Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[mushroomshirt]

At best he insulted/embarrassed Ambrose. Ambrose tried to kill and poison Kvothe, tried to expel him and may even have had his ship sunk. I have a very hard time equating the two. It began when Ambrose was manhandling Fela and Kvothe intervened. That's what he does... he intervenes, invariably on the side of the innocent and oppressed. Ambrose has never done anything like that. He beats his whores. He harms women left and right. My tolerance for such behavior is very low. It pleases me that Kvothe's is as well.
 

 

I know this is an old thread, but I just finished reading these two books and really liked it.  I actually re-read the books and picked up on a few of the theories floating around (pats self on back).

 

But I didn't even consider that Ambrose may have been responsible for sinking Kvothe's ship.  Is there evidence for this that I missed or is this just speculation?

[Thunndarr]

His father's family is noted for piracy I believe.

 

Also, the sailor Kvothe sees a couple times, lastly hurrying onto the ship may have been carrying something Jakis could have tracked magically.

[jumbles]

Evidence for Ambrose sinking Kvothe's ship:

 

"In brief, there was a storm, piracy, treachery, and shipwreck, although not in that order" (WMFc52).

"I was sure he'd done it," Devi continued. "His father's barony is called the Pirate Isles" (WMFc143).

[mushroomshirt]

"I was sure he'd done it," Devi continued. "His father's barony is called the Pirate Isles" (WMFc143).

 

Right!  I remember that now that you mention it.

[C.T. Phipps]

My final observation is that Kvothe is not a very good person at all. He is arrogant, petty and vindictive, and that comes way before the fact that he is a mass murderer. For all of his faults, I still find him fascinating,

 

I find it weird how Kvothe does something similar to what the heroes of 900 other novels would do and gets called a mass-murderer for it. Aside from Superman and Batman, who wouldn't kill them?

[Howdyphillip]

 

 

I find it weird how Kvothe does something similar to what the heroes of 900 other novels would do and gets called a mass-murderer for it. Aside from Superman and Batman, who wouldn't kill them?

 

You have to look at this story in context. Remember that Kvothe is narrating this tale, and in his mind it is imperative to show justifications for his actions. The problem comes from a small slip in his tale that lets us know that his motivations were a bit different than how he concluded them to be in this particular escapade.

 

Kvothe ran across a group of people who he believed were Edema Ruh. He very quickly established that these people were masquerading as members. With no more evidence than this, he made the decision, and took action in killing every single member of this party. He poisoned the stew at this point in the story.

 

It was only after he already started carrying out the plan to murder everyone that he found out about the captured girls and the actions that brought this group to be acting as this traveling band. Essentially, he was willing, and started the process of killing a large group of people for the simple crime of saying that they were someone that they were not. This makes what his actions are murderous irregardless of what he found out afterwards.

[C.T. Phipps]

You have to look at this story in context. Remember that Kvothe is narrating this tale, and in his mind it is imperative to show justifications for his actions. The problem comes from a small slip in his tale that lets us know that his motivations were a bit different than how he concluded them to be in this particular escapade.

 

Kvothe ran across a group of people who he believed were Edema Ruh. He very quickly established that these people were masquerading as members. With no more evidence than this, he made the decision, and took action in killing every single member of this party. He poisoned the stew at this point in the story.

 

It was only after he already started carrying out the plan to murder everyone that he found out about the captured girls and the actions that brought this group to be acting as this traveling band. Essentially, he was willing, and started the process of killing a large group of people for the simple crime of saying that they were someone that they were not. This makes what his actions are murderous irregardless of what he found out afterwards.

 

Eh, by that point, Kvothe is already believing them to be bandits.

 

The element of keeping women prisoner is different.

 

But the crime is impersonating his people to commit acts of brigandry.

 

Which would fall on his people anyway.

 

Kvothe is there to find out what's happening to all the tax carts and so on.

[unJon]

 
Eh, by that point, Kvothe is already believing them to be bandits.
 
The element of keeping women prisoner is different.
 
But the crime is, essentially, impersonating his people to commit acts of brigandry.
 
