Arya is NOT a sociopath

[James Arryn]

Well, calling her a psychopath certainly isn't positive is it? They're effectively saying she's incapable of loving anyone (this includes friends and family) and is incapable of having genuine emotions.

& it seems to be mostly on the basis of killing people without remorse when characters who fit the criteria better than she does Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Roose, LF, Tywin, etc. either won't get called that or nearly to the same degree.

I also have a problem with someone calling her psychopathic and calling her insane in the same sentence which often happens. If you're going to diagnose someone at least don't give them symptoms that are contradictory to what you're calling them.

Insane and psychopathic are not contradictory; they are qualifiers from different fields. Sanity is a legal distinction, not a psychological one.

Tyrion may well have disturbing pathologies, same goes for most of the others. Liking a character does not in my mind preclude being able to abide non-complimentary opinions of them. They are not real people, so their feelings are not endangered by non-compliments.

[Fagatron]

Now I've read it all. We are suppose to pity Arya? You can't be further from what R.R. wants. Arya is a fighter, a survivor, she needs no pity as her character wasn't made to be pitted. If that was the case R.R. would have killed her off 3 books ago. Though I would be sad if Arya dies, I just don't see it happening. We will see great things from Arya and I will keep a copy of this post, so when Arya is alive and well at the end of the series I can say, You were wrong, Haha, you stupid dumb Dykeeenie... Wait that was a willow quote but we can have a laugh with how wrong you were.

[ARYa_Nym]

Insane and psychopathic are not contradictory; they are qualifiers from different fields. Sanity is a legal distinction, not a psychological one.

Tyrion may well have disturbing pathologies, same goes for most of the others. Liking a character does not in my mind preclude being able to abide non-complimentary opinions of them. They are not real people, so their feelings are not endangered by non-compliments.

Psycopaths do know right from wrong. They just do not care and will do wrong anyway if they want to.

If we go by they're not real people then no character gets hate because they can't feel it so the whole point of there being hate is moot based on that argument.

[James Arryn]

Psycopaths do know right from wrong. They just do not care and will do wrong anyway if they want to.

If we go by they're not real people then no character gets hate because they can't feel it so the whole point of there being hate is moot based on that argument.

1) Sanity is not defined by knowing right from wrong so much as being in control of their actions. Mens rea is necessary for a conviction, but that doesn't mean the actor has to know it was wrong; just that he or she did it. So, again, sanity is not contradictory...it's irrelevant. A psychopath can be either sane or insane depending upon the judicial strictures of w/e region they're in and the specifics of their condition.

2) I agree. I think the whole 'hating' thing is silly, tbh, and is only policed because of the reactions it evokes. But it's also used as such a wide brush, often in response to perfectly valid opinions fans of some characters do not want to hear. It's an easy 2 step confirmation bias exercise.

[ARYa_Nym]

1) Sanity is not defined by knowing right from wrong so much as being in control of their actions. Mens rea is necessary for a conviction, but that doesn't mean the actor has to know it was wrong; just that he or she did it. So, again, sanity is not contradictory...it's irrelevant. A psychopath can be either sane or insane depending upon the judicial strictures of w/e region they're in and the specifics of their condition.

2) I agree. I think the whole 'hating' thing is silly, tbh, and is only policed because of the reactions it evokes. But it's also used as such a wide brush, often in response to perfectly valid opinions fans of some characters do not want to hear. It's an easy 2 step confirmation bias exercise.

Being coldly calculated is one of their main traits. They knew full well what they were doing.

ETA:

To be clear, insanity is a legal term pertaining to a defendant's ability to determine right from wrong when a crime is committed. Here's the first sentence of law.com's lengthy definition:

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

I think you're free to disregard what is said about a character because they're not real people but not everyone has to have that attitude. I'm sure there wouldn't be so much back and forth online discussion if everyone felt that way.

I wouldn't call it hate but it's certainly something negative that is used specifically towards her given that I've said other characters can do the same thing but for some reason she is the one incapable of love, she can show the same amount of remorse but it only matters that she is not that remorseful, etc.

[Modesty Lannister]

Being coldly calculated is one of their main traits. They knew full well what they were doing.

