Heresy 116

[Frey family reunion]

If Mance does something like that I will eat the internet live on the internet..

I always find that the internet could use a little more salt.

[wolfmaid7]

Imagine we didn't get the mystery of the shadow babies, introduced and then resolved in A Clash of Kings because George chose not to include Davos' perspective in order to preserve the mystery. The debate would still be raging, and it's likely you would find the explanation "Melisandre and Stannis had sex" as insufficiently satisfying to be plausible. It wouldn't have enough layers or depth, in your eyes, to fit with the rest of the story.

So up north, the others use freshly born babies to create white walkers. Down south, Melisandre uses freshly ejaculated semen to create shadow babies. I'd say both are pretty equally mundane explanations consistent with one another. Life is being used to create supernatural servants, slaves perhaps, whether it is ice or fire, the two are clearly close cousins in principle.

I completely missed the neverborn thing, can someone supply me with a link, please? thanks.

I feel like Mance is not allied with humanity, and Jon made one of the classic Ned Stark errors of compassion in letting the wildlings through the wall (which means the wildlings actually win the battle after being defeated on the field because their goals were accomplished with Jon being all Ned Stark, and none of the Watch's goals were accomplished Other than a rationalization about wights, which shouldn't worry the watch since wights probably can't go over a 700 foot wall of ice that quite effectively stops them). I trust Mance less than I trust Euron.

Except in the case of Mel we can follow the line........She had sex with Stannis( we know that ) came full term in a matter of what days! and gave birth to a shadow - a black shadow-it looked like Stannis.

There is no clear line like this when it comes to the WWs,their are serious gaps and inconsistencies...

Sheep,incorrect amount of babies per WWs,fuzzy eye witness accounts and weird conversations.

[Eira Seren]

Why does any author utilize misdirection in order to create twists/turns? those passages are in there to mislead the majority of readers in order shock the reader at a later point… Ultimately's GRRM's goal with the passages is to make his books a more interesting read & sell more books.

--

Mormont never says that the sacrifices are collected by the Others… If he thought Craster was swelling the ranks of the Others, then he would kill Craster.

--

All Jon & Sam's passages you mention seem to prove is that Jon is a poor interrogator (Which by itself means that GRRM is sneaking something by You, the audience - otherwise Jon would have asked smarter questions), and that Craster's Wives are convinced that their Sons are collected by the Others… This only serves as proof of Craster's Wives' beliefs - nothing more...

Surely Craster has had more than 6 sons, right.? This part of your argument works against you as well...

The books are absolutely overflowing with mysteries, this is what makes the difference between GRRM and other writers… It can be viewed as a red-herring, Temporarily shielding the true identity of the Others & their relationship with the Starks by satisfying the imagination of the average reader.

On the subject of how GRRM likes to leave us little mysteries. . . you note that he likes to "shield the true identity. . . by satisfying the imagination of the average reader" and sets them up for a big surprise later. Is he just doing this especially in order to sell more books? Sure, every decent author knows their audience and wants to sell books. Yet, he isn't churning out one pot-boiler after another, he's actually taking some time. He (like a poet) obsesses over not just chapters (writing several versions of them), but sentences and likely individual words.

Call me an idealist, I just think there's something too neat about the idea that GRRM is always deliberately creating red herrings, as opposed to telling a more nuanced and rich story, one where (like in reality) perspectives are layered and sometimes incomplete, and "The Truth" isn't black and white, but made up of shades of in-between. I think he's misdirecting sometimes (probably most in responses to direct questions that he's not ready to answer), and at others leaving his options open to develop things later on. And leaving things more open (and as a result, less predictably formulaic) for the readers. He likes the readers to have to think about it or take it at face value as they prefer. And, as you point out, "this is the difference between GRRM and other writers. . ."

Well I'm going to repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread (probably never a good idea to post on page 21 if you want anybody to respond).

1. In addition to the above questions by BC, why do the White Walkers appear the way they do? Why are they "dressed" in armor and why do they carry swords? If they are an ancient race that predates the First Man why do they appear like a Southron knight?