Which would, naturally, fall on his people anyway.
 
Kvothe is, theoretically, there to find out what's happening to all the tax carts and so on.

Also they had real Ruh signs on the wagons and the group had a superficial knowledge of Ruh ways, so Kvothe concludes that this group of bandits killed the Ruh band they are masquerading as.

[Howdyphillip]

My point here is that there was no proof of any wrong doing by this group when Kvothe set out to murder them other than the fact that they were impersonating Edema Ruh. That is the only evidence he has when he decides to carry out an execution of an entire tribe of people. 

These people very well could have been refuges that came across the aftermath of a fight where a group of brigands and the Edema Ruh fought each other and wiped each other out. They could have decided to earn an income, they were going to use the carts, travel around, and put on shows for money. In this scenario, would the slaughter of the entire group be justified? 

 

 It doesn't matter what was revealed afterwords. What Kvothe did was absolutely murder. He killed an entire group of people based solely on the knowledge that they were impersonating his tribe.  

[C.T. Phipps]

My point here is that there was no proof of any wrong doing by this group when Kvothe set out to murder them other than the fact that they were impersonating Edema Ruh. That is the only evidence he has when he decides to carry out an execution of an entire tribe of people. 

These people very well could have been refuges that came across the aftermath of a fight where a group of brigands and the Edema Ruh fought each other and wiped each other out. They could have decided to earn an income, they were going to use the carts, travel around, and put on shows for money. In this scenario, would the slaughter of the entire group be justified? 

 

 It doesn't matter what was revealed afterwords. What Kvothe did was absolutely murder. He killed an entire group of people based solely on the knowledge that they were impersonating his tribe.  

 

Yeah, it's entirely possible but I believe Kvothe believes them to be the bandits in question. People make decisions based on improbable evidence all the time but what satisfies one person does not have to satisfy the legal system.

 

In real-life, people make mistakes based on faulty evidence and mistakes all the time but they're automatically murderers is a big assuption to make. Especially in a life or death situation.

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121010204522/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/a/a2/Just_Saiyan.jpg

[Howdyphillip]

 

Yeah, it's entirely possible but I believe Kvothe believes them to be the bandits in question. People make decisions based on improbable evidence all the time but what satisfies one person does not have to satisfy the legal system.

 

In real-life, people make mistakes based on faulty evidence and mistakes all the time but they're automatically murderers is a big assuption to make. Especially in a life or death situation.

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121010204522/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/a/a2/Just_Saiyan.jpg

I don't think it matters much at all what Kvothe believes he is doing. The fact of the matter is that he is willing to execute an entire group of people based solely on the probability that they are emulating another group of people. Someone brought up superheros upthread, but this action is far more in line with a well written super villain.  

 

I personally believe that the only reason the reader doesn't just absolutely despise Kvothe at this point in the story is because it is told from his perspective. I actually truly believe what is going on here is that Rothfus is telling us a story from the antagonist position and we will come to realize that by the end of the tale.

 

I'm going to call it now. I think Kvothe is "Masking Bad",

[C.T. Phipps]

To each their own.

I disagree with the premise Kvothe doesn't believe they're the bandits and that's not a major factor in his murder.

 

And if he just found a guy impersonating an Ruh, he would kill him.

[Proudfeet]

But do you at least agree that Kvothe is a major asshole? Also, the tax issue has already been dealt with. That was Cinder. As I remember, he was just trying to hurry up to try and meet Denna from his return.

[C.T. Phipps]

But do you at least agree that Kvothe is a major asshole? Also, the tax issue has already been dealt with. That was Cinder. As I remember, he was just trying to hurry up to try and meet Denna from his return.

 

I think Kvothe is an extremely entitled little snot, which is interesting given how much crap he's had to go through in his life. It's not uncommon, though, for extremely capable people who coast through their challenges to develop that kind of superiority complex (complete with persecution complex by their inferiors) and those flaws make Kvothe someone I like reading about.

 

At least, IMHO.

