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[Book Spoilers] EP406 Discussion


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Please add Toni Morrison's Beloved to your reading list. Being a product of your times does not absolve anyone of anything.

Morrison explains carefully in that book how even the 'best' slave master is a cruel human being. One of the great masterpieces of all time that book is.

Oh god, by that definition, everyone through history who doesn't share our values today was a cruel human being. It's ridiculous to make judgments like that without taking anything else into account.

I've read "Beloved", by the way. I've read quite a few books about the horrors of slavery as well as segregation- I'm not saying it was okay. But I'm not going to say that everyone who ever owned a slave was a 'cruel and terrible' human being, because that's in no way true. Slavery has been used by every culture in the world at one point or another as an economic tool - it's no different in Essos.

Edited by sj4iy
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Not sure if this is mentioned before, since I can't go through 42 pages right now but:



The way how Tywin treats Mace Tyrell during the small council scene contradicts with the scene earlier this season where he tells Cersei that they need the Tyrells.



Or is it just me? Fairly new here :D

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Not sure if this is mentioned before, since I can't go through 42 pages right now but:

The way how Tywin treats Mace Tyrell during the small council scene contradicts with the scene earlier this season where he tells Cersei that they need the Tyrells.

Or is it just me? Fairly new here :D

I agree. But I saw it as Tywin flexing his muscles and putting Mace in his place (second place in this case).

Rhyming not intended.

Edited by Fool of a Book
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Who else would be be travelling with, who would gladly kill the King's men?

Anybody?

There is simply no reason whatsoever to make a connection between a traveling companion of the Hound (if she made it into the report at all) and Arya Stark. The only "interaction" between them, so to speak, was him killing Mycah, and that would, if anything, weigh strongly against a connection between them. Arya Stark vanished more than a year before the Hound left the city. Westeros is the size of Latin America.

Could you supply a citation for that assertion?

Quoth the author:

In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

Edited by Colonel Green
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Anybody?

There is simply no reason whatsoever to make a connection between a traveling companion of the Hound (if she made it into the report at all) and Arya Stark. The only "interaction" between them, so to speak, was him killing Mycah, and that would, if anything, weigh strongly against a connection between them. Arya Stark vanished more than a year before the Hound left the city. Westeros is the size of Latin America.

And I say there is no reason that Varys would not get a full report, and no reaons that Varys would not speculate who the girl with the Hound was.

We can disagree, that's cool.

PS Westeros is way bigger than Latin America! GRRM says it's roughly the length of South America.

Edited by Fool of a Book
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Oh god, by that definition, everyone through history who doesn't share our values today was a cruel human being. It's ridiculous to make judgments like that without taking anything else into account.

I've read "Beloved", by the way. I've read quite a few books about the horrors of slavery as well as segregation- I'm not saying it was okay. But I'm not going to say that everyone who ever owned a slave was a 'cruel and terrible' human being, because that's in no way true. Slavery has been used by every culture in the world at one point or another as an economic tool - it's no different in Essos.

Exactly; every time the Greek's or Roman's invaded another land said subjects of the land became slaves. Slavery was not always based upon the color of skin or slave masters or cruelty or being beaten within an inch of your life.

Edited by Alia Atreides
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Oh god, by that definition, everyone through history who doesn't share our values today was a cruel human being. It's ridiculous to make judgments like that without taking anything else into account.

I've read "Beloved", by the way. I've read quite a few books about the horrors of slavery as well as segregation- I'm not saying it was okay. But I'm not going to say that everyone who ever owned a slave was a 'cruel and terrible' human being, because that's in no way true. Slavery has been used by every culture in the world at one point or another as an economic tool - it's no different in Essos.

Slavery, right now, today, is increasing all over the world. I do not argue for an ahistorical approach.

I simply recognize that to participate in slavery, no matter what your circumstances is to participate in cruelty.

And slavery was not based on color of skin till we got to the Americas, and by we, I mean Western civilization.

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Slavery, right now, today, is increasing all over the world. I do not argue for an ahistorical approach.

I simply recognize that to participate in slavery, no matter what your circumstances is to participate in cruelty.

And slavery was not based on color of skin till we got to the Americas, and by we, I mean Western civilization.

Thanks but I already know that but within the books we are not speaking of slavery on those terms etc.

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Thanks but I already know that but within the books we are not speaking of slavery on those terms etc.

How is the slavery in the books different from slavery anywhere else, anytime else? Slavery is unfortunately very common in human history and even pre-history (archeological evidence for it in pre-history)

I don't get your point. Really, I don't.

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It evolved into that but it certainly didn't start that way.

That is what I said. Slavery was not based on race till New World slavery arrived on the scene.

