[Book Spoilers] Daenerys evil moment rushed. Runners look uncomfortable with it.

[gash]

Astapor, Yunkai, and Mereen makes three sacked cities that have gone just a bit too smoothly for me to buy into. And I don't remember saying I expect them to go back and refilm any battles to suit my taste? (Not that I'd mind) But yeah, one of the functions of this forum is for snobby book readers like me to complain when we get disappointed with the adapation. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I think my criticisms of the show's handling of Dany are perfectly legitimate. All I'm really asking for here is more nuance. The scene with Barristan was good. I hope they continue to flesh her out as more than just a white messiah figure in the future.

but when you single out a battle scene with dany that in your mind "white washes" her (it doesn't) and have no problem with any other battle scenes it clearly shows you are one of these bizarre militant dany hater types and so your criticisms are not really valid at all frankly.

[~DarkHorse~]

I think they are portraying Dany's dark side-

• Burning the Witch (season 1)
  
• locking Dorhea and Xaro Xhoan Daxos in the volt (season 2)
  
• Her 'fuck yeah, relish in this slaughter' posture and expression when taking the Unsullied (Season 3)
  

However, people interpret these as badass...not the writing...the audience.

If you want a real dent in her popularity then add the 'Usurpers dog...traitors death' comment about Ned. That will do the trick! There is nothing badass what so ever about dissing innocent Ned.

[Indigocell]

I feel like you guys keep setting up strawmen instead of actually addressing Thelastactoinhero's points. He's not saying that every minute of battle should be shown, but if you recall they did at least show the aftermath and the consequences of it all. He wasn't even criticizing her use of justice or methods either.

Dany has simply not had to deal with the consequences of her actions in war yet. It seems odd to me given that nearly every other character has suffered in some way. Maybe we'll only get to see the consequences when she actually tries to rule. There's not a whole lot more for her to do from this point on anyway.

[gash]

I feel like you guys keep setting up strawmen instead of actually addressing Thelastactoinhero's points. He's not saying that every minute of battle should be shown, but if you recall they did at least show the aftermath and the consequences of it all. He wasn't even criticizing her use of justice or methods either.

Dany has simply not had to deal with the consequences of her actions in war yet. It seems odd to me given that nearly every other character has suffered in some way. Maybe we'll only get to see the consequences when she actually tries to rule. There's not a whole lot more for her to do from this point on anyway.

at this point in the books she hadn't either. all that happens in a feast for crows, when she tries to rule mereen and it all goes to shit.

[Thelastactionhero]

but when you single out a battle scene with dany that in your mind "white washes" her (it doesn't) and have no problem with any other battle scenes it clearly shows you are one of these bizarre militant dany hater types and so your criticisms are not really valid at all frankly.

Yep. Cause three seperate battles equals one in your mind, I guess. I've also stated that Dany is one of my favorite characters, if you'd actually bothered to read any of my posts. Seems like we're at an impasse though, and there's little reason to continue this dialogue.

[Petyr Patter]

At this point, the problem with how the show presents Danaerys's character is not white washing.

The problem is the show fails to present Danaerys as any sort of character.

I can say that Tyrion has been "white-washed" by the show removing some of his darker moments, such as Symon Silvertongue. However, there is no doubt that Tyrion is still a character. He has his doubts, his hopes, and his personality quirks.

Danaerys is like an adult in a Charlie Brown cartoon, making mwha, mwha, mwha noises. It doesn't really matter what she says, just that Barristan and Jorah are going to be like "Argh!" I can't think of the last time she's had a conversation. Instead, she has proclamations.

Or, ask these two questions. 1) When was the last time Danaerys had to make a hard choice? 2) When was the last time Danaerys suffered the consequences of a choice?

Everything since Astapor has been a victory lap for her and even Astapor she walks away with her army, having freed the slaves, punished the sinners, and still in possession of her dragons. In essence, she got everything at a cost of nothing. At Yunkai she robs the peace envoy, has an enemy lieutenant infiltrate her tent and survives because he wants to bang her. The same former enemy has some scheme where three guys fight 50 and then take the city without any other complications. She now has thousands of followers with no jobs and only the possessions they can carry on their back. We never hear of any difficulty in feeding them or what the longterm strategy is. They just leave and start worshiping her. Approaching Meereen the show does nothing to build suspense. The most danger Danaerys is in is from the champion's charge, and then only because she like an idiot takes a front row view for the fight instead of standing behind some Unsullied. Of course the guy goes down due to some unhonorable tactics by the sell sword.

