THOSE WHO SING

[Alia of the knife]

And this by Rudyard Kipling.

"The Song of the Dead."

"Hear now the Song of the Dead -- in the North by the torn berg-edges --
They that look still to the Pole, asleep by their hide-stripped sledges.
Song of the Dead in the South -- in the sun by their skeleton horses,
Where the warrigal whimpers and bays through the dust
of the sear river-courses.

Song of the Dead in the East -- in the heat-rotted jungle hollows,
Where the dog-ape barks in the kloof --
in the brake of the buffalo-wallows.
Song of the Dead in the West --
in the Barrens, the waste that betrayed them,
Where the wolverene tumbles their packs
from the camp and the grave-mound they made them;
Hear now the Song of the Dead!


I

We were dreamers, dreaming greatly, in the man-stifled town;
We yearned beyond the sky-line where the strange roads go down.
Came the Whisper, came the Vision, came the Power with the Need,
Till the Soul that is not man's soul was lent us to lead.
As the deer breaks -- as the steer breaks -- from the herd where they graze,
In the faith of little children we went on our ways.
Then the wood failed -- then the food failed -- then the last water dried --
In the faith of little children we lay down and died.
On the sand-drift -- on the veldt-side -- in the fern-scrub we lay,
That our sons might follow after by the bones on the way.
Follow after -- follow after! We have watered the root,
And the bud has come to blossom that ripens for fruit!
Follow after -- we are waiting, by the trails that we lost,
For the sounds of many footsteps, for the tread of a host.
Follow after -- follow after -- for the harvest is sown:
By the bones about the wayside ye shall come to your own!

When Drake went down to the Horn
And England was crowned thereby,
'Twixt seas unsailed and shores unhailed
Our Lodge -- our Lodge was born
(And England was crowned thereby!)

Which never shall close again
By day nor yet by night,
While man shall take his life to stake
At risk of shoal or main
(By day nor yet by night).

But standeth even so
As now we witness here,
While men depart, of joyful heart,
Adventure for to know
(As now bear witness here!)


II

We have fed our sea for a thousand years
And she calls us, still unfed,
Though there's never a wave of all her waves
But marks our English dead:
We have strawed our best to the weed's unrest,
To the shark and the sheering gull.
If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

There's never a flood goes shoreward now
But lifts a keel we manned;
There's never an ebb goes seaward now
But drops our dead on the sand --
But slinks our dead on the sands forlore,
From the Ducies to the Swin.
If blood be the price of admiralty,
If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid it in!

We must feed our sea for a thousand years,
For that is our doom and pride,
As it was when they sailed with the ~Golden Hind~,
Or the wreck that struck last tide --
Or the wreck that lies on the spouting reef
Where the ghastly blue-lights flare.
If blood be the price of admiralty,
If blood be the price of admiralty,
If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' bought it fair!"

This also sounds familiar. :cool4:

[Eira Seren]

Thanks for posting. I've heard something similar, and it makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck, but awesome story.

Great call out, love this!

:bowdown: Awesome piece of work. Great job!

Thank you! It's been fun to write.

In response to all of the above can I just say, what brilliant posts! There is the meta description too that I think GRRM employs. The earliest known or extant Old English poetry is a simple lyric, 'Spring has sprung' (anon) IIRC from my first year OE module.( many years ago now :( ) Literature was either verse or drama before the modern English era, and Martin wants to plunge us into a world where oral history and song are one and the same thing. It seems the clues as to what the Starks have forgotten are there should they care to listen.

This is a really good point! Without even realizing it, I was giving credit to the Singers and to Old Nan's stories simply because they seem at odds (or at least older, and maintaining perhaps more knowledge) than all of Maester Luwin's written sources.

And this by Rudyard Kipling.

"The Song of the Dead."

"Hear now the Song of the Dead -- in the North by the torn berg-edges --

They that look still to the Pole, asleep by their hide-stripped sledges.

Song of the Dead in the South -- in the sun by their skeleton horses,

Where the warrigal whimpers and bays through the dust

of the sear river-courses.

