Heresy 116

[Harlan]

If the women are in power and can just replace Craster by one of his sons, then why do they put up with the abuse? They could simply replace him when needed.

Another question is what would they do until her babies grew enough to reproduce, who would they sacrifice? If they need to sacrifice (or belive they do) what would they do in the meantime?

And if they only keep one backup, what would they do if that child die? Get another man? If so then why add to the incest by reproducing with their sons?

Well, if the women are in power, then they probably aren't being abused. I could be wrong, but I don't think that, in the books, it is ever explicit that craster beats his wives. We observe craster threaten his wives, but no abuse is ever actually seen to take place.

Sure. For both show and books.

In the case of the books, we're told the Others first came in the Long Night, thousands of years before Craster was born.

In the case of the show, if you believe the guy who did the transforming was an Other, and also the Night's King, and that he's the same historical figure as the Night's King in the books, he certainly can't have been Craster's son. He would have to have been an adult male and LC of the Watch who somehow became an immortal Other -- no babies involved there at all and certainly none from Craster.

Spot on.

The trouble with the forums is that if D is super-entrenched and beloved, E could be the greatest theory on Earth and still people would call it weak and it would get shot down. I've seen it happen over and over.

And if E's author doesn't spend night and day defending his theory against all objections, people will assume it's broken and use phrases like "this is the nail in the coffin" and dismiss it. Worse, the bigger the ideas in a theory, the more work will be required in the defense.

If "by the trouble with the forums" you mean "the trouble with humans" then you are correct. Dogmatic thinking is a problem wherever humans converse and is not unique to any forums. Given that our discussion is still about craster's sons=popsicles (which doesn't mean all popsicles are craster's sons) I feel that i once again have to point out that you, or anyone else, has yet to offer a competing thoery E that explains how a popsicle is mad. In the absence of better alternatives, you must accept that the best theory currently available is Craster's sons=popsicles. If you have an alternative theory, please present.....

[wolfmaid7]

Well, if the women are in power, then they probably aren't being abused. I could be wrong, but I don't think that, in the books, it is ever explicit that craster beats his wives. We observe craster threaten his wives, but no abuse is ever actually seen to take place.

If "by the trouble with the forums" you mean "the trouble with humans" then you are correct. Dogmatic thinking is a problem wherever humans converse and is not unique to any forums. Given that our discussion is still about craster's sons=popsicles (which doesn't mean all popsicles are craster's sons) I feel that i once again have to point out that you, or anyone else, has yet to offer a competing thoery E that explains how a popsicle is mad. In the absence of better alternatives, you must accept that the best theory currently available is Craster's sons=popsicles. If you have an alternative theory, please present.....

Agreed,if i get what you are saying,he actually beats one of the little girls,but given Nella's speech about beating the lying out of Gilly when she was young,i say that is a fixture at the Keep carried out by the older women.He threstens to beat them in the ear shot of the NW,but i think that is a show.

The only thing Craster does is eat,get drunk and fall asleep,he's the one dependent on them.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@ Snowfyre Chorus.

All sorts of interesting info on the Hawthorn tree in the Wikipedia page. A couple of things I noted, apparently horticulturists use a Hawthorn tree to graft with a Pear tree. And Danaerys just happens to have a Pear tree out on her balcony in Mereen. Snowfyre, didn't you say that Jon may be symbolized by the Pome fruit from the Hawthorn? If that's not symbolic of a union, I don't know what is.

In addition there has been folklore attributing both the Hawthorne tree and the blackberry bush as being the source of Jesus' crown of thorns. I would note that the blackberry bush comes up again in the Sworn Sword as the plants growing on the graves of Lord Osgrey's sons (the sons who died fighting for Daemon Blackfyre). Interestingly enough, Illyrio toasts Tyrion with cloyingly sweet blackberry wine before he sends him off to meet with faegon. So it's interesting that we have blackberry bushes in Winterfell's godswood.

Finally, Croatian folklore has the Hawthorn tree as the wood to use for making stakes to slay vampires. And considering the amount of Dracula imagery with Bloodraven, the Reeds and Bran's trip up to the Wall, I wonder if that may be significant as well.

Yes - the grafting connection here is very, very interesting, though the specific connection I liked best for Jon was the Bael fruit. But Hawthorn is a tree closely connected with the fae folk, and is also notable for its compatibility as rootstock for fruit trees.

@FFR - If you haven't already read Puck of Pook's Hill, it's definitely worth a look. I had not read it before (and am not yet finished) - but already I see many, many connections with Martin's work!

