Warging and Wighting: two sides of the same coin?

[Ygrain]

Not sure if this has been ever discussed but it occurred to me that while warging is restricted to living creatures and "wighting" to corpses, the mechanics and result is actually very similar: someone else's mind and will taking control. I wonder if the two abilities may somehow be related. What comes to mind here is the story of the Night King's Other wife and if she wanted his seed for the same purpose as Melisandre from Stannis or Davos, when the identity of the "donor" was not much of an issue, or if him being a Stark mattered for the warging heritage.

[Ice Turtle]

Well I am not sure that they are the same, but I think that FM have some more answers. Some of the memories remain in the flash, and that is how Other controlling Othor knew that Mormont was a leader. On the other hand there seems to be some spirit which can leave body, it lives in warged animals for a time or goes into trees if you are a greenseer.

I think that Beric,UnCat and Coldhands are spirits returned to dead bodies.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting idea. Are you thinking along the line of the Others being able to warg the wights? In such a case, I wonder if they are capable of feeling pain like Varamyr Sixskins experienced when his eagle was aflame. Since the wights we've seen have been fought off with fire.

Also, that could also suggest that it's not the wights who remember something from when they were alive. It would mean that the Others warged into the dead men know who leads the NW, who are basically an army fighting against them (originally). And thus, the Others would know who to target.

I always found it strange anyway, to say that the dead NW men remembered, and thus attacked Mormont because he was LC. They liked Mormont, afaik, so why attack him due to their own memories? But if their minds are being controlled by the enemy, that could explain the behaviour.

That it might have been a Stark who was the Night's King, could indeed thus have to do with the warging ability. Perhaps that's something like the ability of Targaryens to dream prophetic dreams: not all of them have the ability, only some, randomly. Perhaps the wargung ability is passed on to Starks the same way. Ned never suggested that he had the ability, and nothing that we know about Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen and Rickard suggeststhat they could do it (though about them we only know little, so we can't really say anything about it).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

interesting idea.

[Ygrain]

Interesting idea. Are you thinking along the line of the Others being able to warg the wights? In such a case, I wonder if they are capable of feeling pain like Varamyr Sixskins experienced when his eagle was aflame. Since the wights we've seen have been fought off with fire.

Also, that could also suggest that it's not the wights who remember something from when they were alive. It would mean that the Others warged into the dead men know who leads the NW, who are basically an army fighting against them (originally). And thus, the Others would know who to target.

I always found it strange anyway, to say that the dead NW men remembered, and thus attacked Mormont because he was LC. They liked Mormont, afaik, so why attack him due to their own memories? But if their minds are being controlled by the enemy, that could explain the behaviour.

That it might have been a Stark who was the Night's King, could indeed thus have to do with the warging ability. Perhaps that's something like the ability of Targaryens to dream prophetic dreams: not all of them have the ability, only some, randomly. Perhaps the wargung ability is passed on to Starks the same way. Ned never suggested that he had the ability, and nothing that we know about Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen and Rickard suggeststhat they could do it (though about them we only know little, so we can't really say anything about it).

Yes, it seems very much like warging to me - as we see from Bran's warging experience, the body still has its senses, the animal mind is still there, but it is Bran who decides what the body will do (to a degree; due to his inexperience, we see the wolf taking over and Bran only sort of taking a ride but later on, when he wargs Hodor, he exercises a higher level of control). The link to the warging Other might offer interesting options then.

I think that the wights remembering might be a bit more complex. Othor knew not only the target but where to find him, and Thistle recognizes Varamyr. I like Ice Turtle's suggestion that whatever is possessing the corpses, it may access their memories like when Arya puts on the ugly girl's face. The question here is, what exactly are Beric, UnCat, Coldhands and possibly also Patchface? Are they who they were, or is someone taking a ride? And who and why insisted that Cat was to be resurrected? For what purpose?

There is nothing to suggest that Ned had any special ability but the mentions of Lyanna and Brandon being exceptional riders might actually be due to unaware and untrained warging.

[Mithras]

I don't think so. Wights are animated by necromancy. Skinchanging (under the code of Haggon) looks like a symbiotic form of life. It looks quite natural to me whereas dead men walking and killing is no way natural.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Interesting idea. Are you thinking along the line of the Others being able to warg the wights? In such a case, I wonder if they are capable of feeling pain like Varamyr Sixskins experienced when his eagle was aflame. Since the wights we've seen have been fought off with fire.

Also, that could also suggest that it's not the wights who remember something from when they were alive. It would mean that the Others warged into the dead men know who leads the NW, who are basically an army fighting against them (originally). And thus, the Others would know who to target.

I always found it strange anyway, to say that the dead NW men remembered, and thus attacked Mormont because he was LC. They liked Mormont, afaik, so why attack him due to their own memories? But if their minds are being controlled by the enemy, that could explain the behaviour.

That it might have been a Stark who was the Night's King, could indeed thus have to do with the warging ability. Perhaps that's something like the ability of Targaryens to dream prophetic dreams: not all of them have the ability, only some, randomly. Perhaps the wargung ability is passed on to Starks the same way. Ned never suggested that he had the ability, and nothing that we know about Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen and Rickard suggeststhat they could do it (though about them we only know little, so we can't really say anything about it).

I also hypothetically agree about warging and wighting being different sides of the same coin. Attack on Old Bear by Othor happened in King's Tower of Castle Black when they were south of

Wall in AGOT. Old Bear was killed by mutineers of NW at craster's keep when they were retreating to the wall after attack on Fist of First Men. Mutiny happened in ASOS. Both incidents are seperate and happened months apart.

