Question about the Iron Bank

[C.T. Phipps]

Bad comparison. The Braavosi do not live in Westeros and they have their own military. If Jews had their own city-state with a massive navy they wouldn't have been as vulnerable.

Arguably, a better example would be the Knights Templar. Sadly, they were up against France--the then-superpower of the Medieval European world.

[meeren]

Bad comparison. The Braavosi do not live in Westeros and they have their own military. If Jews had their own city-state with a massive navy they wouldn't have been as vulnerable.

They don't live in Westeros but they are pretty close for a good sacking. I have already stated that they should have their own standing army and this army should be really big to protect such a huge wealth. My objection is to having only the assasins as a defense against possible aggressors.

[Kingpin]

They don't live in Westeros but they are pretty close for a good sacking. I have already stated that they should have their own standing army and this army should be really big to protect such a huge wealth. My objection is to having only the assasins as a defense against possible aggressors.

Like in ninja assassin the movie, a ninja could clear a room if he was the attacker and noone knew about it.

But when their stronghold was known, a small army force with light weapons and rifles destroyed them.

The iron bank must have a standing army to protect them, and a strong one too. The city of Braavos and close allies(?) most likely.

[Mad Monkey]

They don't live in Westeros but they are pretty close for a good sacking. I have already stated that they should have their own standing army and this army should be really big to protect such a huge wealth. My objection is to having only the assasins as a defense against possible aggressors.

What makes you think that Braavos would allow an army to land on its shores and sack its economic engines? They have a large and powerful navy, perhaps the best in the world; Braavos is the most powerful of the Free Cities.

[Envie]

What makes you think that Braavos would allow an army to land on its shores and sack its economic engines? They have a large and powerful navy, perhaps the best in the world; Braavos is the most powerful of the Free Cities.

This.

I always suspected that Braavos -was- the Iron Bank in entirety. They control the entire city and every ship and Bravosi in it is at their disposal. This is not to be messed with.

[SynthFG]

They don't live in Westeros but they are pretty close for a good sacking. I have already stated that they should have their own standing army and this army should be really big to protect such a huge wealth. My objection is to having only the assasins as a defense against possible aggressors.

Look at the description of Bravos

It's basically Venice, a city that remained unconquered until Napoleon and his cannon showed up with better defences

Assuming you get past the Bravosi navy you then cannot attack through the swamps but have to go into the lagoon and land your troops in the Harbor

To do this you have to sail through / under the rather decorative fort known as the Titan, whilst they drop all kinds of burning crap onto your decks

Bravos is essentially impervious to any kind of conventional external attack, so you'd need to either invent gunpowder and cannon or use a dragon,

and given the description of the climate and environment (very damp) I'm not sure even a Dragon would guarantee victory

[meeren]

What makes you think that Braavos would allow an army to land on its shores and sack its economic engines? They have a large and powerful navy, perhaps the best in the world; Braavos is the most powerful of the Free Cities.

Well, i don't really have much knowledge about naval and land forces of IB and its Bravoosi allies. I just they they need a standing army and assasins wouldn't be enough to save them.

So, let's assume that Stannis with his 1500 men decided to sack IB and leave immediately with whatever they could take, do you think IB have enough forces around to stop such a raid ? I don't mean anything, i just want to know miltary power of IB.

[Kingpin]

Well, i don't really have much knowledge about naval and land forces of IB and its Bravoosi allies. I just they they need a standing army and assasins wouldn't be enough to save them.

So, let's assume that Stannis with his 1500 men decided to sack IB and leave immediately with whatever they could take, do you think IB have enough forces around to stop such a raid ? I don't mean anything, i just want to know miltary power of IB.

I have the impression that if Stannis created any sort of serious incident while talking to the IB representatives, he'd end up like Ser Amory Lorch in seconds, his escort the same.

Likewise, I don't think they would allow 1500 men if they couldn't handle every possible situation.

These guys are not amateurs.

['96Buck]

They don't live in Westeros but they are pretty close for a good sacking. I have already stated that they should have their own standing army and this army should be really big to protect such a huge wealth. My objection is to having only the assasins as a defense against possible aggressors.

