R+L=J v 81

[Greymoon]

Dany's HoTU vision is Rhaeger, Elia and Aegon. SSM confirmed.

And I think the same, but maybe for different reasons. Jon doesn't "look" like a Targ, while F-Rh-Aegon "looks" like a Targ.

I know that about the HotU vision. I was just pointing out that at first Dany thinks she is seeing Viserys -- Until she realizes that the eye color doesn't match and that there's something basically off about the man she's seeing >> I take that to mean that Viserys looks quite a bit like Rhaegar, enough for Dany to be confused at first, but quickly realize that the man she is seeing can be no other that Rhaegar (because he looks so like Viserys, but different either way)

And I disagree about fAegon (or I'm not sure I understood your post). Book characters might easily make the amalgam between Valyrian/Targaryen looks, but we have nothing that tells us he looks like a Targaryen, or more precisely, like Rhaegar Targaryen. We know only that he has Valyrian features -- hair and eyes. And the only other description we have of fAegon is that he is lanky and handsome.

When speaking about “family looks” it seems likely that people (book characters) are simply picturing/referring or comparing looks with notorious members of a family -- or people they have known belonging to that family; or even a set of siblings they are acquainted with. It should encompass more than hair and eye color; it should be safe to assume that brown hair and grey eyes is not all that Jon shares with Ned.

In the North, the "Stark look" would IMO be defined by Ned (by his bannermen); not Ned's children, because Ned is the more prominent member; the better known Stark and the head of the family. So when Jon has the "Stark look" simply put, it means he looks like Ned. Others like the NW brothers, are more likely to compare Jon's looks to Benjen. In that case pointing out that Jon has the Stark look, is like saying Jon looks like Benjen. And Benjen and Ned sharing similar features because they are brothers should be expected.

However-

In the case of the "Targaryen look," comparing claimants and true Targaryens is difficult; since there is currently none in Westeros; it would seem that only the more prominent features stand out in memory; silver hair and purple/violet eyes.

These are however broad traits shared with most of those of Valyrian ancestry; and even the Daynes. IMO; it’s all a matter of who speaks; and how broad the term is used. Because in a stricter sense, the “Targaryen look” should refer to a current generation of Targaryens; or the last notorious members of the family. Dany in that respect, would seem to be the norm setter for "Targaryen looks."

[Chebyshov]

^and to add, what was Ned promising if Jon isn't her kid?

[Alia of the knife]

I speculate the reason why the Starks might have inbred are the same reasons the Targaryens did and it wasn't for looks, but for blood purity which may have increased their ability to warg.

At that time, they may have understood more about what they were, which also creates the double entendre of Rickards words, (given who his wife was), about some of his children having the "wolf's blood," which is very similar language to dragons blood.

[Alia of the knife]

So, I haven't been around this thread since it was still v40, perhaps? But something just occurred to me, and it doesn't seem relevant enough to open a different thread just for it. The most accepted theory about Rhaegar and his understanding of the prophecy is that he wanted to name all his children after Aegon I and his sisters, and so he thought the child he would have with Lyanna would be a girl, his Visenya. But if he truly wanted to emulate them, saw his children as the conquerors reborn or whatever, why did he call his oldest daughter Rhaenys? I mean, the right order would be, following his ancestors, Visenya > Aegon > Rhaenys, so why wouldn't he follow it?

And I must say, I'm surprised to see some old faces like Alia and Ygrain have stayed around here all these years :grouphug:

When my company was in trouble, and I didn't know if I would have a job, my doctor told me to find a healthy outlet to take my mind off my fears or I'd worry myself into an early grave, so I found Westeros and it has been great therapy.

And totally agree with your observation.

Hugs!!! :)

[Lady Octarina]

In any case, I'm inclined to believe that Jon has only "superficially" a Stark look. He has the hair; the eyes (though darker; I think we all agree this came from the Targaryen side? Aegon V and Rhaegar both had dark eyes). Jon's also got the longish face and the attitude, the cold gaze etc... but I picture him more like a good mix of both his parents and wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case (clue Aemon’s blindness.)

That said, since Rhaegar died some 16/17 years ago; I doubt anyone really remembers what he truly looked liked -- besides for his eyes and hair. And even then... memory is ever so fickle and tricky in real life... would anyone besides Ned/Howland (= people who know what to look for) actually be able to call the bluff?