Compare her campaign to either Robb or Tywin. Robb is forced to chose between justice (executing Karstark) or using him as a hostage to keep his men loyal. He choses justice and loses the men. Tywin doesn't care about justice, but none the less has to chose to ally himself with the Tyrells and bring them into the royal family, the same family that marched with Renly Baratheon to usurp his grandson.

The crucifixion scene was mostly well done. I would have preferred much stronger opposition argument than "mercy?" Compare her attitude regarding the slave masters to Robert Baratheons attitude regarding Targaryens, Danaerys included. It was Eddard Stark who called Robert out on his cowardice and injustice, going so far as to resign the most powerful appointed office in all of Westeros.

Danaerys right now is simply the weakest story arc. Maybe it improves.

[JDNight]

For a moment lets forget what she did to the slavers. That is an argument that can be debated.

Lets instead look at what she has done to the innocents. Sure, there is a bunch of slaves quote-unquote freed right now. They are 'free' to worship her apparently. However, what the tv show is not showing is the tens of thousands (if not more) of innocents that died horribly in her rebellions. Many were raped or maimed or worse. Every time she 'liberates' a place she leaves it in complete shambles. This is not being shown on tv. The collateral damage that she causes which far exceed the quote-unquote help she gives to people or even the justice that she dishes out.

In a very good light, she is an amateur who is blind to the realities of life. In a bad light, she is a murderous conqueror who uses smooth words and 'justice' to justify her actions. Either way, I don't like her. Her actions and results directly reflect her upbringing and her sudden serendipitous gain of power.

[TaenaOfMyr]

One of Dany's most violent acts in the series to this point and it is proclaimed "white washing". Unbelievable. Next episode could have Dany slit the throats of Jorah, Barristan, Missandei and Dario and bathe in their blood while Tyrion decapitates Tommen, boils Ser Pounce in a stew and pays sell swords to find Pod & Brienne on the road and kill them and certain people would still call it white washing.

[Bilbo Baggins]

You guys are over glorifying how this was handled in the books. Dany ordered the cruficition of 163 masters but she didn't nail them all up herself or anything. It was handled quite swiftly in the books, and the majority of content relating to it stems from discussion of what she did later. Which the show has yet to cover. Dany changes a lot in A Storm of Swords, but the crucifictions were merely a cause. The focus of the story in the books, and as it likely will be in the show, is in the effect. What happens as a result of her actions.

I think you guys are giving the books too much credit on this one, and the show not enough.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I feel like you guys keep setting up strawmen instead of actually addressing Thelastactoinhero's points. He's not saying that every minute of battle should be shown, but if you recall they did at least show the aftermath and the consequences of it all. He wasn't even criticizing her use of justice or methods either.

Dany has simply not had to deal with the consequences of her actions in war yet. It seems odd to me given that nearly every other character has suffered in some way. Maybe we'll only get to see the consequences when she actually tries to rule. There's not a whole lot more for her to do from this point on anyway.

For gods sake. This is a show that worships gore. Last week wilding attack to a village was shown more violent than a freaking slave revolt in a big city.

You dont need to film the damn battle with details. Take Tyron being nursed after the Red Fork, or Talissa working with wounded after an other battle...., well done scenes that show people die and suffer with the main characters actions.

If in a context of a blood thirsty show, Daenerys sack is shown as a Sunday walk, then its Bias. As simple as that. I do not like cheap violence, but thats what D&D enjoy delivering 24/7. when they dont they white wash.

