Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Well the Cthaeh specifically says there are no burns or scars from her interactions with her patron. But you could be completely right that he's beating her; I think that's the most popular interpretation of the Cthaeh's words. Though even if he is beating her, others have suggested that he's training her to fight.

I think the only thing we can take away for sure from the Cthaeh's words on Master Ash is that the Cthaeh wants Kvothe to hate Master Ash, which is interesting since Ash seems to be pro-Chandrian. The Cthaeh also inflames Kvothe's hate against Cinder. I'm guessing the Chandrian either aren't as bad as PR would have us believe, or trying to clash with them would be catastrophically destructive.

Ignore the Ctheah and base your determination on Denna's responses, if you must. Ash clearly beat her at Trebon and he clearly beat her in Severn. Following her linking up with Ash, she is covered in injuries consistent with domestic abuse every time we see her. We know unequivocally that he beat her in Trebon. It is all but certain he did the same in Severn. She is forever covered in bruises and cuts and scars. Kvothe could see the more recent scars through her shift when they were fooling around in the river at the end of TWF.

We're also told that the Ctheah doesn't lie... it reveals facts that will cause maximum pain and suffering, but facts they remain.

Based on the world-coming-apart-at-the-seams Interlude, I think the Ctheah did a decent job with what he had at his disposal. A 5 minute chance interaction with a 16 year old arcanist has led to complete chaos, war, and an apparent influx of evil Faen creatures from beyond the doors of stone into the 4C’ from the East.

[jumbles]

Ignore the Ctheah and base your determination on Denna's responses, if you must. Ash clearly beat her at Trebon and he clearly beat her in Severn. Following her linking up with Ash, she is covered in injuries consistent with domestic abuse every time we see her. We know unequivocally that he beat her in Trebon. It is all but certain he did the same in Severn. She is forever covered in bruises and cuts and scars. Kvothe could see the more recent scars through her shift when they were fooling around in the river at the end of TWF.

We're also told that the Ctheah doesn't lie... it reveals facts that will cause maximum pain and suffering, but facts they remain.

Based on the world-coming-apart-at-the-seams Interlude, I think the Ctheah did a decent job with what he had at his disposal. A 5 minute chance interaction with a 16 year old arcanist has led to complete chaos, war, and an apparent influx of evil Faen creatures from beyond the doors of stone into the 4C’ from the East.

I think I used some misleading language in my recent Cthaeh posts. I wasn't trying to argue that Ash doesn't beat Denna. I was just trying to argue that the Cthaeh doesn't explicitly state that it happens. I totally agree that he hit her at Trebon and that there's a good chance he's done it since and plans to do it again. But at the same time I acknowledge the chance (however slim) that something else is going on.

And as far as the Cthaeh revealing facts and not lying, I'm not saying that's not true. I'm saying that most of the facts either need important details filled in -details that seem so obvious that we fill them in without noticing or thinking about it- or are stated right next to other facts that sound like they have an obvious connection but may have no connection at all. And there are a few times the Cthaeh sounds like it's giving facts but is just stating possibilities or asking questions.

[unJon]

Based on the world-coming-apart-at-the-seams Interlude, I think the Ctheah did a decent job with what he had at his disposal. A 5 minute chance interaction with a 16 year old arcanist has led to complete chaos, war, and an apparent influx of evil Faen creatures from beyond the doors of stone into the 4C from the East.

it's silly to give credit to the Ctheah for all of that. If it all went bad, Kvothe did it or Haliax did it, etc.

Also it is consistent with the info we have to think Ash only beats Denna in the sense of martial arts training. Don't know that I buy it, but I can't refute it.

[Circle_breaker]

One theory I really liked was Master Ash being the Maer,

Denna's colours of Blue and White

The temper and secrecy.

The walking cane.

Interest in the Amyr and Chandrian.

Denna not wanting to meet him with Kvothe.

