The Other Revelation Part II: Ice Scream Edition

[Snowisnobastard]

It also mentions that nine weirwoods in such a close location and formation to one another is "unheard of"

(Sorry for the self bump but the spot where the edit button is on my phone's screen won't respond)

Those damn fossoway phones. (Props to you if you get that)

[Envie]

This may be mentioned elsewhere in the thread but for obvious reasons I cannot go through the whole thing to check but....

Were there nine large pointed ice formations around the spot where the baby was transformed?

If so there are nine weirwoods in a circle near the wall, where Jon and Sam said their vows...

Nice catch - there's been a lot of theorizing about the numbers involved with the Others but I've never thought about any significance to the number of stones around the 'altar' or the weirwoods. What significance would 9 be?

[Hielo y Fuego]

Nice catch - there's been a lot of theorizing about the numbers involved with the Others but I've never thought about any significance to the number of stones around the 'altar' or the weirwoods. What significance would 9 be?

Well, 9 is 3 times 3. And 3 has always been one of the most important, sacred numbers in numerology (just like 7, actually). IDK how this relates to "Ice Stonehenge" as seen in the show, but it could be of relevance, just like the ring of 13 Walkers that were standing in front of the altar, as 13 is also an important number in occult numerologoy.

[Snowisnobastard]

I'm honestly not sure what the significance of 9 is yet, other than outside of asoiaf it was jimi hendrix's favorite number ;)

[BlkProphet79]

I've seen a number of posts wondering if the Others can turn humans into...well Others. It's obvious they can. For all of the myth and legend surrounding the Night's King, he was in fact, a human, possibly even a Stark. Whether it was by ritual or some other means, Brandon Stark, the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch somehow become the Night's King we just watched turn a human baby. From what we know from Old Nan's stories, the Night's King did all sorts of inhuman (as well as inhumane) acts to court the favor of his pale-skinned beauty. Perhaps, therein lies the critical element for adult humans to be turned...a willingness to conscientiously follow/swear fealty to the Great Other.

I believe that Others would rather turn newborn babies as their conscience minds are not yet fully developed so they are not able to (at a primal level) reject the otherworldy and plain wrongness of the Others. It appears to me that this revelation opens up new possibilities regarding the nature of the Others.

We know the Children of the Forest have been fighting them since before the Wall went up. Is it possible the first "White Walkers" were First Men who willingly followed the Great Other? Could they simply be CotF who decided to follow the Great Other as well? The idea of an evil entity figure subverting the agents of the "good": benevolent deity is pretty evident in a number of real-world religions, so what I posit may not be too far of a stretch. .

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm honestly not sure what the significance of 9 is yet, other than outside of asoiaf it was jimi hendrix's favorite number ;)

There are 10 ice stones in that icehenge. I counted several times. Just saying.

[Dunric]

In both the books and the show, Craster is very adamant that he is a "godly man". It has also been said by Osha that the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the wall. Two of the major tenants of the Old God religion are the laws of hospitality (which Craster observes many times by harboring the rangers) and viewing kinslaying as an act of ultimate sacrilege.

Given that Craster never kills his own sons and rather gives them to the others, is it not possible that the simplest reason for him doing so is just to ensure his survival? I'm assuming that the others also adhere to this principle against kinslaying and since many of them would be considered akin to Craster, they would be forbidden to kill him.

This would also clarify why many wildling villages are being wiped out, because they did not make similar sacrifices and as such, are not protected by the sanctity of kinship.

[Snowisnobastard]

There are 10 ice stones in that icehenge. I counted several times. Just saying.

Ah lame.

[Modesty Lannister]

Ah lame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6f7QkfDk5Q

Pause on 1.58 You have a perfect bird perspective. :cheers:

[Blazfemur]

I'm honestly not sure what the significance of 9 is yet, other than outside of asoiaf it was jimi hendrix's favorite number ;)

well, 9 X 3 = 27. 27 - 3 = 24 if you take 24, subtract another 3, it's 21. add the 2 in the 21 to 21, and you get...

...

...

23!