[addicted to snow]

Aux contraire, it was in an episode penned by GRRM in which Sam spoke of wights being "touched" by white walkers - read it in a book apparently

Aux contraire, there are multiple meanings for the word "touched"… have we ever actually seen an Other touch a Wight? I know that a physical touch with a fingernail was not required to raise Thisels's body as a wight...

[Varamyra Stark]

@Snowfyre. I can't remember if you had previously mentioned this in your grafting theory but considering Sansa is a type of apple, where does she fit in to your theory? Have you made a separate thread yet ?

[Black Crow]

Aux contraire, there are multiple meanings for the word "touched"… have we ever actually seen an Other touch a Wight? I know that a physical touch with a fingernail was not required to raise Thisels's body as a wight...

Oh indeed, I was merely contradicting JNR's statement that GRRM had nothing to do with it.

[Amoracchius]

In the case of the books, we're told the Others first came in the Long Night, thousands of years before Craster was born.

In the case of the show, if you believe the guy who did the transforming was an Other, and also the Night's King, and that he's the same historical figure as the Night's King in the books, he certainly can't have been Craster's son. He would have to have been an adult male and LC of the Watch who somehow became an immortal Other -- no babies involved there at all and certainly none from Craster.

I don't think anyone has proposed that all Others that ever lived (if that's the right word) began as Craster's sons. I think the point is that Others can be created from human life and that certain people, like Craster, "bear a heavy curse" and deal with it by offering "gifts to the gods." Whether it has to be an infant male and whether that is the only way that an Other comes into existence are questions that haven't been addressed, but that could explain the Other-like appearance of the Night's King on the show (I am not actually convinced yet that 13 figures in that scene were in fact the same type of being as the Other than collect the baby; they looked a little more human and a little less tree-like, to me at least).

[Black Crow]

Quite, and as I say that then leads on to the question that if they are being created on demand, who is using them.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@Snowfyre. I can't remember if you had previously mentioned this in your grafting theory but considering Sansa is a type of apple, where does she fit in to your theory? Have you made a separate thread yet ?

I haven't posted a separate thread yet - though I plan to eventually. There's just so much to include! But Sansa definitely fits. (Arya is the one that's still hard for me to place...) The Sansa is a "well-bred" apple - a new breed (1986) of early-maturing apple that resulted from a "Joint Enhancement Program" between growers in Japan and New Zealand. "Joint Enhancement Program" - has started to sound a lot like "southron ambitions" to my ear! :)

The US Patent for the "Sansa" indicates a "moderate[ly] precocious" tree, "bearing very well," with "almost no occurence of Heart rot (Core rot)." The apple itself is described as having "a good sweet-acid balance and an excellent dessert quality..."

[Melifeather]

I haven't posted a separate thread yet - though I plan to eventually. There's just so much to include! But Sansa definitely fits. (Arya is the one that's still hard for me to place...) The Sansa is a "well-bred" apple - a new breed (1986) of early-maturing apple that resulted from a "Joint Enhancement Program" between growers in Japan and New Zealand. "Joint Enhancement Program" - has started to sound a lot like "southron ambitions" to my ear! :)

The US Patent for the "Sansa" indicates a "moderate[ly] precocious" tree, "bearing very well," with "almost no occurence of Heart rot (Core rot)." The apple itself is described as having "a good sweet-acid balance and an excellent dessert quality..."

Well...Arya is, after all, "no one".

[redriver]

Sure. For both show and books.

In the case of the books, we're told the Others first came in the Long Night, thousands of years before Craster was born.

In the case of the show, if you believe the guy who did the transforming was an Other, and also the Night's King, and that he's the same historical figure as the Night's King in the books, he certainly can't have been Craster's son. He would have to have been an adult male and LC of the Watch who somehow became an immortal Other -- no babies involved there at all and certainly none from Craster.

Spot on.

The trouble with the forums is that if D is super-entrenched and beloved, E could be the greatest theory on Earth and still people would call it weak and it would get shot down. I've seen it happen over and over.

And if E's author doesn't spend night and day defending his theory against all objections, people will assume it's broken and use phrases like "this is the nail in the coffin" and dismiss it. Worse, the bigger the ideas in a theory, the more work will be required in the defense.

Compare to the difficulty evolution -- a stupendously huge idea -- has had establishing itself for 150 years, just because people don't like it on an emotional level. I think about half of all Americans believe in evolution even now. Or look at continental drift, which scientists almost all dismissed for half a century until they realized it was correct and renamed it plate tectonics.

So no new theory should ever be presented or published because the possibility exits that it might be challenged by someone?You're unlikely to be related to Charles Darwin are you?