[Proudfeet]

 

I think Kvothe is an extremely entitled little snot, which is interesting given how much crap he's had to go through in his life. It's not uncommon, though, for extremely capable people who coast through their challenges to develop that kind of superiority complex (complete with persecution complex by their inferiors) and those flaws make Kvothe someone I like reading about.

 

At least, IMHO.

 

I think he was quite a bit worse than that. I always thought that was because of his age as present day Kvothe/Kote is much more mature.

 

Well, I have no beef with you as long as you aren't one of those that thinks Kvothe was a saint. I really can't stand how people can whitewash his actions. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

I personally believe that the only reason the reader doesn't just absolutely despise Kvothe at this point in the story is because it is told from his perspective. I actually truly believe what is going on here is that Rothfus is telling us a story from the antagonist position and we will come to realize that by the end of the tale.

 

It'd have to be a villain protagonist. There simply isn't room in the series for Kvothe to be an antagonist.

 

(Note that this doesn't change the accusation that Kvothe is a Gary Stu. He'd simply be a Gary Stu de Ville).

[C.T. Phipps]

Well, we know how the story ends. Kvothe does what he thinks is right and screws up everything so badly that it ends up putting him in a deep funk in an inn.

 

It'll probably end with Kvothe going out to start adventuring again, reknewed in purpose.

[jurble]

Kvothe being arrogant, selfish and dickish is intended by frame-Kvothe.   Frame-Kvothe lost the chick he was in love with and and lost his powers.   He wants his story be some sort of morality tale, because that's how he sees himself - as having reaped what he'd sown.

[Howdyphillip]

 

Yeah, it's entirely possible but I believe Kvothe believes them to be the bandits in question. People make decisions based on improbable evidence all the time but what satisfies one person does not have to satisfy the legal system.

 

In real-life, people make mistakes based on faulty evidence and mistakes all the time but they're automatically murderers is a big assuption to make. Especially in a life or death situation.

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121010204522/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/a/a2/Just_Saiyan.jpg

Yes, I come to the same conclusion that you do. I believe he thought they were bandits as well. My point is that it doesn't matter what he thought. He initiated the murder of an entire group of people based only on the fact that he thought they were impersonating another group of people. He very well could have been wrong in his thinking. He had no proof that the entire tribe need to be slaughtered. 

 

Speaking of that, Did every single person in the group need to be massacred? I'm thinking that with such a large group of people certainly every single one of them wasn't complicit in wrong doings. Isn't it more than likely that some of the people were being forced to comply with the rest of the group?  The thoughts that the entire tribe, or even that some of them didn't deserve death never crossed Kvothe's mind when he took action to slaughter them all.

 

I also think that the story was intentionally written this way by Rothfus. I think that upon a cursory read, we are supposed to think that his actions are perfectly justified, but on reflection think to ourselves that this situation may just be a little screwed up.

[unJon]

Yes, I come to the same conclusion that you do. I believe he thought they were bandits as well. My point is that it doesn't matter what he thought. He initiated the murder of an entire group of people based only on the fact that he thought they were impersonating another group of people. He very well could have been wrong in his thinking. He had no proof that the entire tribe need to be slaughtered. 
 
Speaking of that, Did every single person in the group need to be massacred? I'm thinking that with such a large group of people certainly every single one of them wasn't complicit in wrong doings. Isn't it more than likely that some of the people were being forced to comply with the rest of the group?  The thoughts that the entire tribe, or even that some of them didn't deserve death never crossed Kvothe's mind when he took action to slaughter them all.
 
I also think that the story was intentionally written this way by Rothfus. I think that upon a cursory read, we are supposed to think that his actions are perfectly justified, but on reflection think to ourselves that this situation may just be a little screwed up.

it's been awhile since I read the books but I have a different recollection than you. Kvothe puts the vomit drug in the stew based on, as you put it, "the fact that he thought they were impersonating another group of people."

But he hasn't taken any conclusive steps or passed the point of no return for killing all of them. That is a really important point and you are just ignoring it (or I am misremembering). He doesn't actually kill any of them until he has the evidence of the kidnapped girls.