in my earlier post. Also, if that image in that screencap doesn't remind you of anything but pirates, I can't help you.

[FNF]

Mandela praised himself with non violence, yet his movements were pretty violent. Even if you can't say that now, can you..?

And tell me again what fire and blood has to do with this or Hitler?

Mandela was fighting against a regime oppressing his people yet stated there would be no reprisals against those who oppressed blacks post-apartheid. Remind me what Dany does please?

Do I need to explain the relevance of 'fire and blood' (Dany's mantra) to this? It's pretty much the opposite attitude figures like MLK and Mandela had.

[FNF]

And the pages of history are littered with the bones of leaders who took such half-measures as this. They may be cowed for a time, but all it does is create resentment and resolve, especially if it was only a handful or even one person who was responsible for the original 163.

Exactly. If you want to rule successfully who either completely destroy all powerful opponents, or you completely pardon powerful opponents.

[Metopheles]

Mandela was fighting against a regime oppressing his people yet stated there would be no reprisals against those who oppressed blacks post-apartheid. Remind me what Dany does please?

Do I need to explain the relevance of 'fire and blood' (Dany's mantra) to this? It's pretty much the opposite attitude figures like MLK and Mandela had.

I will not be lectured by trolls.

[Michael Herman]

Maybe in the extended DVD edition they'll have the whole two days it takes them to die on film. I mean seriously we saw the nails getting hammered in, then we saw 30 seconds of screaming, it's sunk in, thats more than enough gore for one scene. While making characters (Dany, Stannis, Tyrion) more morally 2D is a concern, I really don't think it's as bad as many think.

Also I didn't realise that the "eye for an eye" morality was still so prevalent in our society, I mean really? It is understandable that she would sentence those responsible to death, that is just the world she lives in, but crucifixion/flaying/burning alive/any kind of torturous execution= bad and this isn't just modern morality, many within westeros have expressed extreme distaste with cruel methods of execution.

[GallopingGhost]

And the pages of history are littered with the bones of leaders who took such half-measures as this. They may be cowed for a time, but all it does is create resentment and resolve, especially if it was only a handful or even one person who was responsible for the original 163.

Exactly. If you want to rule successfully who either completely destroy all powerful opponents, or you completely pardon powerful opponents.

So she should have killed all the slave masters and not just 163. Maybe she should have...it probably would have worked out better for her to completely wipe out the entire former ruling class.

[FNF]

I will not be lectured by trolls.

Not sure if trolling or serious?

[FNF]

So she should have killed all the slave masters and not just 163. Maybe she should have...it probably would have worked out better for her to completely wipe out the entire former ruling class.

Just Machiavellian things...

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

So she should have killed all the slave masters and not just 163. Maybe she should have...it probably would have worked out better for her to completely wipe out the entire former ruling class.

Either the whole class, the specific individuals responsible for the 163, or none at all. In the 'none' case, clearly set out the rules going forward then come down on them like a ton of bricks for any individual breaches from then on. "You have had your one chance, now here is how it is going to be..."

[Bilbo Baggins]

Absolutely. I hate Gregor Clegane, but I don't make threads about him, or spend time talking about him. It just seems a little odd some of Dany's biggest detractors spend so much time in threads about her.

Because I don't hate Dany, not truly. I can't speak for everyone but I think I lot of us are the same, Dany was supposed to be the good option, we were supposed to look forward to her coming over to Westeros on her dragons and kicking ass. But we were putting to much expectation and weight on to the shoulders of a 13 year old girl, and she buckled. In the position she's in one slip causes a mudslide and everything started going wrong. What is she fighting for? Her ideals? Or Westeros?

She's built up to be there hero, but Meereen is where she falls from that seat. I think most of the rabid discussion about Dany is not solely because people dislike her. It's because we were built up to love her but she fucked it all up. As for the Mountain, nobody likes him but he doesn't show himself enough to warrant much discussion beyond Robert Strong theories.

[Belisarius09]

I think show watchers are finally starting to perceive Dany as less than perfect.

But I don’t think the show buys Dany’s myth – not completely, at least. The episode opens with Missandei teaching Grey Worm the Common Tongue, and him asking her when they took her and if she remembers her home. Missandei may have the kind of accent that signals to us, in the real world, that she’s posh, but this scene reminds us – as Varys does, constantly – that there’s a sharp difference between the high-born and the low. I don’t think it was coincidental that Daenerys walked into the room just as Grey Worm was muttering, “Kill the masters.” She’s a master, too, despite her mama bear swagger and her rhetoric to the contrary.

And she’s a cruel one. When Ser Barristan urges her to answer the masters’ injustice with mercy, she snaps that she will meet injustice with justice, but the screams that echo through the closing shot and the music, with those gloomy minor notes creeping under its martial progression, don’t help her case. Exactly one season ago, we saw Daenerys sack Astapor in a similarly sweeping, bombastic fashion, and we cheered. But this time, the bombast has grown brutal, and the triumphalist staging feels ruthless and cold. In the final shot, the camera switches its of point of view and shows Dany on the ramparts, dwarfed by the giant building. The huge red-and-black Targaryen flag draped over the harpy statue makes it look as if she’s presiding over some sort of fascist rally, and the dark clouds, which contrast with the pointed sunniness of the previous scene, seem to foretell dire things ahead.

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-recap-season-4-oathkeeper-joffrey-killer-revealed-ser-pounce.html

[The Human Abstract]

Dany's not perfect, but neither is she "insane".

The crucifiction of the slavers resonates because it is straight out of the sort of things real conquerors did in history. And very few are successful without getting their hands dirty (I would say none are). I liked it. It smacks of truth and moves the story out of the realm of simplicity where a conqueror can move from one city to the next simply freeing the slaves without tackling the real socio-economic repurcussions and moral ambiguity. This is the beginning of her story arc growing up.