ETA:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

I think you're free to disregard what is said about a character because they're not real people but not everyone has to have that attitude. I'm sure there wouldn't be so much back and forth online discussion if everyone felt that way.

I wouldn't call it hate but it's certainly something negative that is used specifically towards her given that I've said other characters can do the same thing but for some reason she is the one incapable of love, she can show the same amount of remorse but it only matters that she is not that remorseful, etc.

With all do respect, I'd just like to point out that I read this whole thread and, at least, my general impression is that most posters do not hate Arya. Arya was a vary loveable and relatable character for many in AGOT. Then her journey through hell begins and she sees and witnesses things that would damage any person. This created a strong bond between readers and Arya, because no one wants a child to suffer the way she did. The Red Wedding is a climax of her suffering and drama. No other Stark child had to see their brother's body desecrated in the most horrible way or see their dead mother slaughtered in the river. These images alone would create a severe trauma in anyone. So, the level of trauma in Arya is heartbreaking and many people feel deeply or Arya. It is visible in this tread. It is also logical that, after all she saw, Arya becames a death worshiper. Logical does not mean healthy for her. And because readers feel for Arya, they are very afraid for her sanity and her identity at the end of the day. The only two things linking Arya with her previous identity are the Needle and her wolf dreams. Most of the time when she says she is no one, she believes it. It's sad and heartbreaking. Killing of the ship insurance salesman was her Rubicon. What does she know of that man? Nothing. What has he done to her or her family? Nothing. We may assume he is a crook, but that is not enough to kill someone in cold blood after days of careful study of his daily behavioural patterns. With that episode Arya becomes a hit girl. Whoever loves her character would feel very afraid for that little girl at the moment for she did not exercise rightful revenge, but a cold-blooded murder without just cause simply because she was ordered to do so. Being concerned at this moment about her character's sanity and future is only natural and I see it as a sign of affection for the character.

[ARYa_Nym]

With all do respect, I'd just like to point out that I read this whole thread and, at least, my general impression is that most posters do not hate Arya. Arya was a vary loveable and relatable character for many in AGOT. Then her journey through hell begins and she sees and witnesses things that would damage any person. This created a strong bond between readers and Arya, because no one wants a child to suffer the way she did. The Red Wedding is a climax of her suffering and drama. No other Stark child had to see their brother's body desecrated in the most horrible way or see their dead mother slaughtered in the river. These images alone would create a severe trauma in anyone. So, the level of trauma in Arya is heartbreaking and many people feel deeply or Arya. It is visible in this tread. It is also logical that, after all she saw, Arya becames a death worshiper. Logical does not mean healthy for her. And because readers feel for Arya, they are very afraid for her sanity and her identity at the end of the day. The only two things linking Arya with her previous identity are the Needle and her wolf dreams. Most of the time when she says she is no one, she believes it. It's sad and heartbreaking. Killing of the ship insurance salesman was her Rubicon. What does she know of that man? Nothing. What has he done to her or her family? Nothing. We may assume he is a crook, but that is not enough to kill someone in cold blood after days of careful study of his daily behavioural patterns. With that episode Arya becomes a hit girl. Whoever loves her character would feel very afraid for that little girl at the moment for she did not exercise rightful revenge, but a cold-blooded murder without just cause simply because she was ordered to do so. Being concerned at this moment about her character's sanity and future is only natural and I see it as a sign of affection for the character.

I just said I wouldn't call it hate so saying that they do not hate Arya has nothing to do with what I said.

I've been on these boards a long time and I've seen on other sites that the vast majority calling her a psychopath do not like her as well. They are also the same ones who are saying she is too damaged and needs to die but I know for a fact some of them like other murderers like Jamie and the Hound. Of course it's not all but it's a lot.

If you've read this thread you will also know that not everyone likes her. They have the right to but it's clearly not they think she's nuts and that's a sign that they like her.

You seem to be conflating that if a fan doesn't say she's psychopathic or psychotic then that means they don't think she's done anything wrong, they don't know that she's dark, and they don't know that she's a murderer. I don't need to be explained what she's done.

I did post the comparison to child soldiers. I surely do know what she's done. Many IRL child soldiers will do much worse things than her and I've already posted examples of them doing cannibalistic things, necrophilia, and killing their own family members.