Braavos does have a military, it's a city-state. But the comparison to Jewish moneylenders is flawed in a more fundamental fashion....Westerosi are not barred by the Seven from lending at interest, nor does the Church of the Seven set the bounds of civil behavior in the same way in which the Roman Catholic Church did in the real Middle Ages. Jewish moneylenders lived within the zone of political control of Christendom, without being Christian, while holding a monopoly on capital. Westeros is not primarily a polity of the Seven, Braavosi are not in Westeros, and many others also lend.

['96Buck]

I have the impression that if Stannis created any sort of serious incident while talking to the IB representatives, he'd end up like Ser Amory Lorch in seconds, his escort the same.

Likewise, I don't think they would allow 1500 men if they couldn't handle every possible situation.

These guys are not amateurs.

1500 men couldn't have passed the Titan in the first place. One small ship came through the passage.

['96Buck]

Arguably, a better example would be the Knights Templar. Sadly, they were up against France--the then-superpower of the Medieval European world.

In that case, the lenders were co-religionists, and as you note, still cohabitors, with their borrowers. The KT had a massive network of land and owned assets across Christendom...very dissimilar from the IB/Braavos. That network created vulnerabilities that don't correlate to the situation here.

[The weirwood knight]

Why wouldn't the combined lords of Westeros just get together and sack them?

Because they can't.

Bravoos, the seat of the Iron Bank has never been conquered, has a huge navy and an effective assasination guild.

Noone ever dared to attack the city.

If you can't destroy the bank you can only default on your payments.

In that case the bank would't just count their losses and move on, they will fund your enemies.

Most lords wouldn't risk that, besides they wouldn't be able to apply for new loans, which can be disastrous in times of war.

Westerosi Lords like many countries today are also dependent on loans to cover necessary costs for building projects, army recruitment etc.

Without that they couldn't protect nor govern their lands.

It takes too much time to collect enough tax revenue to pay for such expenses, so you are required to borrow and spent money at once and pay it back over time.

[avernite]

I wonder, since Braavos is basically Venice, if we'll see a reprise of the 4th crusade at some point.

That is, essentially, the epitome of 'do not piss off people with a lot of money and a navy' (even if the Venetians may not have had quite as much cause for their nastiness as the Iron Bank may get - depending on how things proceed), where the Knights Templar are the epitome of 'money alone doesn't kill a man'.

[boojam]

Banking is, of course , ancient in the Western world.

Greece and Rome had , tho in those times the State was sometimes the bank.

Merchant banking rose with the decline in Catholic church power, and then became independent of both church and state.

Some say modern banking is still too independent of the state, to wit the crash of 2008.

Braavos , as a free city, has the IB independent of both church and state, indeed IF! the 'church' has any real significance in Braavos! In fact the State , Sealord of Braavos, may be a puppet of the Iron Bank.

[The Fenris Wolf]

Plus the Iron Bank isn't a big vault with all the money in it. Just like today's banks, most of their money won't actually be at the bank. So invading them would do little more to them than a bank robber today would be able to do by raiding wells fargo headquarters. Sure someone might be able to get some cash from them, but they would be looking over their shoulder for the rest of their short days, especially with assassins hot on their trail.

Ha, this is a really good point. For some reason I had simplified them to that extent. I envisioned them as a GRRM-land version of the goblins in the Harry Potter books. I guess there's nothing in Martin's writing to suggest that they were anything like that.

[Pericles]

From my perspective as a student of history, Braavos strike me as a Coperate State, similar to East India Company India. Yes, it's a country, with laws, a military, etc, but it's also a company, and the two are interlinked. I suspect that if the Iron Bank got really pissed off, the Braavosi would do what the British did in the days of the Empire when faced with non cooperative debt payers.

[The Fenris Wolf]

Also, why would the Lords of Westeros unite against the Iron Bank?

Well this was my initial point. Everyone is scared $hitless of them, that is a perfectly good reason to unite against them. In fact there are a lot of historical cases of kingdoms doing exactly that: growing weary of constant threat from a distant rival, then uniting to take them down.