Song of the Dead in the East -- in the heat-rotted jungle hollows,

Where the dog-ape barks in the kloof --

in the brake of the buffalo-wallows.

Song of the Dead in the West --

in the Barrens, the waste that betrayed them,

Where the wolverene tumbles their packs

from the camp and the grave-mound they made them;

Hear now the Song of the Dead!

I

We were dreamers, dreaming greatly, in the man-stifled town;

We yearned beyond the sky-line where the strange roads go down.

Came the Whisper, came the Vision, came the Power with the Need,

Till the Soul that is not man's soul was lent us to lead.

As the deer breaks -- as the steer breaks -- from the herd where they graze,

In the faith of little children we went on our ways.

Then the wood failed -- then the food failed -- then the last water dried --

In the faith of little children we lay down and died.

On the sand-drift -- on the veldt-side -- in the fern-scrub we lay,

That our sons might follow after by the bones on the way.

Follow after -- follow after! We have watered the root,

And the bud has come to blossom that ripens for fruit!

Follow after -- we are waiting, by the trails that we lost,

For the sounds of many footsteps, for the tread of a host.

Follow after -- follow after -- for the harvest is sown:

By the bones about the wayside ye shall come to your own!

When Drake went down to the Horn

And England was crowned thereby,

'Twixt seas unsailed and shores unhailed

Our Lodge -- our Lodge was born

(And England was crowned thereby!)

Which never shall close again

By day nor yet by night,

While man shall take his life to stake

At risk of shoal or main

(By day nor yet by night).

But standeth even so

As now we witness here,

While men depart, of joyful heart,

Adventure for to know

(As now bear witness here!)

II

We have fed our sea for a thousand years

And she calls us, still unfed,

Though there's never a wave of all her waves

But marks our English dead:

We have strawed our best to the weed's unrest,

To the shark and the sheering gull.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

There's never a flood goes shoreward now

But lifts a keel we manned;

There's never an ebb goes seaward now

But drops our dead on the sand --

But slinks our dead on the sands forlore,

From the Ducies to the Swin.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' paid it in!

We must feed our sea for a thousand years,

For that is our doom and pride,

As it was when they sailed with the ~Golden Hind~,

Or the wreck that struck last tide --

Or the wreck that lies on the spouting reef

Where the ghastly blue-lights flare.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' bought it fair!"

This also sounds familiar. :cool4:

The song of sacrifice :)

[Ghosts Lunch]

The Importance of the Songs:

The Songs of certain characters are a language linking the Old Races to those sensitive enough in the realm of man to percieve the language.Which means there is a potential oppurtunity for commnication from the Old Powers or infiltration by the Old powers to achieve a desired end.

I know there are plenty more examples and i invite you the share them if you see moments where they come into play. Thanks guys.

Some fantastic stuff in there, great observations

This is actually why in the books I somewhat enjoy the Bran arc the most, it delves into the very deep issues and background lore/stories but this is hard to convey on television so his arc seems rather boring there

This is also why the books shouldn't be rushed too much. Personally I don't mind waiting a little longer or have the show surpass it as long as he depth is honoured etc

That is how a true masterpiece is defined, it has some very fine in-depth aspects to it that aren't immediately noticeable

[Ghosts Lunch]

I vaguely thought of this, but more poignantly I thought of Tom Bombadil.

"Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,

Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.

None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:

His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster."

and

"Get out, you old wight! Vanish in the sunlight!

Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,

Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!

Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!

Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,

Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended."

Ah Tom Bombadil

My favourite character in that book series and his is the chapter I enjoy reading the most in that book

I love how he just sings everything into submission

I had been thinking the "Dragon has three heads" may have been Dany, Jon and either Tyrion/Aegon but now this thread has got me thinking it could be Jon, Dany and Bran. All three could be Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, after all it is worth considering Bran was actually the Prince of Winterfell and it didn't escape my notice that Jojen and Meera were still calling him their Prince even after Winterfell was sacked. From this perspective you would have Bran = Ice, Dany = Fire and Jon = Ice/Fire combined if R=L=J is correct

[Ghosts Lunch]

Daaang that GHH request gave me goosebumps,that is a nice catch.I wonder what is it in "that" song that resonates power?