To the topic, saying that she has a problem that really isn't curable and makes her incapable of love I don't think is saying you're concerned and hope she gets better. If she has that then she won't just one day not be a psychopath. Seeing family wouldn't change that. They're just more eventual victims. Leaving revenge behind wouldn't change that. She'll just find a new avenue for her behavior.

[Metopheles]

the vast majority calling her a psychopath do not like her as well.

Who likes a psychopath?

And your points do not make any sense, nor do they relate to any arguments given or to Arya for that matter. You just bring up random points about child soldiers and cannibalism and necrophilia.. do you even read what you write? It doesn't make any sense in the discussion.

First you go against me with arguments that do not have to do with what I said, now here..

[Mithras]

Who likes a psychopath?

Those who like Euron. There are many of them in the Forum.

[ARYa_Nym]

Who likes a psychopath?

And your points do not make any sense, nor do they relate to any arguments given or to Arya for that matter. You just bring up random points about child soldiers and cannibalism and necrophilia.. do you even read what you write? It doesn't make any sense in the discussion.

First you go against me with arguments that do not have to do with what I said, now here..

Well, you're not helping the other poster's argument .

I was saying that child soldiers do much worse things than her so saying that she is comparable to them does not mean that I'm unaware of the things she's done just because I don't agree with a diagnosis. Child soldiers are relatable to Arya. It's already been explained that GRRM himself said so.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't think to like her you have to want her to go back to what she was or be good again but I equally don't think that to like her you must think she is psychopathic because that means you care.

I appreciate what you said, but what I just wanted to convey here is that being afraid that a character one is fond of is sinking into madness or becoming a cold bloodied killer is not the same as hating the character. For example, I love Tyrion, but I think he is sinking into madness at this point in the books. I hated Jaime in AGOT. Now I like him. That's what's great about these books. You start off with a certain perception and then layers fall off and your perception changes or a behaviour of a character changes due to circumstances that drove them to change. As in life, in these so life-like books, characters are irrevocably affected and formed by traumatic events. I made several posts stating she is not a sociopath and stressing GRRM compared her to a child soldier. We agree on that I think. But, I do think she is becoming dark and that worries me because I like her character. All I'm saying that should not be seen as a hate for a character. It's just an analysis on where the character may be heading to. I really don't look on other threads and I don't know who on this thread consistently bashes Arya on other threads. So, I cannot possibly comment on that. You may be right about it. I simply don't know. All I'm saying is that I don't see most of the comments on this thread as Arya-hate. I certainly don't hate that character.

[ARYa_Nym]

I appreciate what you said, but what I just wanted to convey here is that being afraid that a character one is fond of is sinking into madness or becoming a cold bloodied killer is not the same as hating the character. For example, I love Tyrion, but I think he is sinking into madness at this point in the books. I hated Jaime in AGOT. Now I like him. That's what's great about these books. You start off with a certain perception and then layers fall off and your perception changes or a behaviour of a character changes due to circumstances that drove them to change. As in life, in these so life-like books, characters are irrevocably affected and formed by traumatic events. I made several posts stating she is not a sociopath and stressing GRRM compared her to a child soldier. We agree on that I think. But, I do think she is becoming dark and that worries me because I like her character. All I'm saying that should not be seen as a hate for a character. It's just an analysis on where the character may be heading to. I really don't look on other threads and I don't know who on this thread consistently bashes Arya on other threads. So, I cannot possibly comment on that. You may be right about it. I simply don't know. All I'm saying is that I don't see most of the comments on this thread as Arya-hate. I certainly don't hate that character.

I didn't say that thinking she is becoming a cold blooded killer is the same as hating her. In fact I would say that she is already is one. I actually already said in this thread that she is cold blooded but it's learned behavior. That's not the same as what's happening and what it entails when she gets called a psychopath.

ETA: Granted I expressly said I wouldn't call that hate either but it's definitely negative and there is a correlation b/w dislike for her and calling her that although that does not apply to everyone. I've also said I dislike the fact that she gets called this more than the characters who fit the criteria better than her do.

[jon stark I]

From Start to the end of Dance, lets see Arya.