I also think the Sithe didn't stop Kvothe from reaching the Ctheah is because they were chasing down Cindor who was near by.

[Circle_breaker]

One theory I really liked was Master Ash being the Maer,

Denna's colours of Blue and White

The temper and secrecy.

The walking cane.

Interest in the Amyr and Chandrian.

Denna not wanting to meet him with Kvothe.

I also think the Sithe didn't stop Kvothe from reaching the Ctheah is because they were chasing down Cindor who was near by.

[Lol]

One theory I really liked was Master Ash being the Maer,

Denna's colours of Blue and White

The temper and secrecy.

The walking cane.

Interest in the Amyr and Chandrian.

Denna not wanting to meet him with Kvothe.

I also think the Sithe didn't stop Kvothe from reaching the Ctheah is because they were chasing down Cindor who was near by.

The part where the Maer goes all over the 4C to mess around with some random girl. its definetily not him, :). Unless he goes to random barns in the middle of nowhere thousands of miles from his home

[J1n]

it's silly to give credit to the Ctheah for all of that. If it all went bad, Kvothe did it or Haliax did it, etc.

Also it is consistent with the info we have to think Ash only beats Denna in the sense of martial arts training. Don't know that I buy it, but I can't refute it.

This and the cthaeh asking so many questions is what leads me to believe it's power is overstated due to generations of it's overhyped reputation.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

It may well be silly to accredit Ctheah with all thats happened... But it also is sort of exactly what it is purported to do... Taking a one time encounter and turning that one conversation into cataclysm on a grand scale. Chat with Lanre led to the destruction of the cities, chat with Jax/Iax led to the creation war. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that Kvothe was used similarly? Kvothe seems to think its all his fault.

The Ctheah didn't seem to be seeking information as much ad it was goading Kvothe... 'Are you really going to try and kill the Chandrian?' 'Do you know what he did to your mother?' Just before that, the Ctheah demonstrated pretty clearly that it knew full well what Kvothe was really obsessed about.

The Ctheah is far from all powerful. It's malice is 100% dependent on someone seeking it out and reaching it, AND making it back from whence that someone came. That said, it's still a pretty good shot, I'd say.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Does Denna ask about "written magic" before or after the fire in the fishery... (After which, Kvothe is unable to meet Denna and she meets Ash?) That could be telling. Especially in light of her constantly rebraiding her hair.

When D & K start arguing in Severn, she rebraids her hair hastily and then like a switch is thrown, Kvothe started unleashing on her. Surely there must be a connection. Just a thought.

I'm pretty confident denna is getting beaten by Ash.

[Ninefingers]

A bit of a departure from our normal conversation, have any of you heard of TEMPEST?

It was a government project related to spying on electronics. In short, with the proper type of antenna one can tell what a computer monitor is displaying through a brick wall. There are ways to prevent this, of course. One of the most common involves using ...... copper mesh.

[williamjm]

Does anyone know what Pat Rothfuss read from at his Worldcon reading?

I didn't go to it, but I heard that it was a short excerpt from the upcoming story about Auri.

[Lol]

This and the cthaeh asking so many questions is what leads me to believe it's power is overstated due to generations of it's overhyped reputation.

If the cthaeh really does know everysingle possible history and timeline then it shuold have the power to do that

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

The Ctheah can't know all and guide all, Free will being what it is. But I think the Ctheah approach is to see an end goal & set a plan in motion where many paths can/will lead to that intended outcome the Ctheah envisioned.

That said, it obviously cannot possibly be fool proof...

Have any of you have read the Dune novels (original ones... Not the over-hyped-low-budget-can-fic-quality latter day installments, of course)? The Ctheah reminds me somewhat of the Tlielaxu ... In their approach to diabolical plans. Whenever they scheme against someone, they ALWAYS leave a possible escape hatch (figuratively speaking) for their victim. The Ctheah's evil schemes remind me of that somewhat, save for the fact that the potential off-ramp from the disaster highway is not put there intentionally.