And it being sung in the place they are singing it?...

[wolfmaid7]

In response to all of the above can I just say, what brilliant posts! There is the meta description too that I think GRRM employs. The earliest known or extant Old English poetry is a simple lyric, 'Spring has sprung' (anon) IIRC from my first year OE module.( many years ago now :( ) Literature was either verse or drama before the modern English era, and Martin wants to plunge us into a world where oral history and song are one and the same thing. It seems the clues as to what the Starks have forgotten are there should they care to listen.

Thankyou Northernwarg i love how layered this world is in lore,and i think the Starks lost alot that made this present generation ignorant of the connections.However, i believe there is hope for them and i believe the remaining Starks will begin to listen more to the song.

And this by Rudyard Kipling.

"The Song of the Dead."

"Hear now the Song of the Dead -- in the North by the torn berg-edges --

They that look still to the Pole, asleep by their hide-stripped sledges.

Song of the Dead in the South -- in the sun by their skeleton horses,

Where the warrigal whimpers and bays through the dust

of the sear river-courses.

Song of the Dead in the East -- in the heat-rotted jungle hollows,

Where the dog-ape barks in the kloof --

in the brake of the buffalo-wallows.

Song of the Dead in the West --

in the Barrens, the waste that betrayed them,

Where the wolverene tumbles their packs

from the camp and the grave-mound they made them;

Hear now the Song of the Dead!

I

We were dreamers, dreaming greatly, in the man-stifled town;

We yearned beyond the sky-line where the strange roads go down.

Came the Whisper, came the Vision, came the Power with the Need,

Till the Soul that is not man's soul was lent us to lead.

As the deer breaks -- as the steer breaks -- from the herd where they graze,

In the faith of little children we went on our ways.

Then the wood failed -- then the food failed -- then the last water dried --

In the faith of little children we lay down and died.

On the sand-drift -- on the veldt-side -- in the fern-scrub we lay,

That our sons might follow after by the bones on the way.

Follow after -- follow after! We have watered the root,

And the bud has come to blossom that ripens for fruit!

Follow after -- we are waiting, by the trails that we lost,

For the sounds of many footsteps, for the tread of a host.

Follow after -- follow after -- for the harvest is sown:

By the bones about the wayside ye shall come to your own!

When Drake went down to the Horn

And England was crowned thereby,

'Twixt seas unsailed and shores unhailed

Our Lodge -- our Lodge was born

(And England was crowned thereby!)

Which never shall close again

By day nor yet by night,

While man shall take his life to stake

At risk of shoal or main

(By day nor yet by night).

But standeth even so

As now we witness here,

While men depart, of joyful heart,

Adventure for to know

(As now bear witness here!)

II

We have fed our sea for a thousand years

And she calls us, still unfed,

Though there's never a wave of all her waves

But marks our English dead:

We have strawed our best to the weed's unrest,

To the shark and the sheering gull.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

There's never a flood goes shoreward now

But lifts a keel we manned;

There's never an ebb goes seaward now

But drops our dead on the sand --

But slinks our dead on the sands forlore,

From the Ducies to the Swin.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' paid it in!

We must feed our sea for a thousand years,

For that is our doom and pride,

As it was when they sailed with the ~Golden Hind~,

Or the wreck that struck last tide --

Or the wreck that lies on the spouting reef

Where the ghastly blue-lights flare.

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

If blood be the price of admiralty,

Lord God, we ha' bought it fair!"

This also sounds familiar. :cool4:

Very familiar,nice one.

Thank you! It's been fun to write.

This is a really good point! Without even realizing it, I was giving credit to the Singers and to Old Nan's stories simply because they seem at odds (or at least older, and maintaining perhaps more knowledge) than all of Maester Luwin's written sources.

The song of sacrifice :)

Makes me wonder why the Crows would peck Bran when they heard the children's song,i what were they trying to get across?