[Seneti]

Personally, I think D&D are setting Dany up for a complete failure line. They may not have shown the unpleasant consequences of her conquest yet, but if we'll have the battle of Meereen at the end of season 5, then we now have one and a half seasons to go from "everything is going super well for Dany" to "Khaleesi done fucked it up". D&D seem to love that kind of steep decline. Let's take a look at what - canonically - happens after this point in the books:

- half the petitions she hears are people complaining about what they lost through the sack of Meereen

- the other half are trying to either turn her into a master herself or to get rid of her

- Quarth will come back to haunt her by blocking her trade routes and sieging Meereen

- Yunkai will come back to haunt her by hiring every sellsword they can find to take her out

- Astapor will come back to haunt her by sending the pale mare

- Meereen's masters will come back to haunt her through the Harpy and her murder and rape of her freed men and women

- Drogon will kill a child

- her dragons will be locked up, leaving her without her greatest weapon

- she will nearly be poisoned during her wedding celebrations!

- she ends up in the middle of the fucking mountains, with a man-eating dragon that only half listens to her and a Dothraki horde approaching

Seriously, I think we're gonna see lots of dark Dany the closer we get to the end of season 5.

Now, a few thinks about some of the posts:

Theres no "they". How can she know if some opposed, if some said no? Picking 163 random slavers is an unfair move.

Besides if you do the same, you became the same shit you fight against.

Agreed.

they made the "sack" of mareen seem like one guy died during it. where was all the rape, plunder and pillaging that dany ended up blanket pardoning? the white wash machine was in full affect today...

Maybe they didn't have the time and money to shoot it? Maybe they didn't want to spoil Dany's big moment and we'll get to hear about it all next week?

How do you know she's pardoned it? We haven't seen any of her scenes in the throne room yet, which is where we hear about all that.

Agreed. I expect some answers next week.

Lol on the complaint it was "rushed". They literally showed Great Masters being nailed to to crosses, what more do you want?

The show has now shown her burn a rape victim alive, lock one of her hand maidens in a vault to die, used trickery to get her army, and crucified people on screen. Can we stop with the "whitewashing" nonsense now?

This. So much.

The thing is, in the books the crucifixions are mentioned very briefly:

And that's all to it. One short paragraph total. If anything, the show's depiction of them is one, longer, and two, shows Dany in darker, less favorable light: in the books, she herself has second thoughts, in the show Barristan advised her on mercy and she rejected it. How on the Earth is that "whitewashing"?

Blanket pardoning? What are you talking about?
She was pleased. Meereen had been sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were, but Dany was determined that should end now that the city was hers. She had decreed that murderers were to be hanged, that looters were to lose a hand, and rapists their manhood. Eight killers swung from the walls, and the Unsullied had filled a bushel basket with bloody hands and soft red worms, but Meereen was calm again.

Seriously, what blanket pardoning?

Thanks for the book quotes :)

The OP is upset everyone doesn't automatically hate Dany because of this scene. If only it were longer and more brutal, people will realize how much Dany is a villain and will stop calling her "khaleesi" and her entire fanbase will jump to Stannis.

There are darker moments coming. We haven't seen Hazzea or anything after she captures Meereen. Can you people have some patience?

Agreed. This seems to be the most common reason for book fan outrage about the treatment of certain characters - they can't seem to handle the idea that there is still so much time to show all the great moments (as soon as they become relevant). For comparison, see Sansa becoming a player and Rhaegar being mentioned.

I think they are portraying Dany's dark side-

• Burning the Witch (season 1)
• locking Dorhea and Xaro Xhoan Daxos in the volt (season 2)
• Her 'fuck yeah, relish in this slaughter' posture and expression when taking the Unsullied (Season 3)

However, people interpret these as badass...not the writing...the audience.

If you want a real dent in her popularity then add the 'Usurpers dog...traitors death' comment about Ned. That will do the trick! There is nothing badass what so ever about dissing innocent Ned.

I agree. Sooner or later, we are going to have to get to a scene where Dany will have to discuss potential allies in Westeros and her "usurper's dogs" comments about the Starks are bound to really piss of show watchers.

[PhoenixFlame]

I think Dany's road to victory has been so smooth because she's about to hit a mine field. The dragon tea party was foreshadowing; she was smiling and petting a cuddly Drogon, the sweet queen with her feasting children, only for her efforts to "calm" them to be met with a velociraptor shriek to the face.

I'm not just spitballing. Outside Mereen, the camera focused repeatedly on Hizdahr at the walls. I think they're going to try to flesh him out and perhaps composite him with some of Xharo's role from ADWD, the one who calls her on how sing-song her queenship is going.