In AGOT we are first introduced her as a child who wants something different the most girls want at her age.She goes on adventures with her friends, she doesn't care about someones name or the power they hold everyone is equal in her mind.She likes discovering new things like different kinds of flowers on their trip or looking for Rhaegars ruby on trident, mostly she is a happy normal child with a great sense of adventure.Then her friend gets killed and only ones who show really sorrow are Arya and Ned(Sansa never mentions Mycah in any one of the books).She learns her first lesson noone can be trusted and people will say anything to get what they want(Sansa not telling the truth) and telling the truth doesn't mean that you will get justice, she learns from one single action that truth, justice and right are only words and their meaning is defined by those who have power.She hates her sister for not telling the truth and she blames her for the deaths of Lady and Mycah also the loss of Nymeria.But when her father talks to her she says she doesn't hate Sansa not really and she still shows some king of affection to Sansa(unlike Sansa ever does she blames Arya for everything while it is her fault).Then she gets Syrio as her teacher and she commits herself to her lessons she never complains about getting hurt or getting dirty.And then all of a sudden her father gets beheaded her teacher gets killed, people she knew all her life gone in a single moment.And in a terrified moment she kills someone by total mistake.

She is on road with Yoren right now and she is performing her duties as a part of the party she is in.She still doesn't complain she acts violent but ask whoever you want everyone will tell you that violent behaviour is expected from a recetly orphened child.She faces Lannisters for the first time when they attack her party and she defends herself but while everyone is trying to escape she goes on and saves those three monsterous criminals.She gets Gendry and Hot Pie to carry Lommy while they were going to leave him she saves the little girl and when they get caught she performs her duties in Harenhal and when she sees her chance she acts.Remember what Bolton guards did to the servants and Pia?Let me tell you they roped them and they were repeatedly raped by Bolton men because they were Lannister servants.When she gets a chance to escape she feels bad for the guy who helped them but she does what she needs to survive and she kills the guard.

I will continue ......So far what part is so evil?

[Elaena Targaryen]

With all do respect, I'd just like to point out that I read this whole thread and, at least, my general impression is that most posters do not hate Arya.

With all do respect, I'd just like to point out that this particular thread has been pretty tame and all most everyone seems to be engaging in a productive discourse on the topic, which in general is very unusual around these parts. The majority of the time, in other threads, some pop in with "Arya is psycho", or something similar, and it is intended with hate and disgust leaving any further discussion a waste of time. So it may be cathartic for some to talk about this here where, although everyone may not agree, at least there is some level of understanding and I believe this is the whole point of the thread.

Arya was a vary loveable and relatable character for many in AGOT. Then her journey through hell begins and she sees and witnesses things that would damage any person. This created a strong bond between readers and Arya, because no one wants a child to suffer the way she did. The Red Wedding is a climax of her suffering and drama. No other Stark child had to see their brother's body desecrated in the most horrible way or see their dead mother slaughtered in the river. These images alone would create a severe trauma in anyone. So, the level of trauma in Arya is heartbreaking and many people feel deeply or Arya. It is visible in this tread. It is also logical that, after all she saw, Arya becames a death worshiper. Logical does not mean healthy for her. And because readers feel for Arya, they are very afraid for her sanity and her identity at the end of the day. The only two things linking Arya with her previous identity are the Needle and her wolf dreams. Most of the time when she says she is no one, she believes it. It's sad and heartbreaking.

Yes and when you are analyzing the character like this the ones who call her a psycho don't want to contemplate any of that, they say that you are just making excuses for your favorite character, and they can not comprehend anything beyond - it does not matter 'cause Arya is a psycho. Well I find most Arya fans know she is a dark character, and turning darker by the minute, but that does not make analysis irrelevant and in fact I find it more interesting to do so.

ARYa_Nym, as far as I've have seen in other threads, is the first to say she feels that Arya is a cold-blooded killer and that she finds it likely that Arya will die. From what I have seen here on the forum is that the most devoted Arya fans do know she is dark, a killer, do not expect a happy ending for Arya, nor have I seen them expect Arya to go back to the lovable girl from the beginning of the story as that's impossible at this point.