But slavery in Westeros has been abolished, or never used?

Slavery in this story is appears only in Essos, where the colored people live.

But even Dany was enslaved as a woman and Cersei certainly feels that she has been used as a broodmare, as a slave, in effect. I agree with her on that point. Women in Westeros are kept in line through the threat of rape just the way they are kept in line on Earth through the threat of rape.

Slavery and gender abuse clearly overlaps in the novels.

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How is the slavery in the books different from slavery anywhere else, anytime else? Slavery is unfortunately very common in human history and even pre-history (archeological evidence for it in pre-history)

I don't get your point. Really, I don't.

and I don't get your lecture at all. You started off suggesting Tori Morrion's Beloved which has not a thing to do with the slavery existing within Essos, etc. if it is pray tell me explain why people wanted to be slaves again? Again a different Caste system of slavery existed not a bunch of slave masters being cruel and beating people within an inch of their lives.

I know how unfortunate today's life as a slave is and what slavery meant for a person of color and that is the last thing I am saying on this its not even the topic of discussion. You want to discuss the life of a Slave through History and how it has evolved and changed from past to current meanings lets do it in proper topic thread. Thank you.

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Slavery, right now, today, is increasing all over the world. I do not argue for an ahistorical approach.

Yes, I am aware and I find it abhorrent with everything we know today...but most slavery happens in places of poverty and ignorance.

I simply recognize that to participate in slavery, no matter what your circumstances is to participate in cruelty.

And I don't. I don't expect people who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago in medieval societies where might makes right to know or care much about 'human rights'. It's ludicrous to expect them to be enlightened and then judge them based on that.

And slavery was not based on color of skin till we got to the Americas, and by we, I mean Western civilization.

I grew up in the South...i'm very aware of the horrors and atrocities that happened to those of color, and in my ancestry I have both slave owners and slaves, as well as people who fought on both sides of the Civil War. Knowing the history very thoroughly, I know that most slaves were treated like property and degraded. But you can't assert that EVERY PERSON in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WORLD who ever owned a slave was a terrible and cruel person. Most people are products of their times, just as we are. I'm sure 100 years from now, people will look back on us and try to paint us with the brush of 'ignorant savages', but that's not fair nor just.

All Dany had to do was inquire as to who was actually responsible for crucifying the children. That's ALL she had to do to be justified in her actions. She didn't. If she wants to punish the slave masters for any crimes they committed, then she should have given them trials. Instead, she enacted vengeance against the advice of the men who know more than she does about these matters, and ended up making a mistake that costs her much in the long run.

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*looks at the discussion*

Ewww. Fandom....*wags finger*

Hey...i was just thinking...do you think Ramsay's lady friend, Myranda will actually be plot important? I kinda like how shes unabashedly bad news. Goes to show even the ladies can be pretty gnarly.

I think Ramsay butchered her off screen, and that's how he got his splattered torso and bloodlust before finding the Ironborn.

...Sry, but no man I know would be all hyped and energetic right after boinking.

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*looks at the discussion*

Ewww. Fandom....*wags finger*

Hey...i was just thinking...do you think Ramsay's lady friend, Myranda will actually be plot important? I kinda like how shes unabashedly bad news. Goes to show even the ladies can be pretty gnarly.

I think Ramsay loves his doggies more.. she might become dinner for them eventually ;).

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That is what I said. Slavery was not based on race till New World slavery arrived on the scene.

My point was that it actually wasn't at first. There were many white and black indentured servants in the new world. And I don't want to get into a debate about who the first slave owner was in what would become the United States, but at least one of the first legally recognized slave owners was a black man who sued and won indefinite custody of another black man, despite testimony from two white indentured servants that the black servant had fulfilled his agreement.

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My point was that it actually wasn't at first. There were many white and black indentured servants in the new world. And I don't want to get into a debate about who the first slave owner was in what would become the United States, but at least one of the first legally recognized slave owners was a black man who sued and won indefinite custody of another black man, despite testimony from two white indentured servants that the black servant had fulfilled his agreement.

Maybe we should try to stay with the topic? This is killing the thread its not about that we can discuss it in General Chatter if it is that important to be debated.

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No, she's pretty much there for T&A, from what we've seen so far (and we've seen almost everything; ba-dum-tish!).

*obscene wanking motion*

I think Ramsay butchered her off screen, and that's how he got his splattered torso and bloodlust before finding the Ironborn.

...Sry, but no man I know would be all hyped and energetic right after boinking.

Nah, that was from all the guys he mauled.

I think Ramsay loves his doggies more.. she might become dinner for them eventually ;).

I dunno maybe she'll wind up as Fake Arya or something?

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