[grufolo]

I mean.. Who's to say that they haven't been taking babies from all random wildlings? They've just shown us them taking the 'sacrifices' from Craster. Idk if I buy that theory..

And yes, I do think people may be looking into the 'Thirteen' thing a bit too much.

But we can only interpret what we are shown.. And we were shown a lot.. But all it did was raise MORE questions than what we had before! (As intended I'm sure)

Quite simply they should have left one adult male per village, to ensure a steady supply of babies, and taken all the rest. That is, if any baby would do. If they took any wildling baby it was occasional and never mentìoned. Instead, they took the pain of travelling to Craster for every baby boy left in the woods.

It seems to me very illogical if you want to bolster your numbers not to grab all boys available. Even more if you're some kind of invincible warrior. Instead they let the wildling prosper in the thousands and tens of thousands.

A strange behaviour indeed

[Blazfemur]

Quite simply they should have left one adult per village, to ensure a steady supply, and taken all the rest. That is, if any baby would do. If they took any wildling baby it was occasional and never mentìoned. Instead, they took the pain of travelling to Craster for every baby boy left in the woods.

It seems to me very illogical if you want to bolster your numbers not to grab all boys available. Even more if you're some kind of invincible warrior. Instead they let the wildling prosper in the thousands and tens of thousands.

A strange behaviour indeed

The more wildlings that prosper, the more sacrifice they can get. I don't think it's particularly Craster's children, persay, but Craster definitely made more of a "production" and "business" out of it. He may have been appointed to do so, as some of the things he says is questionable on a look-back.

I think it's First Men blood. I think thats the key ingredient. Craster's are probably more potent, since all his daughters are incestual, their product would be more potent in First Men blood, than let's say, if Craster had a separate wife. Maybe, his original wife died, and she had First Men blood as well.

It seems like a program of a sort, and the reason he's so defensive over his daughters, could be to keep the bloodline pure (to give to the Others, with that secret ingredient).

I want to thank Florina Laufeyson, and all the contributors to this thread and the thread before it. This has been the most interesting topic in a long time, and it was new. Seriously, thank you all for making my workday go by just a little bit faster, and forcing me to think. So many things in life, dont make you think, and fail to stimulate advanced thinking (see modern day pop culture/music). This thread kept my attention, and for that I truly sincerely thank each and every one of you that has contributed decent conversation.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Quite simply they should have left one adult per village, to ensure a steady supply, and taken all the rest. That is, if any baby would do. If they took any wildling baby it was occasional and never mentìoned. Instead, they took the pain of travelling to Craster for every baby boy left in the woods.

It seems to me very illogical if you want to bolster your numbers not to grab all boys available. Even more if you're some kind of invincible warrior. Instead they let the wildling prosper in the thousands and tens of thousands.

A strange behaviour indeed

Well, in all fairness, we don't know for a fact that the Others didn't take babies from other wildling settlements. They could've killed/turned to Wights all of the village's people and so there would be no witnesses left to tell the tale.

[Blazfemur]

Well, in all fairness, we don't know for a fact that the Others didn't take babies from other wildling settlements. They could've killed/turned to Wights all of the village's people and so there would be no witnesses left to tell the tale.

This. For fuck's sake, this. There's credibility here, and ill tell you how.

The Great Ranging, searching for Benjen. They encountered 4 villages, the one they mentioned Whitetree. They found, nothing. All gone, and it was summized it may have been for a year. Where'd they go?

[Hielo y Fuego]

This. For fuck's sake, this. There's credibility here, and ill tell you how.

The Great Ranging, searching for Benjen. They encountered 4 villages, the one they mentioned Whitetree. They found, nothing. All gone, and it was summized it may have been for a year. Where'd they go?

Well, some of the Wildlings must've joined Mance's forces, of course, but not all, I would think. And moreover, the NW didn't run into any Wights till the attack on the Fist of the First Men.

Now, I'm not saying that the blood of the FM doesn't have something to do with the magic of the Others. But then again, I don't think Craster was the only Wildling who had it, and so I don't think it was only his sons that the Others took. Perhaps those were about the only boys that were given to them freely, which opens another can of worms altogether, right?