(I think the Dany/Barristan faction would be the likeliest candidates. Dany didn't know Rhaegar of course, but she knew Viserys pretty well and in the HotU, she confused the one for the other at first >> I'm assuming Viserys and Rhaegar looked quite a bit alike)

If Jon looks more like Rhaegar than we are expecting; is it reasonable to assume that Jon's revelation would cast a big shadow/doubt on fAegon's identity? (having silver hair and purple eyes =/= from looking like Rhaegar Targaryen after all, else Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar might as well have been twins ;) )

:bowdown:

When my company was in trouble, and I didn't know if I would have a job, my doctor told me to find a healthy outlet to take my mind off my fears or I'd worry myself into an early grave, so I found Westeros and it has been great therapy.

And totally agree with your observation.

Hugs!!! :)

I understand where you're coming from. The forums used to be that for me, as well, but at some point it just got too stressful to discuss ASoIaF/GoT here. So I migrated to Tumblr lol

I'm not entirely sure what implications you can get from my observation, other than that Rhaegar didn't necessarily expect his third child to be a girl and might have chosen a male name for it just in case. So Jon could still have been called Aemon, or Daeron, in the small space of time between his birth and Eddard's arrival at the ToJ. :cool4:

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

I agree.

I always had the sense Martin was making a point about the two families as almost "book ends; "two distinctive dynasties, but similar families- right down to the incest. :ack:

Right after reading this I immediately thought, "Two households, both alike in dignity..."

[Alia of the knife]

Right after reading this I immediately thought, "Two households, both alike in dignity..."

Good call.

[Alia of the knife]

:bowdown:

I understand where you're coming from. The forums used to be that for me, as well, but at some point it just got too stressful to discuss ASoIaF/GoT here. So I migrated to Tumblr lol:

Don't let the "ruiners" steal your joy. Its an amazing opportunity to discuss a fabulous work and if others aren't "together" enough to handle the debate, its not your issue.

[Ygrain]

And the Pisswater Prince "looked" like a Targ. So?

You asked for a long face, and I gave you a Targ... who happens to be the long-faced son of a Targ and a Martell. No Stark blood for the long face.

By your logic, everyone with purple/violet eyes and blonde/silver hair is a Targ.

Which they of course are not. Ergo, just because someone "looks" like they come from a certain bloodline doesn't mean they did.

You should re-read what I wrote. The hair plus eyes PLUS long face make Stark look. That's what I asked you to show. Not just a long face on its own.

Furthermore, there is the matter of not just the look but family resemblance - Ned says that Jon's facec looks like a younger version of his own.

So Ned collected R's urn somehow then made his long journey through the Stormlands and Dorne, not knowing that he would find Lyanna having just given birth to R's child and that he should save the urn and burn Lyanna and put her in an urn as well? OK then.

I never said he was carrying the urn all along.

And I must say, I'm surprised to see some old faces like Alia and Ygrain have stayed around here all these years :grouphug:

Hello! :)

Sandor has grey eyes and dark brown hair. He must be a Stark.

See the point above.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I like to indulge in a little bit of "crackpot theory" from time to time, I refuse to rule out the possibility that Mance is Rhaegar, it cannot be fully ruled out by canon material.

Ygrain, you should indulge in this sort of philosophy more often, you're good at it :thumbsup: (and you're one of my role models on this board!)

[Ygrain]

I like to indulge in a little bit of "crackpot theory" from time to time, I refuse to rule out the possibility that Mance is Rhaegar, it cannot be fully ruled out by canon material.

Ygrain, you should indulge in this sort of philosophy more often, you're good at it :thumbsup: (and you're one of my role models on this board!)

Oh, am I? :-)

I sure love me some crackpotting, but the problem is that I never consider it as a valid theory. So, Your Grace, you are dead and cremated :P

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Oh, am I? :-)

I sure love me some crackpotting, but the problem is that I never consider it as a valid theory. So, Your Grace, you are dead and cremated :P

Yes you are :)

And you have to know that what is dead my never die, but rises again stronger and reborn as Mance "Rhaegar" :lol:

[Ygrain]

The ashes must have been poured with the blood of a dragon then :D

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

The ashes must have been poured with the blood of a dragon then :D

Never ever say never ever :cool4:

:cheers:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So, I haven't been around this thread since it was still v40, perhaps? But something just occurred to me, and it doesn't seem relevant enough to open a different thread just for it. The most accepted theory about Rhaegar and his understanding of the prophecy is that he wanted to name all his children after Aegon I and his sisters, and so he thought the child he would have with Lyanna would be a girl, his Visenya. But if he truly wanted to emulate them, saw his children as the conquerors reborn or whatever, why did he call his oldest daughter Rhaenys? I mean, the right order would be, following his ancestors, Visenya > Aegon > Rhaenys, so why wouldn't he follow it?