2. I've tried to bring this up before but no one really seems to want to revisit the topic. But based on Sam's observations when Puddles dissolved, they really do seem to have the properties of solid nitrogen and liquid oxygen. Basically they appear to be super frozen air.

3. If Craster's sons are being "transformed" into White Walkers, how does this transformation process take place? Is the flesh, blood and bone of these human children actually turned into this material of the White Walkers? I contend that it is more likely that the souls or animus of the children are being place within the "bodies" of these White Walkers to give them life.

4. In summary, I think that it is likely that the White Walkers are created magically, probably using frozen air and animated by the animus of Craster's children, which leads them to being identified as Craster's sons. Basically GRRM is giving us Golems made of frozen air.

I bring up Golem because one of the most famous Golems in folklore is the Golem of Prague. A Jewish folk tale where a Golem was created to protect the village from anti-Semitism. One interesting aspects of the Golem is that he could turn invisible and summon the spirits of the dead. Which is exactly what GRRM seems to have his White Walkers do as well.

3. Agree!

2. and 4. This could work for me, I am just not science enough to grasp the difference between ice and frozen air. But the concept works for me.

One again its worth taking a short step back and looking a little sideways at what may really be happening here.

We've noted in times past that in numbers and behaviour the white walkers are more akin to rangers than to an invading army and its worth looking at this again.

With one exception there have been no battles, but instead they have picked off individuals and small groups, inspiring a terror far greater than their actual numbers warrant. In the first instance, obviously enough, that terror has enabled Mance Rayder to assemble all of the known wildlings under his banner - with the notable exception of Craster. Then once, but only once, Craster got his host moving they hung around his flanks and rear picking off stragglers and keeping them moving far more effectively that Mance or Tormund might have done.

The one battle is significant.

Mance and his trek are coming down the Milkwater. Ahead of them at the Fist of the First Men lies Lord Mormont and a workable plan to harry and cut them to pieces. Instead quite literally just hours before the Nights Watch saddle up, they are attacked and effectively destroyed by the blue-eyed lot. Once again stragglers are picked off afterwards but once the way for Mance's trek is cleared there's no real interest in wiping out what's left of the Watch.

Then of course Mance's attempt to take Castle Black fails but then they are allowed to surrender and come within the Wall. All should be secure, but ancient suspicions aside how long is the regular garrison going to feel secure with the faces of the old gods being carved on the trees behind them?

Well, some of them will feel fine. Melisandre (and anyone from further south) will want to burn them :)

I say this once and once only -Mance is one of the good guys.Ser Walton Skaggs and Colonel Mustard are not.They may even be the same person.

Possibly, possibly. The key would be: Colonel Mustard is an imperialist. The Others are guerrillas.

BC raises a good point, however. In the case of Mance, or perhaps from the viewpoint of the Others, perhaps it's an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario? (Possibly Mance is not aware of his unlikely allies?)

[redriver]

I always find that the internet could use a little more salt.

:cheers:

[Melifeather]

Val appears too late. My current stream of thought has Hardhome vs Valyria as verse 1 of the song of ice and fire, with the Targaryens escaping the doom as an undesired outcome that needs to be dealt with. Now who escaped Hardhome?

If that's the way you see it, then shouldn't the Long Night be the Doom of Ice? The Last Hero obtained survival by gaining "guest right". The full intent was to rid Westeros of the pesky humans, but one was able to call olly olly oxen free...

[Melifeather]

Except in the case of Mel we can follow the line........She had sex with Stannis( we know that ) came full term in a matter of what days! and gave birth to a shadow - a black shadow-it looked like Stannis.

There is no clear line like this when it comes to the WWs,their are serious gaps and inconsistencies...

Sheep,incorrect amount of babies per WWs,fuzzy eye witness accounts and weird conversations.

Maybe all the White Walkers look like Craster?

[wolfmaid7]

Maybe all the White Walkers look like Craster?