[Ghost's Shadow]

It's actually quite scary ( :lol: ) that this generation of Starks are 100% wargs, because if it's so that every 1000 Old blood (?) births produces a skinchanger, and every 1000 of those you get a greenseer, the Starks shouldn't end up being 100%.

It's curious that when the kids are developing this skill both Benjen and Ned are removed from the scene so e.g. a Bran wouldn't see if they have a bit of the gift as well. Lyanna was half a horse, so her gift might have been stronger than the other guys'.

TV

With this new filler for Bran at Craster's keep, if Craster was indeed a Stark, would they allow Bran to notice the girls have a bit of the gift as well?

Probably not.

Jon noticed that Borroq was a skinchanger, but he didn't notice in Gilly, either.

[sj4iy]

interesting idea.

^This. I never thought about it that way before, but it would make sense.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't think so. Wights are animated by necromancy. Skinchanging (under the code of Haggon) looks like a symbiotic form of life. It looks quite natural to me whereas dead men walking and killing is no way natural.

Symbiotic ways of life have two organisms coexisting. Both can survive that way. But with warging, should the animal be feeding whilst being warged, the human warged inside him does not feed. So it's not the same as that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Attack on Old Bear by Othor happened in King's Tower of Castle Black when they were south of

Wall in AGOT. Old Bear was killed by mutineers of NW at craster's keep when they were retreating to the wall after attack on Fist of First Men. Mutiny happened in ASOS. Both incidents are seperate and happened months apart.

I'm not sure I'm getting the point you are trying to make?

[Mithras]

Symbiotic ways of life have two organisms coexisting. Both can survive that way. But with warging, should the animal be feeding whilst being warged, the human warged inside him does not feed. So it's not the same as that.

I didnot use symbiotic in biological terms. In an ethical bond like Haggon's, the man gives some part of his to the wolf and some part of the wolf is absorbed to the man. Both the man and the beast change as a result. This works both ways and it is like a marriage, it endures until death. It is about sharing and emotional bonding.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, it seems very much like warging to me - as we see from Bran's warging experience, the body still has its senses, the animal mind is still there, but it is Bran who decides what the body will do (to a degree; due to his inexperience, we see the wolf taking over and Bran only sort of taking a ride but later on, when he wargs Hodor, he exercises a higher level of control). The link to the warging Other might offer interesting options then.

Very interesting options indeed.

I think that the wights remembering might be a bit more complex. Othor knew not only the target but where to find him, and Thistle recognizes Varamyr. I like Ice Turtle's suggestion that whatever is possessing the corpses, it may access their memories like when Arya puts on the ugly girl's face. The question here is, what exactly are Beric, UnCat, Coldhands and possibly also Patchface? Are they who they were, or is someone taking a ride? And who and why insisted that Cat was to be resurrected? For what purpose?

So in that case, the Others warging the wights would be able to access the memory of the wights to carry out their plan? Creepy..

Beric might still be who he was, though he admit to being less himself after every death.

Catelyns memory seems to still be intact, but her personality seems to be gone completely.

Coldhands is more difficult. I'm still not really sure what to think about him..

If someone was taking a ride inside Beric or Catelyn, I don't think they would be staying in the Riverlands, nor sacrifice Beric for Catelyn, due to the state of Cats body. As Beric, a potential person warging him could do so much more than as Cat.

Coldhands might have originally been a man who died beyond the Wall and was warged by a greenseer (who then held the position that Bloodraven holds now), before a Other could get to him. That would explain his appearance, at least.

There is nothing to suggest that Ned had any special ability but the mentions of Lyanna and Brandon being exceptional riders might actually be due to unaware and untrained warging.

This about Lyanna and Brandon is an interesting observation. Perhaps they were wargs, but simply didn't know it.

[jblair]

I actually thought this concept was one of the themes of the Heresy threads, but maybe I'm wrong about it. I always assumed this was the case, at least. And to take it further, my personal thought is that the Others' blood link to the Starks does exist and that blood (or ice, lol) is the reason the Others can wight at all. Or perhaps it went the opposite direction - that all warging is the result of proto-Stark blood combining with Other "blood" in the distant past, and warging is the living version of wighting. Blood and heredity is everything in ASOIAF, but we just don't have enough pieces of the puzzle to flesh it out.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I'm not sure I'm getting the point you are trying to make?

I was replying to another poster who seemed to imply that both incidents were somehow linked.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was replying to another poster who seemed to imply that both incidents were somehow linked.

Ah, okay. You had quoted my post, so I got a bit confused :)

[FittleLinger]

It's actually quite scary ( :lol: ) that this generation of Starks are 100% wargs, because if it's so that every 1000 Old blood (?) births produces a skinchanger, and every 1000 of those you get a greenseer, the Starks shouldn't end up being 100%.

It's curious that when the kids are developing this skill both Benjen and Ned are removed from the scene so e.g. a Bran wouldn't see if they have a bit of the gift as well. Lyanna was half a horse, so her gift might have been stronger than the other guys'.

TV

With this new filler for Bran at Craster's keep, if Craster was indeed a Stark, would they allow Bran to notice the girls have a bit of the gift as well?

Probably not.

Jon noticed that Borroq was a skinchanger, but he didn't notice in Gilly, either.

Offtopic but with regards to the spoiler part, could you elaborate?

What evidence was there that Craster was a Stark?

I mean I watched it, and didn't notice anything like that.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Sometimes I see people mention they think he is one. I'm rusty on the books so I can't provide you with quotes on why they'd think he is one, though. :blushing:

Edit: He'd be a bastard, though, not a trueborn one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Isn't the story that Craster is the son of a Night's Watch man?

[Ghost's Shadow]

You mean an unspecific one rather than a Stark one? I really wouldn't know, as I said above. You know that the answer to pretty much everything seems to be Stark, sometimes. :lol: