The Other Revelation Part II: Ice Scream Edition

[Modesty Lannister]

This is from George's blog, how he responded:

He will not give anything else.

Nice haiku from George.

[Blazfemur]

It may or may not be relevant to the discussion at hand, but it'll be interesting to see if one of the mutineers were to survive next episode. If D&D are determined to troll us with unpublished implications, a single wretched 'stallion' left alive at the Keep, (when we are not simply relying on Coldhands) might serve as a hint whether the women are of sole importance, not Craster (or his father.)

I'd believe, the Others have nothing to do with the impending massacre about to occur at Craster's Keep.

Whether or not that's Coldhands comign to the rescue, saving Bran/Jojen/Meera, and escorting them to Bloodraven..

..or it's Jon and The Night's Watch saving them.

I dont htink it'll be The Others.

[Modesty Lannister]

^^ im with you on this...from the interview with D&D it seemed like their interpretation on something GRRM said to them...I think (and hope) that it will be different in the books...

Before the episode people were speculating that Bran was seeing through the babies POV on the scene...D&D said they shot the scene from the babies POV on purpose to give it a more creepy vibe....so its possible at some point in the books Bran might actually see it through the babies POV see that scene without knowing its Crasters baby...I wouldn't call it a spoiler because while its similar the book could have its own way of showing it which is very different from the show

This is a multibillion dollar enterprise GRRM and D&D created. No one is making any mistakes.

[Blazfemur]

Forming crackpot theory:

Melisandre botches a R'hllorian resurrection of Jon Snow, using a false baby (Craster's First Men-blooded baby, and not king's blood from Mance) as sacrifice to bring him back. The baby belonged to The Others, not R'hllor. Because this is an agreement, there is interference.

Laid out Jon Snow, with his blade resting in his arms as often funeral ceremonies show, gets resurrected, as an Other, inadvertantly, and kills Melisandre with his sword, Longclaw. Because Melisandre is also a magical being, when Other Jon impales Melisandre, his coldened blade hits her warm, radiant flesh, it sends a spark through the blade and the blade itself takes flame.

Irony at it's finest, Melisandre gets killed, by Azor Ahai reborn, an Other.

[salmonsnake]

I'd believe, the Others have nothing to do with the impending massacre about to occur at Craster's Keep.

I meant something to the effect of one cowardly man, hiding in a cupboard or a cellar, crawling out after the fighting with NW/warged Hodor/direwolves is over. I assume the women survive, and assume Coldhands in Martin's version doesn't slay them. In the unlikely event that it would all transpire in this manner, it could be a blatant hint, but yeah, I don't really expect any of the mutineers to survive.

[Blazfemur]

I meant something to the effect of one cowardly man, hiding in a cupboard or a cellar, crawling out after the fighting with NW/warged Hodor/direwolves is over. I assume the women survive, and assume Coldhands in Martin's version doesn't slay them. In the unlikely event that it would all transpire in this manner, it could be a blatant hint, but yeah, I don't really expect any of the mutineers to survive.

oh no theyre dead haha. whether it's next episode or whenever, theyre dying.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

This is a multibillion dollar enterprise GRRM and D&D created. No one is making any mistakes.

i didnt mean a mistake...but just D&D's interpretation of the scene rather than GRRM's....as we've seen on dozens on occasions, D&D do make a lot of changes with or without GRRM's blessing

given that fact and since D&D decide to change material that is already written, its entirely possible they used GRRM's general comments or discussions on this topic and displayed it the way they wanted...im still hoping the books will have something different, so no spoiler

[Modesty Lannister]

See my post earlier on. The title of the 10th episode is, "The Children." I for one, dont believe they mean the Children Of The Forest regarding Bran/Bloodraven. I think, this'll be a big episode involving The Others whose father they call Craster, The Children.

I think "The Children" has a multiple meaning - CotF, maybe Craster's sons, but also children of someone who may not be with us at the time.