I can honestly say I feel the reason that we do not see hundreds of heated threads arguing over Arya the way we see with Dany, Stannis, Sansa, etc. is that most Arya fans are capable of admitting her flaws, like "yea your right, she is, or she did, or whatever", the fans do not need to defend Arya's honor and make excuses, they just want to discuss an intriguing character. The main exception being discussing her motivations over a particular 'kill', which can get distorted on both sides, but I very rarely see those that I view as the 'main' Arya fans engaging in those arguments.

It's the not so random "Arya is a disgusting psycho /discussion" that is annoying and frustrating as it completely disregards a masterfully written character.

Killing of the ship insurance salesman was her Rubicon. What does she know of that man? Nothing. What has he done to her or her family? Nothing. We may assume he is a crook, but that is not enough to kill someone in cold blood after days of careful study of his daily behavioural patterns. With that episode Arya becomes a hit girl. Whoever loves her character would feel very afraid for that little girl at the moment for she did not exercise rightful revenge, but a cold-blooded murder without just cause simply because she was ordered to do so. Being concerned at this moment about her character's sanity and future is only natural and I see it as a sign of affection for the character.

I'm asking this out of mere curiosity and it's not intended as argumentative, nor do I want to disregard how important this turning point is for Arya's character but...

How do you feel about Jaqen as a character? Do you find him cool, interesting, scary, insane? Do you worry about him? What are the differences with Jaqen and Arya here for you? I do understand that we have been with Arya from the start and we have seen her transformation into a "hit girl" even so, although that makes it more difficult for us since we care more for her, Arya is not the only killer in the series. So while I fully understand the concern for Arya I just wonder why becoming a hired killer, in this setting, makes you question her sanity?

FWIW I feel Arya will end up emotionally disturbed if Martin writes Arya as choosing to stop killing but not if he writes her to continue her course as an assassin.

[Modesty Lannister]

How do you feel about Jaqen as a character? Do you find him cool, interesting, scary, insane? Do you worry about him? What are the differences with Jaqen and Arya here for you? I do understand that we have been with Arya from the start and we have seen her transformation into a "hit girl" even so, although that makes it more difficult for us since we care more for her, Arya is not the only killer in the series. So while I fully understand the concern for Arya I just wonder why becoming a hired killer, in this setting, makes you question her sanity?

FWIW I feel Arya will end up emotionally disturbed if Martin writes Arya as choosing to stop killing but not if he writes her to continue her course as an assassin.

As I said, I really did not follow any other Arya threads, so I cannot possibly comment. I was just pointing out that I didn't get hate vibe on this thread, so I'm not clear about your motives for singling me out in your post since I'm advocating analysis above emotions here. If you did so to explain and/or add to what Arya_Nym has already stated on the issue of Arya bashers, I take a note of that, but as I said I cannot comment further on that. I'm just worried that other posters may feel I'm Arya basher somehow, because you singled out my post.

As for your curiosity driven questions, I'd try to answer them although I worry since they are off thread topic, so it is derailing this thread.

To start from the end question - I believe sanity of every fictional or actual hit man or woman should be questioned, because the very profession of a hit man/woman/child is immoral and criminal. Since Arya is an apprentice in the field and GRRM has created and crafted a bond between that character and readers, I worry that she may lose all moral ground and cease to have the sense of justice Ned infused into her upbringing that she has been faithful to while in Westeros despite of her endless suffering. As for Jaqen, GRRM did not give us his POV, so we cannot have an insight into what drives him or into his psychological profile. Judging from his actions, he is a cold blooded killer with a secret mission possibly related to either the Wall, the Old Town or both. What distinguished Jaqen from an ordinary hit man is that he is following the rules of the sect of death worship he belongs to. Hence he has his own moral code that seems morally flawed, but is hardly unique in these books, and can be boiled down to the code of Red Priesthood or the Esoss witch - only death may pay for life. So, I find Jaqen morally flawed and dangerous, but I am not bonded with his character, so I can analyse his actions without any attachment and solely within the context of the plot. In Arya's case, as a reader I am invested in the character and remember Arya from AGOT only too well, as well as her transformation. So, I feel emphatic towards her and try to analyse her actions within the framework of her arc, which is impossible with Jaqen, because I have no knowledge of his arc. Yet.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I'm just worried that other posters may feel I'm Arya basher somehow, because you singled out my post.