Wouldn't Sam and co have recognized seeing as they had such a close encounter with Ser Puddles,i give a pass the Waymar and co as that would have revealed something too early.Atlease Sam might have picked something up. If a Black Shadow could be recognized as being Stannis,why not a White Shadow being recogized as having the likness of Craster.

[Eira Seren]

The Boltons?

Wasn't expecting that. How come?

Perhaps a better way to put this would be to say that Mance is not allied with the "kneelers" south of the Wall? After all, the Free Folk are human too, and Mance certainly seemed interested in making certain to take as many of them south of the Wall as he could (at least as far as this suit his needs).

If this is the case, then I can totally see how Mance would want to use the Others as an army to help him conquer the 7Ks, just as long as he found some way to control them (the Horn of Joramun or some such powerful magical device).

I have no problem with this theory if it's true, because I've always liked the Free Folk (hence why I don't call them Wildlings) much better than the "kneelers" of Westeros.

As for Euron, he cares for nothing other than power for himself. At least Mance has shown a much more human side to him, which I seriously doubt was just an act he put up to impress a teenage Crow claiming to be a deserter, Jon killing the Halfhand not withstanding.

Mance seems to think he can't stay North of the Wall. If Winter is coming, then he's right: he's going to have to feed them, and in order to do that, they're going to have to move south, and try to find some land with sustainable resources. He might have always wanted to anyway and this is a great excuse, but I think it's a good case that Euron is interested in power, but the driving force behind Mance's leadership is survival for his people.

[lokisnow]

Perhaps a better way to put this would be to say that Mance is not allied with the "kneelers" south of the Wall? After all, the Fae Folk are human too, and Mance certainly seemed interested in making certain to take as many of them south of the Wall as he could (at least as far as this suit his needs).

Are you sure about that? ;) look at it from a slightly more heretical perspective, I changed it a bit to help your heresy along, and hear what you might be saying...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

BC I agree with you on a lot of points, but I do admit the Craster sons=Popsicles give me pause.There are a few inconsistancies that still bug me.I do believe the wives are very knowledgeable about what they have been doing.Which leads me to my question and I would like your opinion. In a community so confined , what do you think is the reason behind Gilly refering to them as "the cold gods" and The Old woman saying they are Craster's sons.Gods to Craster's sons within the same house seems weird.

Wouldn't Sam and co have recognized seeing as they had such a close encounter with Ser Puddles,i give a pass the Waymar and co as that would have revealed something too early.Atlease Sam might have picked something up. If a Black Shadow could be recognized as being Stannis,why not a White Shadow being recogized as having the likness of Craster.

I suggested once long ago that perhaps the Others (WWs) appear as they are expected to appear. Beauty (or whatever) is in the eye of the beholder, as it were...

Also... with respect to the "cold gods" vs. "the sons" terminology - I don't really think there's a conflict to resolve here. The circumstances, the audience, and the speakers are all different in each case. When Gilly uses the phrase "cold gods," it may be that she expects that to mean something particular to Jon. And it does. But it doesn't sway him to help - he's not headed back to the Wall anyway. Later, when the older wives speak to Sam, it is past time to go. He was not born in the North - who knows if "cold gods" means anything to him - they only need to say enough to scare his ass into motion. Besides which - those older women, at that particular time, are speaking from a position of implied power. That whole chapter reeks of Samhainn - and they are (in that moment) the embodiment of the Cailleach. Sam doesn't have to understand - he's just got to do what they say: take Gilly, and move it. Now.

ETA: Also, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that the baby --> Other transformation is of the "bloodmagic" variety. None of this "I touch your cheek with my nasty fingernail and you turn all blue" crap. That's great for tee-vee. But in the books, this sort of thing involves blood, life, and death. "Life's blood." It's like:

Rhaego ---> Dragon Eggs

MMD ---> Dragons

Lord Steffon's Fool ---> Patchface

Lewin ---> Heart Tree

Greenseer ---> Weirwood

(Etc.)

[Eira Seren]

Maybe all the White Walkers look like Craster?

Maybe so.

Except in the case of Mel we can follow the line........She had sex with Stannis( we know that ) came full term in a matter of what days! and gave birth to a shadow - a black shadow-it looked like Stannis.