[Modesty Lannister]

i didnt mean a mistake...but just D&D's interpretation of the scene rather than GRRM's....as we've seen on dozens on occasions, D&D do make a lot of changes with or without GRRM's blessing

given that fact and since D&D decide to change material that is already written, its entirely possible they used GRRM's general comments or discussions on this topic and displayed it the way they wanted...im still hoping the books will have something different, so no spoiler

If you really believe they do anything without George's blessing, you are naive. Especially a spoiler. There are contracts there that are worth a lot. GRRM said many times that when he writes, what's important for him is to get from A to B. He doesn't know in advance which road he will take in his creative process. But, what he knows are the main stopping points on the journey. What we saw was a stopping point. That must be coordinated. Stories like introduction of Talisa or Bran being at Craster's don't alter the main arc of the story. The scene far north with the Others is not such a scene. It has to be accurate.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

If you really believe they do anything without George's blessing, you are naive. Especially a spoiler. There are contracts there that are worth a lot. GRRM said many times that when he writes, what's important for him is to get from A to B. He doesn't know in advance which road he will take in his creative process. But, what he knows are the main stopping points on the journey. What we saw was a stopping point. That must be coordinated. Stories like introduction of Talisa or Bran being at Craster's don't alter the main arc of the story. The scene far north with the Others is not such a scene. It has to be accurate.

i am not suggesting that in books craster babies do not become WW...infact some posted a direct quote earlier from the books that clearly indicate they do. similarly i am not suggesting that they have already changed the main arc of the story. but just like how rob married talisa instead of jeyne, then died while jeyne lives, how jofferys reveal of being responsible for sending the assassin after bran or when Stannis and Renly met for their parley (no juicy fruit to haunt stannis) and many others, D&D take their own path....

im just hoping GRRM will take a different and better path while depicting something about the Land of Always Winter in the books...since they cannot show crasters baby POV or ColdHands POV or any other character following them and seeing without being seen...if there is something about NK or that scene in the book, the most logical choice is Bran seeing through the babies POV...in that case, its a safe bet that GRRM's depiction of that scene might quite different and hopefully better just like every other WW scene in books have been superior to shows (except maybe sam's...that might have been on par)

my point was, im hopeful that it was not a spoiler because

1) it might not be in the next book

2) it might be very different in the book

[Blazfemur]

I'm happy with it. I'm happy with it because i love debating about it, and waiting for our lengthy mental anguish to be satiated. I cant wait for the answers :) And if The Night's King was revealed to be a Targ and not a Stark? :o

...still wanna know why we dont know his name, and why his histories were deleted. still want to figure out why, to melisandre, the Great Other whose name shall not be spoken, and The Night's King, share the same anonymity. Perhaps The Night's King is in fact the "Great" Other, becausehe can create others in his image.

[snowy]

I think the Urskeks would have been a good place to start. Or other Froud work.

[pic]http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080531011512/darkcrystal/images/7/7c/Featured_UrSkeks.jpg[/pic]

Being a Henson worshiper I'll disagree. Henson himself was disappointed in the look of the Urskeks, and I thought they looked incomplete, so when I found out about Henson's thoughts I wish they had more time/budget so we would have gotten something more interesting. And the "Labyrinth" comment from whom you were replying to, well, I wonder if they were referring to Bowie's Goblin King? I can't think of anything else that might cause someone to reference that film for a design idea for an Other. As far as Brian Froud, I can not think of a single piece of art that compels me to suggest for an Other concept. Children of the Forest, that I can imagine, but not the Others. OK, done with my brainfog prattle.

[Modesty Lannister]

i am not suggesting that in books craster babies do not become WW...infact some posted a direct quote earlier from the books that clearly indicate they do. similarly i am not suggesting that they have already changed the main arc of the story. but just like how rob married talisa instead of jeyne, then died while jeyne lives, how jofferys reveal of being responsible for sending the assassin after bran or when Stannis and Renly met for their parley (no juicy fruit to haunt stannis) and many others, D&D take their own path....

im just hoping GRRM will take a different and better path while depicting something about the Land of Always Winter in the books...since they cannot show crasters baby POV or ColdHands POV or any other character following them and seeing without being seen...if there is something about NK or that scene in the book, the most logical choice is Bran seeing through the babies POV...in that case, its a safe bet that GRRM's depiction of that scene might quite different and hopefully better just like every other WW scene in books have been superior to shows (except maybe sam's...that might have been on par)

my point was, im hopeful that it was not a spoiler because

1) it might not be in the next book

2) it might be very different in the book

I understood you perfectly well. And I said what I think. This is a major plot development, not some sideways plot line that may be altered without consequences. I don't see why that or any other similar scene could not be told from the point of view of the WW rider. But, your idea that D&D can introduce something this big without George's thumbs up is naive. It's all about ratings and marketing at the end of the day. And I applaud all sides for a job well done. Plus, we get to have something new after years and years.