[grufolo]

But are not most wildlings heirs to the first men? I thought so, maybe i'm wrong tho

[Blazfemur]

But are not most wildlings heirs to the first men? I thought so, maybe i'm wrong tho

Mehh not exactly. Wildlings are those that typically believe in the old gods, but I think what makes them Wildlings persay, is the fact they refuse to kneel before the King of the seven kingdoms. Hypocritical, i know, since they bow before a King-Beyond-The-Wall. Not all, but some.

I think it's their refusal to show fealty to the King, that makes them wildling. I could be wrong. Some of them just so happento have First Men blood through ancestry.

[Modesty Lannister]

This. For fuck's sake, this. There's credibility here, and ill tell you how.

The Great Ranging, searching for Benjen. They encountered 4 villages, the one they mentioned Whitetree. They found, nothing. All gone, and it was summized it may have been for a year. Where'd they go?

With Mance Rayder.

[Blazfemur]

With Mance Rayder.

point taken. could just as easily happened like that as well.

[Modesty Lannister]

point taken. could just as easily happened like that as well.

Might have happened had there not been numerous statements in the books by the brothers of the NW that wildling villages were deserted because folks joined MR, while there has not been a single reference to what you are saying. So, I'd leave it in the realm of "might be" until we have a hint in other direction. Btw, all wildlings are descendants of the First Men. It is known. :-) And the Others are definitely not raiding all the villages taking male babies or coming to some kind of a deal with villagers to offer sacrifice as they did with Craster. Yet, old nan had a saying "May the Others take you", which indicated sacrifices or abductions of babies had happened in the past, because they are a part of lore beyond-the-wall, which incidentally MR was studying. So, we may conclude Craster's keep is rare, but not a completely isolated incident. What we also can conclude from the show is that there were 13 Others dressed in black who performed and/or witnessed the turning ceremony on the altar in the middle of an icehenge i.e. a holy ground. The character whom HBO briefly identified as Night's King used his icy finger to turn the baby. What we saw in the prologue of the first episode of the GoT is that Ned Stark beheaded a NW deserter with a sword called Ice within a circle of a ruined stonehenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad0hL0bRVWY

TC 0.45

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer. They set forth at daybreak to see a man beheaded, twenty in all, and Bran rode among them, nervous with excitement. Bran, AGOT

We also know that Starks are charged with dealing with justice in the north, including dealing with deserters of the NW. Since NK was a Stark or so we suspect, it may be speculated that he was a head Stark on the other side of the Wall who had the same task when it came to the NW and he performed it in a holy place equivalent with the one we saw near Winterfell. The former was made of ice, the latter of stone. If we follow this premise, we may speculate (in this stage that's all we can do) that the leadership of the Others performs a task of punishing brothers of the NW who broke their vows. So, desertion = death sentence in which case Jon and Mance should have been attacked by the Others or will be in the future. Craster was a son of a brother of the NW. What's the punishment for fathering a child? We don't know what happened to his father. What we do know is that the Others have been taking all the males from the Craster's bloodline and turning them. My guess (at this point) is that they may be doing so in order not to let blood of the traitor of the NW spread beyond-the-wall and infiltrate the wildlings. That would be consistent with keeping the part of the vows that says that a brother should not take a wife, nor father any children. The weak point here is how come Craster was not taken? Was he protected by his mother who was a Whitetree witch and made her own sacrifices? We can only wonder and make conjunctures.

Also, note that the NW vows say "we are the watchers on the walls", "we guard the realms of men". The latter point Sam argues in front of measter Aemon after bringing Gilly to the Wall. Also, note that the NW lost its purpose and turned into a punitive colony with few exceptions. So, was that what woke the Others? The fact that the NW had ceased to guard the Wall properly and other watchers are necessary? Watchers of the walls, other walls, not just the Wall? I think the NK legend should be explored in depth, along with all the stories on the kings-beyond-the-wall if we are to come to any more comprehensive conclusion.