There is no clear line like this when it comes to the WWs,their are serious gaps and inconsistencies...

Sheep,incorrect amount of babies per WWs,fuzzy eye witness accounts and weird conversations.

Still, it seems like Craster wouldn't be the only supplier of babies. If human sacrifices were still being made at White Harbor not so long ago (and potentially sooner than the dates given in the maester's account), then surely there are those out there like Craster? Isn't it said that even somem of the Stark bannerman still keep the old customs?

Maybe the WW all look the same to the humans :)

[Hielo y Fuego]

Mance seems to think he can't stay North of the Wall. If Winter is coming, then he's right: he's going to have to feed them, and in order to do that, they're going to have to move south, and try to find some land with sustainable resources. He might have always wanted to anyway and this is a great excuse, but I think it's a good case that Euron is interested in power, but the driving force behind Mance's leadership is survival for his people.

This is how I see it as well. I was just speculating what may be Mance's true motives, in case he is somehow linked to (or in control of) the Others/WW.

Are you sure about that? ;) look at it from a slightly more heretical perspective, I changed it a bit to help your heresy along, and hear what you might be saying...

hehe, well played. Now, maybe it's got something to do with my own rebellious, independent nature, but I still like the Free Folk much better than the kneelers south of the Wall. So, despite what his true intentions might be (though I admit I'm not sold on him having a sinister, hidden agenda) I'm on Team Mance till the end.

[wolfmaid7]

I suggested once long ago that perhaps the Others (WWs) appear as they are expected to appear. Beauty (or whatever) is in the eye of the beholder, as it were...

Also... with respect to the "cold gods" vs. "the sons" terminology - I don't really think there's a conflict to resolve here. The circumstances, the audience, and the speakers are all different in each case. When Gilly uses the phrase "cold gods," it may be that she expects that to mean something particular to Jon. And it does. But it doesn't sway him to help - he's not headed back to the Wall anyway. Later, when the older wives speak to Sam, it is past time to go. He was not born in the North - who knows if "cold gods" means anything to him - they only need to say enough to scare his ass into motion. Besides which - those older women, at that particular time, are speaking from a position of implied power. That whole chapter reeks of Samhainn - and they are (in that moment) the embodiment of the Cailleach. Sam doesn't have to understand - he's just got to do what they say: take Gilly, and move it. Now.

ETA: Also, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that the baby --> Other transformation is of the "bloodmagic" variety. None of this "I touch your cheek with my nasty fingernail and you turn all blue" crap. That's great for tee-vee. But in the books, this sort of thing involves blood, life, and death. "Life's blood." It's like:

Rhaego ---> Dragon Eggs

MMD ---> Dragons

Lord Steffon's Fool ---> Patchface

Lewin ---> Heart Tree

Greenseer ---> Weirwood

(Etc.)

Its not about terminolgy, but you did illuminate what I was trying to get at which is the speakers and the way their language alters in order to get a desired result. I noted earlier in the thread the same thing. Gillyy didnr sway Jon, Sam was swayed by the OG's words. The point I was driving home was in a "cult" environment the ssme phrase would be drumed home like a mantra we don't see that, its autonomy to change the language to manipulate.

Gilly does it again at the Wall when she tells Jon Sam and I saved him from the cold. Which tells me despite Craster's death he was going to be exposed or she was speaking specifically about the incident eirh Small Paul.Conviently absent was anything resembling saving him from "the cold gods" if you get my drift about how the wives including Gilly are sketchy.

So on a whole what I'm driving at is the women for how lobg their cult has been tgere are capitalizing on a myth in order to get rid if their male sons.Ensuring theyhave one breeder.Think Hercules and the mares, the amazon women.Maybe even the sirens and the isle of Calypso.

[Black Crow]

You lost me here BC,per this theory wouldn't the WWs come about by "transformation".

They babies are born already they are just being "turned" into something else don't you think?