It seems to me that you may be able to cow some minor lords certainly. But families like the Lannisters, the Targaryans, or the Starks do not get to be that way by suffering threats for long. And if you back a nation into a corner and make it so that they have no perceivable alternative, they will eventually attack. Even if they don't see much chance of winning. IRL consider the Empire of Japan in WWII, or perhaps Vlad III's war against the invading Turks. Neither of these are perfect examples I understand, but I hope at least that they show what I mean.

It was just something I was curious about. I can definitely see what most of you are saying though, that essentially Braavos IS the IB, and to sack the most powerful of the Free Cities would be almost impossible.

Also now that I'm thinking about it, some of the other Free Cities could likely be persuaded to assist Braavos and the IB in their defense, if for no other reason than to prevent Westeros from gaining any influence in the region...very interesting!

[Impish]

Assassins are not enough, they can't defeat an army with the assassins

Tell that to Renly. ;) His army was effectively "defeated" with a single assassination.

[Mad Monkey]

Well, i don't really have much knowledge about naval and land forces of IB and its Bravoosi allies. I just they they need a standing army and assasins wouldn't be enough to save them.

So, let's assume that Stannis with his 1500 men decided to sack IB and leave immediately with whatever they could take, do you think IB have enough forces around to stop such a raid ? I don't mean anything, i just want to know miltary power of IB.

The mighty Arsenal of Braavos has the power to produce one war galley per day, which is a phenomenal pace. This alone makes them a preeminent naval power in that time period; the only people that could rival them (in theory) is the Iron Fleet which can't possibly have nearly the number of sailors and ships. Victarion's Iron Fleet only had 100 ships in ADWD by contrast, and that was considered a powerful force (and it was, of course).

I think you're really underestimating how hard it would be to attack the Iron Bank. Forget about the Faceless Men for a second -- the only way you could get to Braavos is by ship. There's no way the Arsenal would allow an invading Westerosi navy to land on its shores for the purpose of sacking the Iron Bank. Any invader would be destroyed long before ground troops even come into play.

It would be like if a foreign country invaded New York City to sack Wall Street. It wouldn't even matter what kind of personal security individual investment firms and banks on Wall Street had set up; the invaders would have to tackle the United States army, air force, and navy first solely because Wall Street is in the United States. Similarly, you can't just sack the Iron Bank without defeating Braavos militarily first, and the books make it clear that Braavos is by far the strongest of the Free Cities. There's no way that Stannis could take Braavos with 1500 or even 4000 men; maybe if Westeros put together a royal army they could do it, but it would be costly and as Fenris points out the other Free Cities may jump in to help.

It seems to me that you may be able to cow some minor lords certainly. But families like the Lannisters, the Targaryans, or the Starks do not get to be that way by suffering threats for long. And if you back a nation into a corner and make it so that they have no perceivable alternative, they will eventually attack. Even if they don't see much chance of winning. IRL consider the Empire of Japan in WWII, or perhaps Vlad III's war against the invading Turks. Neither of these are perfect examples I understand, but I hope at least that they show what I mean.

You're right, but I don't think that the Iron Bank pushes that hard. They seem fairly reasonable in the books at least; they allow extended repayment terms, they don't call in their loans in full even after their envoys are treated disrespectfully, and they are even willing to do business with relatively poor institutions, giving them a lot of money up front and doing personal favors for debtors above and beyond. They only play hardball when the debtor plays hardball first; other than they, they seem very accommodating and reasonable, as long as you are still making payments.

Also now that I'm thinking about it, some of the other Free Cities could likely be persuaded to assist Braavos and the IB in their defense, if for no other reason than to prevent Westeros from gaining any influence in the region...very interesting!

That's also a good point. Braavos and Pentos already have a strong political alliance.

[boojam]

Well this was my initial point. Everyone is scared $hitless of them, that is a perfectly good reason to unite against them. In fact there are a lot of historical cases of kingdoms doing exactly that: growing weary of constant threat from a distant rival, then uniting to take them down.

That's why it's so odd that the House of Black and White and The Iron Bank of Braavos are in Braavos!

So what happens even if you are the strongest realm in Westeros, you declare war on the IB and weeks later, the King and all his high born vassals are gone?!

Who leads the army, who would want to lead the army?

Yeah I would scared $hitless.