When Ctheah sets a plan in motion, the forseen outcome is HIGHLY probable to occur.... But by no means is it a sure thing.

Bast may have somewhat overstated its ability, but not by very much I don't think.

Yes it is evil,

Yes it has oracular vision

Yes, that ability and intent can combine with devastating effect.

But NO, it is not infallible.

Felurian has been around far longer than Bast and she certainly didn't act as if Kvothe was some sort of Ctheah-tainted lost cause, doomed no matter what.

[Proudfeet]

Bast was definitely overreacting. The Ctheah has limited control, and is probably more analogous to a person of authority giving orders than a programmer coding.

There's also the issue of the person who meets the Ctheah. Bast's fear of the Ctheah is the secondary effects that the conversation that will lead to, but these effects are limited to what that person is capable of. If it was a random farmer or mercenary, they could potentially create a lot of trouble, but it is unlikely that they will be able to start a war.

Regardless of whether the super prophetic ability is real or an exaggeration, there is only so much you can do with just a conversation and there is only so much a person could affect. Otherwise, the world was already predetermined from when Iax talked to the Ctheah and stole the moon.

[Proudfeet]

Ugh. Can't get paragraphs to work. Even with edit.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Ugh. Can't get paragraphs to work. Even with edit.

It can be immensely frustrating. I went and downloaded the damned app, which is also full of its own programming bugs. It crashes everytime I make a post, but so far the posts at least make it through.

[unJon]

I don't recall discussing this in these threads, but it very well may have been. It may be that Kvothe would find dealing with a Chandrian to be child's play at this point.

This is my doom upon you. Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace.

This is my doom upon you and all who follow you.

Selitos may have purposefully built in a "kill switch" for Haliax and the Chandrian. Simply using their name might incapacitate them. And that is what it means for their own names to be "turned" against them. It's literal in the way names have power, and not merely rhetorical in the sense that history will view them as evil.

In a very real way the Chandrian could be out in the world eradicating all instances of their names and killing people that use their real names in stories, because their names are . . . causing them pain or something similar. Selitos made their names haunt and hurt them.

This also would answer Kvothe's question:

The Chandrian obviously didnt kill everyone who gathered stories. Everyone knew a story or two about them, and every child at one point has sung the silly rhyme about their signs. What made my parents song so different?

This also fits with the Adem story and how it can only be told once a year and never in the same place, etc.

[unJon]

I think this bit from Denna kills the Ash is the Maer theory (not that the theory was likely anyway):

"The truth is," she said, as if confessing something. "I half suspect the song is for Alveron himself. Master Ash has implied hes had dealings with the Maer."

[all swedes are racist]

I haven't read all the previous threads, so if this has already been suggested and debunked, apologies. I just finished Wise Mans Fear and I came away with the impression that Caudicus was Master Ash.

Ill go back and try to re-read some parts to see if anything specific jumps out at me...

[all swedes are racist]

Could you give a bit more background on why you came away with that?

Well, the fact he travels quite a bit, and the Maer allows, I forget the exact quote, "his little experiments/projects(?)". Denna says Ash is known in the Maers court and Kvothe may have already met him. Also just a sense of him being a kind of sketchy person... The fact he seemed to catch on the Kvothes and the Maers suspicions so quickly, the odd late night meeting with Stapes (and someone else? My memories a bit hazy)... Though of course it could be nothing more than relatively mundane court politics.

I dunno, half of it was just kind of hunch or intuition. I've read the Bredon and/or Cinder theories, and I admit those seem to have a bit more weight, the Caudicus thing was just my first impression, and I guess I can't totally discount it.

Will re-read a few chapters and edit accordingly if needed...

ETA:

Master Ash is available to meet Denna again immediately after Caudicus flees The Maers tower. "...pretending he's meshed in some dark intrigue" she says of their secretive, midnight meeting. Not definitive either way, but still...