Further,they suck as a Sellsword company,probably because their purpose isn't to deal with (live) humans

Their purpose is to intimidate people rather than to win battles, except in the case of the Fist where its necessary. That leads us on to the question of why and that in turn to the question of who is creating them using Craster's sons.

[Black Crow]

In more general terms, looking at this from the writing/story-telling point of view there is otherwise a big problem with the Others in the apparent lack of engagement.

If we follow the conventional view that they are simply the big bad from the cold, hating all living things. How are they to be defeated. In a big battle on or near the Trident, with dragons and fire and rivers of melting ice? Not only is that cheesy but its not what GRRM writes. This is something which is going to be settled in the end by engaging characters. The engagement might be through dialogue or the pointy end of something sharp, but its going to be settled by individuals rather than by legions.

If we turn to the Fire side of this for a moment we have the Mad Queen and her Amazing Dragons, we have Mystic Mel and her powders, potions and shadow babies, and there are probably others there too crawling around in the woodwork before emerging in their true colours. But what of Ice? Is that to remain an anonymous threat or are we once again going to find the real protagonists much closer to home?

[wolfmaid7]

Their purpose is to intimidate people rather than to win battles, except in the case of the Fist where its necessary. That leads us on to the question of why and that in turn to the question of who is creating them using Craster's sons.

You know my take on wheter or not WWs were actually at The Fist , so I'll leave that out.To go back to my initial query of them being created vs transformed which I thougt was the theory.That they magically get transformed and aged.

[Black Crow]

If a Black Shadow could be recognized as being Stannis,why not a White Shadow being recognized as having the likeness of Craster.

When the second one appears Will sees him "as a twin" to the first

[Black Crow]

.To go back to my initial query of them being created vs transformed which I thougt was the theory.That they magically get transformed and aged.

Whether they go through a magically accelerated growth or their spirits are transferred to ice golems, they are created as such rather than born as baby white walkers.

[Melifeather]

In more general terms, looking at this from the writing/story-telling point of view there is otherwise a big problem with the Others in the apparent lack of engagement.

If we follow the conventional view that they are simply the big bad from the cold, hating all living things. How are they to be defeated. In a big battle on or near the Trident, with dragons and fire and rivers of melting ice? Not only is that cheesy but its not what GRRM writes. This is something which is going to be settled in the end by engaging characters. The engagement might be through dialogue or the pointy end of something sharp, but its going to be settled by individuals rather than by legions.

If we turn to the Fire side of this for a moment we have the Mad Queen and her Amazing Dragons, we have Mystic Mel and her powders, potions and shadow babies, and there are probably others there too crawling around in the woodwork before emerging in their true colours. But what of Ice? Is that to remain an anonymous threat or are we once again going to find the real protagonists much closer to home?

Well, cheesy or not, what of Daenerys dream that seems to describe the very scenario you think won't happen?

[JNR]

@Harlan:

Demonstrating that 3 theories don't seem(to you) to be good, doesn't mean no such theory exists. In order to falsify the theory, you must show that no such theory exists.

As always, with any theory, the burden of proof is not on doubters, to falsify a theory.

The burden of proof is on those who set forth the theory, to demonstrate it as correct by showing that it fits the evidence of the fictional world, and answers pertinent questions. So far, there's never been a theory of this sort that fits the provided evidence (in my opinion).

For instance, by demonstrating how... if Craster is an expert on the Others and what they want... he could possibly think it was a good idea to offer them a sheep.

I do agree with you that there could conceivably be a Craster's Sons = Others theory, either on the forums or in the books, that explains problematic facts such as the above.

Here's another theory: Jon will eventually be king of Westeros, and AAR, and the PtwP, and sit the Iron Throne, and marry Dany. Just like the theory of Craster's sons being the Others, this is a widely-accepted notion, seen by some as de facto canon and confidently asserted nearly every day in the forums.

Personally I find it improbable, and would (just as I would about the origin of Others) be happy to accept any wager of any size on this topic.

But it's certainly not impossible. I certainly can't "falsify" it, and wouldn't try. Only a complete fool would start throwing around odds like 0% or 100% for any theory involving this series.