Some fantastic stuff in there, great observations

This is actually why in the books I somewhat enjoy the Bran arc the most, it delves into the very deep issues and background lore/stories but this is hard to convey on television so his arc seems rather boring there

This is also why the books shouldn't be rushed too much. Personally I don't mind waiting a little longer or have the show surpass it as long as he depth is honoured etc

That is how a true masterpiece is defined, it has some very fine in-depth aspects to it that aren't immediately noticeable

Thanks yeah it sad that some things can't really be translated to the show because man i think viewers are being so deprived of the hidden mysteries of the texts.

And it being sung in the place they are singing it?...

Exactly so maybe a sacred place.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I think i got it!!!! The reason i believe Drogon and Ghost are different and why their bond is different.

Remember what BR said about the Singers,more specifically the ones born with Red or green eyes.

"By these signs do the gods marked those they have chosen to recieve the gift."

There we have it.OOOO we are in dagerous territoy here boys and girls :devil:

Different frequencies of some kind?

That applies to singers though. That said assuming it wasn't a mistake Vals eyes seem to have changed colour...

@Wolfmaid while BR said that in reference to the Children, I definitely think that's important somehow; We have both Bloodraven and Ghost as albinos and Jojen with the moss green eyes, but Bran has neither so it cant be that essential

Yeah I have been wondering about Robin, sounds like him continuing to hear singing in his dreams even though Marillion is dead is indeed a case for him having some green dreams abilties (is BR or CotF trying to contact him? There's a thread somewhere).

I personally wonder if he has warging capabilities inherent in him, the hint being in how he always wants to "make people fly", probably because he wants to fly himself. He obviously loves the story about the ancestor who flew and of course the Arryn sigil is a Falcon along with the Moon so I do wonder if he'll end up warging into a falcon at some point

[Ghosts Lunch]

The idea that the animals are willing and contributing parties is pretty significant to the success of the bond, and to the nature of the song's magic, I'll bet.

Raises the question about Varmyr Sixskins though? he basically took over the Wolf of his mentor, overwhelming the bond of those two

Then there's the fact the Bear would try and 'reject' him and was rather harder to tame

Though this could go somewhat to explaining Coldhands, like with how Qyburn seems to have transformed the magicalised manticore venom in Ser Gregor to create Ser Robert Strong, I personally wonder if BR or the children were able to 'hack' the necromancy spell the Others use to control Wights and 're-program' Coldhands to be their robot so to speak. Best language I can think of at the moment

We've already seen through Arya that the Starks have it in them to warg into multiple animals, eg she has Nymeria as a Stark but also she can warg Cats at "Cat of the Canals" which obviously is themed after her mother, after Cat was her mothers shortened name and the Canals are basically an urbanised version of the Riverlands

So, it will be interesting to see if in time Jon Snow has a bond with both Ghost and one of Dany's Dragons, probably the White one Viserion I would guess if any?

This brings me to the Giants and Bran warging Hodor.

There is a theory that Mance has found the Horn of Winter or Joramun in Winterfells crypts, and blew it twice (the horn that Theon felt in his bones and raises the question of the magical vibrations of the horns). It is theorised this could have "woken the Giants from the Earth" and explained why Wun Wun went from being fairly timid vegetarian into a more aggressive Giant as was the case of Old Nans stories, are the sleeping Children warging into the Giants?

[Mother Other]

Does anyone know where to find the quote in which Sansa recalls only once in her life where a bard had visited Winterfell? I'd like to read the passage again but I don't have a digital copy to find it easily. Doesn't it seem a bit funny that the other times we know of that a bard has sung in Winterfell, bad shit has gone down? The only other times I can think of is the Bael the Bard story and the current Mance/Able stint, is singing in Winterfell a bad omen? Other than an actual Stark possibly, we are told in one of Aryas POV's that Sansa is a lovely singer herself. Just going from memory here, I may be completely wrong lol.