And I must say, I'm surprised to see some old faces like Alia and Ygrain have stayed around here all these years :grouphug:

My pet theory about this goes as follows:

Even back when Aegon I was still alive, there were already discussions about who should succeed him. Should it be Aenys, the eldest son? Or should it be Maegor, the younger son, who was born by the elder sister-wife? Amongst the Targaryens, it was regular that the eldest son married the eldest daughter. In this case, there could be no "war" about who should rule Dragonstone (or the seat they held before), because the two most powerfull claims were combined into one, and Lord and Lady ruled Dragonstone together. Their children would have a claim through both parents, so it couldn't be the case that a child of the eldest son would have to fight over the seat with a child of the eldest daughter, which could have happened if the daughter was older than the son.

In the original trio, the lines of the Dragon Kings came forth from the union between Aegon I and Rhaenys. Even though Aenys, their son, was older, there were those who wanted Maegor on the throne, because Visenya was older than Rhaenys. I believe that, in order to prevent this, Rhaegar made his own Rhaenys the elder daughter. She would have children with Aegon VI, and continue the line. Any children Aegon VI would have with his Visenya, would be born after the union between Aegon and Rhaenys resulted in a child (to be certain his plans aren't messed up).

That's my view on the whole thing :)

[ArabellaVidal]

Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Bran I, AGOT

Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well.

Eddard I, AGOT

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes.

Jon I, AGOT

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

Jon I, AGOT

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

Catelyn II, AGOT

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn.

Arya I, AGOT

Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too.

Arya I, AGOT

So this is what I've got from the first few AGOT chapters on Starks and Jon's looks. Might update with further finds later. Make of it what you will.

[ArabellaVidal]

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north.

Catelyn III, AGOT

Her (Arya's) long horsey face got the stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful.

Sansa I, AGOT

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa’s trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

Sansa I, AGOT

Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

Arya II, AGOT

A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful.

Catelyn I, AGOT

[AlliYoyo]

I'm getting lost.

Just because Jon has the Stark look, does not make him a Stark, is that what the current argument is? Taking his statements that he doesn't call himself a Stark because he wasn't trueborn (or legitimised) to mean that he does not have Stark blood?

If that's the case, then he can't be Lyanna's son then, because Lyanna was undoubtedly a Stark. So, instead of the equation being R+L=J, should it be R+x=J?

Does anyone else find that to be slightly ridiculous?

Also, if Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon having Tully looks means their not Starks, then Catelyn has some explaining to do....

Regardless of who Jon's Stark parent turns out to be, he is just as much Stark as Ned's trueborn children.

[FrozenFire3]

I understand where you're coming from. The forums used to be that for me, as well, but at some point it just got too stressful to discuss ASoIaF/GoT here. So I migrated to Tumblr lol

I'm not entirely sure what implications you can get from my observation, other than that Rhaegar didn't necessarily expect his third child to be a girl and might have chosen a male name for it just in case. So Jon could still have been called Aemon, or Daeron, in the small space of time between his birth and Eddard's arrival at the ToJ. :cool4:

Lady Octarina! Welcome back to the boards, mate :)

In regards to names and naming, I think Rhaegar named his first child Rhaenys to honour first his direct ancestor. So, if he was trying to re-create the original three heads, it was on a non-strictly chronological order lol And yes, I think your guess about Jon's Targ name is not off the mark. Aemon in particular is narratively powerful, both for the presence of Maester Aemon at the Wall and for the bittersweet resonance with Jon's childhood heroes and games ;)

[Greymoon]

I'm getting lost.

Just because Jon has the Stark look, does not make him a Stark, is that what the current argument is? Taking his statements that he doesn't call himself a Stark because he wasn't trueborn (or legitimised) to mean that he does not have Stark blood?

If that's the case, then he can't be Lyanna's son then, because Lyanna was undoubtedly a Stark. So, instead of the equation being R+L=J, should it be R+x=J?

Does anyone else find that to be slightly ridiculous?

Also, if Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon having Tully looks means their not Starks, then Catelyn has some explaining to do....

Regardless of who Jon's Stark parent turns out to be, he is just as much Stark as Ned's trueborn children.

I'm not certain I've understood all either, but yes, I believe the argument is that just because Jon has brown hair, grey eyes, and a long face -- doesn't mean he has Stark blood. And...unless I am mistaken, I understood the point being that Jon could be the real Aegon; son of Rhaegar + Elia.

Because Martells have dark eyes and brown hair and Aerys I had a long face...or...something...