[Envie]

Being a Henson worshiper I'll disagree. Henson himself was disappointed in the look of the Urskeks, and I thought they looked incomplete, so when I found out about Henson's thoughts I wish they had more time/budget so we would have gotten something more interesting. And the "Labyrinth" comment from whom you were replying to, well, I wonder if they were referring to Bowie's Goblin King? I can't think of anything else that might cause someone to reference that film for a design idea for an Other. As far as Brian Froud, I can not think of a single piece of art that compels me to suggest for an Other concept. Children of the Forest, that I can imagine, but not the Others. OK, done with my brainfog prattle.

That was me who said Labyrinth and I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was concurring that the way they made the Night's King (or whatever he was) look reminded me of something you'd see in a fantasy film from that early 80s time era (Legend, Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, etc) and NOT a more modern fantasy with dark undertones. I mean 'modern' to say it's been written recently not took place recently. ;) In fact his appearance wasn't that far off from Darth Maul (hence the Ice Maul reference) from recent Star Wars episodes. I wasn't really trying to be overly critical... I actually love ALL those films and the creatures / beings in them. I was simply saying the way they've done the White Walkers wasn't as I had hoped or imagined they would look in response to someone else before me who I quoted and was critical of their looks.

But we've already moved beyond the "this is how they chose to make them look, get over it and deal" phase of the conversation. Sorry, just wanted to clarify the statement I was misquoted about. :P

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm happy with it. I'm happy with it because i love debating about it, and waiting for our lengthy mental anguish to be satiated. I cant wait for the answers :) And if The Night's King was revealed to be a Targ and not a Stark? :o

...still wanna know why we dont know his name, and why his histories were deleted. still want to figure out why, to melisandre, the Great Other whose name shall not be spoken, and The Night's King, share the same anonymity. Perhaps The Night's King is in fact the "Great" Other, becausehe can create others in his image.

I agree this naming thing is important. Name is a taboo for the Great Other, Night's King and all babies north of the Wall at least for the first 2 years. Does that mean that if you name them, you know their location immediately?

[Blazfemur]

I think after 2 threads, and over 1115 posts, i think im actually at a loss at the moment. i think there's a secret in that whitetree chapter revealing SOMEthing about Craster and his importance (regarding his mother).

Other than that, i cant really think of anything more at this time lmao.

[Blazfemur]

I agree this naming thing is important. Name is a taboo for the Great Other, Night's King and all babies north of the Wall at least for the first 2 years. Does that mean that if you name them, you know their location immediately?

hmmm... this is an interesting point, and i never got the correlation until just now. Why cant they name there babies before 2?

"Dont you dare name that baby, Jon Snow!" before she leaves

[Blazfemur]

Why am I getting visions along the lines of,

"oh, dont bother naming that baby.. it's just an other baby, we'll give it to the gods.."

Their name, The Others.. were they the "Other" children? like, the second-born, or, bastardborn? All of Craster's children would technically be, bastards.

:o

JONS AN OTHER CHILD

Maybe that's the missing ingredient! Not First Men blood, but Bastard blood.

That would make all Others bastards. Maybe that's the key, though. The payment, is all your bastard boys.

[Envie]

All of Craster's children would technically be, bastards.

Wait, what?

Craster wasn't a noble, and his wives / daughters were just wildlings. How does that make his sons bastards?

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I understood you perfectly well. And I said what I think. This is a major plot development, not some sideways plot line that may be altered without consequences. I don't see why that or any other similar scene could not be told from the point of view of the WW rider. But, your idea that D&D can introduce something this big without George's thumbs up is naive. It's all about ratings and marketing at the end of the day. And I applaud all sides for a job well done. Plus, we get to have something new after years and years.

GRRM has already mentioned no new POV's in remaining 2 books. I based it on that. Also, I believe if they were going to do a WW POV, they would have during the prologue of first book, or during sam's scene...i highly doubt they will suddenly start POV of a new character who happens to be of possibly a different species! then why not introduce POV of a dragon?

i have never thought D&D did such a scene without GRRM's approval and neither have i mentioned anything of that kind. since you are convinced to think me naive, i will cease to argue with you about this and allow you to think and judge as you will.

despite your claim that you understood me perfectly well, you clearly have not. my point was simply that i am hoping GRRM's description of the scene (if it is there at all) will be different and possibly better than in the show. For the record, I was very happy and impressed with the scene in the show. I was just disagreeing with those who seem convinced that this is a big spoiler from the next book.