[Ellfoy]

In response to all of the above can I just say, what brilliant posts! There is the meta description too that I think GRRM employs. The earliest known or extant Old English poetry is a simple lyric, 'Spring has sprung' (anon) IIRC from my first year OE module.( many years ago now :( ) Literature was either verse or drama before the modern English era, and Martin wants to plunge us into a world where oral history and song are one and the same thing. It seems the clues as to what the Starks have forgotten are there should they care to listen.

Well Sansa always listened to the songs and know them all. Yes, maybe that is not the same kind of songs but could it be a clue ? Sansa seems to be the most removed from the magic of all the Starks kids because she had lost her wolf but I'd always got the feeling that she is not. Her chapters are always eerie and in a way have a magic to them (Snow castle for example).

[northernwarg]

Well Sansa always listened to the songs and know them all. Yes, maybe that is not the same kind of songs but could it be a clue ? Sansa seems to be the most removed from the magic of all the Starks kids because she had lost her wolf but I'd always got the feeling that she is not. Her chapters are always eerie and in a way have a magic to them (Snow castle for example).

Eerie is a nice description. Remember though she does have access to ' magic' in the Vale right now. Corbray's sword could be named for her and her lost wolf - Lady Forlorn.

[Eira Seren]

Thanks Eira again i have to express my admiration for your handwork in putting this together,and i hope others really take a look at it because you pointed out some extraordinary things which to be have far reaching implications.One of which is the COTF in the position of "Collectors" of Songs and i compare them also to La Loba in the tale Mother Other provided.The implication for one is the COTF may not be about helping "anyone" in particular except "the songs" they may place greater value on those, seeing as the songs immortalize eveything and if the songs remain then in a sense they live on.

Secondly,and this may seem very diabolical for the tree huggers but lets look at what Jojen said about a "reader living a thousand lives" what if in this new world where men have built that forced reclusiveness have forced them to live through creatures that have a song. They could experiance everything and anything without leaving their caves,all they have to do is take andantage of the various songs.All these bones and the office of the GS is an endless book for them to read and learn from. Lastly,how far would they go to preserve and keep the collection of songs continuos?

This is a pretty cool observation and it may not be about Keeping the crew of the Silence from talking but as you say using their 'tounges" in a ritual pertaing to sounding the horn.

Yep i was thinking of the Horn,those tounges are probably roasting over and open fire..lol

Thanks for the encouragement!

Eww. Roasted tongue. . . Though you've got a point about the sacirifice required. The Singers are likely invested in their collection and in keeping the archive going, and will probably sacrifice whatever they need to in order to do it. So I think you're right, perhaps they aren't helping anyone else at all.

Makes me wonder why the Crows would peck Bran when they heard the children's song,i what were they trying to get across?

Were they just trying to get him to listen, or learn it?

. . .

This brings me to the Giants and Bran warging Hodor.

There is a theory that Mance has found the Horn of Winter or Joramun in Winterfells crypts, and blew it twice (the horn that Theon felt in his bones and raises the question of the magical vibrations of the horns). It is theorised this could have "woken the Giants from the Earth" and explained why Wun Wun went from being fairly timid vegetarian into a more aggressive Giant as was the case of Old Nans stories, are the sleeping Children warging into the Giants?

That's an interesting theory, something must be happening if that's the horn and Mance has it. I think the idea of the magical vibration of the music must apply to more than Euron's dragonhorn. It makes me wonder, too, about this horn of the night's watch, and the three blasts for WW. I realize it's just a warning system, but an odd connection all the same.

Eerie is a nice description. Remember though she does have access to ' magic' in the Vale right now. Corbray's sword could be named for her and her lost wolf - Lady Forlorn.

Nice catch!

[Ghosts Lunch]

That's an interesting theory, something must be happening if that's the horn and Mance has it. I think the idea of the magical vibration of the music must apply to more than Euron's dragonhorn. It makes me wonder, too, about this horn of the night's watch, and the three blasts for WW. I realize it's just a warning system, but an odd connection all the same.

!