Plus, even if D&D have softened some of the characters at this point, they haven't shown any real desire to lessen their suffering. There's not many ways that can happen in regards to her story arc; she wants to raise her dragons and be a good queen. Her dragons are rebelling and her rule's about to fishtail.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I think Dany's road to victory has been so smooth because she's about to hit a mine field.

So much this, the people complaining are misremembering the books. The crucifixion of the 163 masters is nothing compared to the shit that's about to happen. You've all jumped the gun on this one, her descent hasn't happened yet.

[PhoenixFlame]

So much this, the people complaining are misremembering the books. The crucifixion of the 163 masters is nothing compared to the shit that's about to happen. You've all jumped the gun on this one, her descent hasn't happened yet.

Lol, her standing at the top of the pyramid reminded me of Evita. More specifically, "Don't Cry for Me Argentina," which isn't long before "Rainbow Tour," the part where Evita realizes something's wrong with her and the politicians start taking potshots as she dies from cancer.

[starkbucks]

I can't say for others, but personally, I will kill anyone practicing slavery and those who support slavery. Therefore to me Dany was justified in crucifying everyone when she conquered Meereen. She was in fact merciful enough to kill only 163 of them for the slave girls killed along the way.

At the point of the punishing the slavers, she was at war. It was her army versus the slavers. Once she became their queen her attitude towards the Sons of Harpy and her hostages changes.

[Nictarion]

I thought the scene with Barristan was about the consequences of her actions more than his disapproval of her actions. As he said at the beginning she had already won, there was no need to stomp on their faces (even if they deserved it).

This will later come into play with the insurgency of the Harpy and the lessons of ruling Dany will have in Meereen and he later capitulation and marriage to Hizface.

Exactly! I can't help but laugh at those who are reading that look as "oh boy her we go again" wrt Dany becoming like her father.

[PhoenixFlame]

Exactly! I can't help but laugh at those who are reading that look as "oh boy her we go again" wrt Dany becoming like her father.

I didn't read it like "oh no she be cray!" Rather, as Barry having a moment of dissonance. A combo of realizing how inexperienced she is (no foresight as to how this will influence her wealthiest subjects) and the shortsighted brutality of face-kicking her conquered people. Sure they're slavers, slavery's bad, but I start to have doubts in a leader when he or she makes choices from their personal morals more than objective reasoning. Either smash them so hard they can't threaten her again or be merciful. In-between passive-bloodthirsty acts earn no respect.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I didn't read it like "oh no she be cray!" Rather, as Barry having a moment of dissonance. A combo of realizing how inexperienced she is (no foresight as to how this will influence her wealthiest subjects) and the shortsighted brutality of face-kicking her conquered people. Sure they're slavers, slavery's bad, but I start to have doubts in a leader when he or she makes choices from their personal morals more than objective reasoning. Either smash them so hard they can't threaten her again or be merciful. In-between passive-bloodthirsty acts earn no respect.

Exactly - and it actually engenders rebellion.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I can't say for others, but personally, I will kill anyone practicing slavery and those who support slavery. Therefore to me Dany was justified in crucifying everyone when she conquered Meereen. She was in fact merciful enough to kill only 163 of them for the slave girls killed along the way.

Morbid.

[Petyr Patter]

I can't say for others, but personally, I will kill anyone practicing slavery and those who support slavery. Therefore to me Dany was justified in crucifying everyone when she conquered Meereen. She was in fact merciful enough to kill only 163 of them for the slave girls killed along the way.

At the point of the punishing the slavers, she was at war. It was her army versus the slavers. Once she became their queen her attitude towards the Sons of Harpy and her hostages changes.

Fun list of people who used slaves or sold slaves:

• Jorah Mormont.

Khal Drogo.

Danaerys.

The degree somebody should be held responsible for being born into a specific culture is limited. Had another emancipation crusader caught up with Drogo's Khalasar in A Game of Thrones, Danaerys would be nailed to a cross. Or gang raped per the Dothraki custom.

I suppose this is a rather glib response, but simply dismissing the slave masters as evil and their deaths as justified is far to simple an interpretation.