No, don't worry, I do not feel that way and I doubt that you have given that impression to others. I could just sense that you may not have seen some of the BS that has gone on in other threads so I only wanted to plainly explain why some might seem sensitive to the 'psycho' argument. Which, if I have the correct impression, is what also drove the OP to start the thread as well.

As for your curiosity driven questions, I'd try to answer them although I worry since they are off thread topic, so it is derailing this thread.

Thank you for your response. I only, out of curiosity, wanted to flesh out your thoughts just little further concerning the cult and the assasins since you obviously are not just a surface reader, and I mean that as a complement.

[Modesty Lannister]

Thank you for your response. I only, out of curiosity, wanted to flesh out your thoughts just little further concerning the cult and the assasins since you obviously are not just a surface reader, and I mean that as a complement.

Thanks. If I may, can I respond with a curiosity question. What do you think about FacelessMen cult in general in the context of the series? I know we are continuing off thread and I do apologise to OP. Pls, alert us if we are crossing the line of derailment here.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Thanks. If I may, can I respond with a curiosity question. What do you think about FacelessMen cult in general in the context of the series? I know we are continuing off thread and I do apologise to OP. Pls, alert us if we are crossing the line of derailment here.

Yes, no problem and I'll try to keep this brief since, as you have mentioned, I do not wish to derail either.

I general the FM cult in the context of the series does not necessarily morally offend me as I view it as world building, a natural background. They are mysterious and intriguing and that leads to a desire for more information, it's an attraction to my curious nature. Jaqen is such an interesting character himself, then the whole three wishes/[kills] trope, Arya idealizing him, now what's happening at the Citadel... but yes he is a cold blooded killer. At first I was excited when Arya went to the House just so I could see more about the FM and I'm still intrigued, but it's obvious they lay their creed on way to thickly and in the end I feel they are being so much more manipulative with Arya than most readers can imagine. I see so many opinions where some think the FM could help Arya tone down her impulsive need for vengeance but I feel they very subtly encourage it. In other words a holy killing cult or assassins wearing a holy cult mask, (?), either way is interesting to read about and analyze for me from a story perspective as it would be too horrifying to face in RL. Am I concerned for Arya - absolutely - since I don't trust what the KM says, but am I bothered by her becoming an assassin - not really - it's hardly the first series I've read where a protagonist has become an assassin or killer... however I do appreciate the story most when what they have done wears on them emotionally, it's more realistic since just because some people are capable of killing where others cannot does not mean they are not human with human emotions. (leaving aside certain mental/personality disorders) If in the end Arya ends up a monster, villain, destroyed by her actions, so long as it's written well, could be a more compelling story than simply running home with her tail between her legs. Though, no matter what happens, I'm afraid Arya's arc will continue to be heartbreaking since it has been so all along.

[Lonin]

An interesting thread. I don't think Arya is that "hated" by posters here. Arya is one of my favorites - I would suggest people read the Arya threads in the Re-read project section oh the boards - some very insightful comments there.

Is Arya a sociopath/psychopath ? That's a difficult question. I don't think you can use present day definitions/analysis to determine that, note that many of the important academic papers on the topic have been written in the last 10-15 years.

The real question is what did GRRM mean for us to think?? GRRM got his M.S. (Journalism) in 1971 - I am not sure he stayed uptodate in the sociopath/psychopath field. With Joff, the cat episode, he was pretty clear that Joff had issues. I don't think he supplied any obvious clues/hints regarding Arya. I found Arya a very likeable character at the start- which is what I believe GGRRM intended. It would take me another reread - with a critical eye, looking for possible clues/hints pointing to issues with Arya.

[Metopheles]

The real question is what did GRRM mean for us to think?? GRRM got his M.S. (Journalism) in 1971 - I am not sure he stayed uptodate in the sociopath/psychopath field. With Joff, the cat episode, he was pretty clear that Joff had issues. I don't think he supplied any obvious clues/hints regarding Arya. I found Arya a very likeable character at the start- which is what I believe GGRRM intended. It would take me another reread - with a critical eye, looking for possible clues/hints pointing to issues with Arya.

Interesting you bring that up. Didn't Arya kill a pigeon for no reason at all? She twisted its neck and threw it to the ground.

Maybe she intended to eat it..but why not just steal some buns.?