[Jojen]

If that's the way you see it, then shouldn't the Long Night be the Doom of Ice? The Last Hero obtained survival by gaining "guest right". The full intent was to rid Westeros of the pesky humans, but one was able to call olly olly oxen free...

If we turn to the Fire side of this for a moment we have the Mad Queen and her Amazing Dragons, we have Mystic Mel and her powders, potions and shadow babies, and there are probably others there too crawling around in the woodwork before emerging in their true colours. But what of Ice? Is that to remain an anonymous threat or are we once again going to find the real protagonists much closer to home?

I don't have an ounce of evidence to back me up, but is it possible that Mance=PTWP, or at least he believes he is, and that his interpretation of the myth of AA is very different than what is commonly believed south of the Wall? Granted, he's given us no indication that he or anyone else thinks so, but if he is then maybe that's really why Mel didn't burn him, because he convinced her that it could just maybe be true. Since they know Jon doesn't trust them they give him another, more plausible reason for keeping him alive.

I'll go even further and suggest, admittedly again without any real evidence, that NK=AA. I know the timelines don't match up, but when we're talking so many thousands of years ago, exact details become hazy. On the surface there seems no way that NK and AA be one and the same, but if you consider (1) how, in our world, cultures liberally borrow myths from one another and rework them to fit their own purposes; (2) how history is written by the victors (NK's crimes could have been exaggerated); and (3) Lightbringer is a metaphor for (secret) knowledge or, even, Truth, and Nissa Nissa is the Heart of Winter; therefore what both NK was up to and what Bran sees is the discovery of the truth and/or and conclusion to the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Jojen]

Well...Arya is, after all, "no one".

I'm glad you brought that up. It's tangential and perhaps already discussed to death, but I think there's an intriguing parallel between the Faceless Men and skinchangers. The Faceless Men believe all men must die. The first job they give new members is to kill their own ego. If they can do that, they are given a second life through the faces of the dead in the Temple vaults. There are perhaps thousands of second lives awaiting them there.

As far as I know, the Kindly Man hasn't warned Arya about the danger of wearing another's face for too long, but I wonder if any truly have forgotten who they were before and remaining living out their second life? Although I suppose someone would eventually come looking for them if for no other reason than to get the face back.

[OnlyOne]

Crazy priestess Mel is burning people alive for her God.

WW's have been being created for a very long time. Jon is what? The 998th Commander.

I don't care for Mel's God or the WW as gods.

Perhaps both are equally evil.

Depends on whether you think the ends justify the means.

[redriver]

I'm glad you brought that up. It's tangential and perhaps already discussed to death, but I think there's an intriguing parallel between the Faceless Men and skinchangers. The Faceless Men believe all men must die. The first job they give new members is to kill their own ego. If they can do that, they are given a second life through the faces of the dead in the Temple vaults. There are perhaps thousands of second lives awaiting them there.

As far as I know, the Kindly Man hasn't warned Arya about the danger of wearing another's face for too long, but I wonder if any truly have forgotten who they were before and remaining living out their second life? Although I suppose someone would eventually come looking for them if for no other reason than to get the face back.

"Honey, I lost my face"

"Just as well,I never really liked it."

[wolfmaid7]

Well...Arya is, after all, "no one".

On the Stark family tree i noticed there was an "Arya Flint" could it be a vauge allusion to Arya doing a "Dany Flint"?

Edit: For those who haven't had a chance to look at the World book http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

[Melifeather]

On the Stark family tree i noticed there was an "Arya Flint" could it be a vauge allusion to Arya doing a "Dany Flint"?

Edit: For those who haven't had a chance to look at the World book http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

I can't wait! It looks beautiful!

[wolfmaid7]

I can't wait! It looks beautiful!

Notice "Lady Stark" was actually "A Stark" .....The plot thickens,i guess the Targs wern't the only ones who enjoyed dipping in the family pool. :devil:

I can't wait myself,it wil be a nice read.

[Adam de Felden]

So no new theory should ever be presented or published because the possibility exits that it might be challenged by someone?You're unlikely to be related to Charles Darwin are you?

I think the point was more that if it isn't an orthodoxical theory it is ignored and belittled rather than being challenged or discussed.

[Adam de Felden]

Notice "Lady Stark" was actually "A Stark" .....The plot thickens,i guess the Targs wern't the only ones who enjoyed dipping in the family pool. :devil:

I can't wait myself,it wil be a nice read.

Agreed, this is the book I am most waiting for this year.

Does the stark marriage clash as inbreeding though? I thought it was nothing more than the typical intermarriage between family branches that would result from regional dynasties. Look at the percies and nevilles of English history,, intermarriage but still feud, of the main royal line, intermarriage, black prince for example, but hardly incest.