Yeah there's a really interesting thread around I read a few days ago about the various horns, and the significance of 1 blast, 2 blasts and 3 blasts, eg Eurons horn required 3 blasts to be fully activated though there are consequences with 1 and 2 as well

Of course there is tradition with the NW but if we combine this thread and that one and consider magical horns as magical tones, I do wonder if instead of difficult sound, if someone was warged into a dragon for example and heard from the dragons perspective the dragon horn would be a beautiful sound and/or melody. Either that or if someone like Dany were to hear it or perhaps fire priests like Moqorro? It may not sound as harsh as it did to Victarion for example

Same with other horns, magical ones especially, eg Joramun, Sams one of it can be made to work (it was silent but perhaps like a dog whistle?) and also that Old one with the runes that Melisandre burned

[Eira Seren]

Yeah there's a really interesting thread around I read a few days ago about the various horns, and the significance of 1 blast, 2 blasts and 3 blasts, eg Eurons horn required 3 blasts to be fully activated though there are consequences with 1 and 2 as well

Of course there is tradition with the NW but if we combine this thread and that one and consider magical horns as magical tones, I do wonder if instead of difficult sound, if someone was warged into a dragon for example and heard from the dragons perspective the dragon horn would be a beautiful sound and/or melody. Same with other horns, magical ones especially, eg Joramun, Sams one of it can be made to work and also that Old one with the runes that Melisandre burned

That would be a fantastic passage, I'd love to read what it would be like hearing the song from inside the skinchanged critter! I wonder if we are getting a taste of it when Dany rides Drogon. I keep thinking that the way she feels hot, too, is indicative of her connection with the dragon. Maybe she's just not aware she's hearing a song.

[wolfmaid7]

Different frequencies of some kind?

That applies to singers though. That said assuming it wasn't a mistake Vals eyes seem to have changed colour...

Yeah I have been wondering about Robin, sounds like him continuing to hear singing in his dreams even though Marillion is dead is indeed a case for him having some green dreams abilties (is BR or CotF trying to contact him? There's a thread somewhere).

I personally wonder if he has warging capabilities inherent in him, the hint being in how he always wants to "make people fly", probably because he wants to fly himself. He obviously loves the story about the ancestor who flew and of course the Arryn sigil is a Falcon along with the Moon so I do wonder if he'll end up warging into a falcon at some point

Looking at the context in BR's talk with Bran and one of the reasons i started this thread was i thing BR was subtly using the term more loosly. It gave me the sense that those who Bran called the Singers (COTF) aren't the "only" singers.Singers are "those who sing" have a song and thus isn't limited to the little green tree huggers.

Raises the question about Varmyr Sixskins though? he basically took over the Wolf of his mentor, overwhelming the bond of those two

Then there's the fact the Bear would try and 'reject' him and was rather harder to tame

Though this could go somewhat to explaining Coldhands, like with how Qyburn seems to have transformed the magicalised manticore venom in Ser Gregor to create Ser Robert Strong, I personally wonder if BR or the children were able to 'hack' the necromancy spell the Others use to control Wights and 're-program' Coldhands to be their robot so to speak. Best language I can think of at the moment

We've already seen through Arya that the Starks have it in them to warg into multiple animals, eg she has Nymeria as a Stark but also she can warg Cats at "Cat of the Canals" which obviously is themed after her mother, after Cat was her mothers shortened name and the Canals are basically an urbanised version of the Riverlands

So, it will be interesting to see if in time Jon Snow has a bond with both Ghost and one of Dany's Dragons, probably the White one Viserion I would guess if any?

This brings me to the Giants and Bran warging Hodor.

There is a theory that Mance has found the Horn of Winter or Joramun in Winterfells crypts, and blew it twice (the horn that Theon felt in his bones and raises the question of the magical vibrations of the horns). It is theorised this could have "woken the Giants from the Earth" and explained why Wun Wun went from being fairly timid vegetarian into a more aggressive Giant as was the case of Old Nans stories, are the sleeping Children warging into the Giants?

This is the difference with V6 and all Skinchangers in comparison to the Stark kids the animals V6 and others Skinchange are animals they take by force.They ride them over and over until their will is broken. You Bran did the same with Hodor,who fought and fought until he was broken in by Bran. There is a quote when Bran in Summer went looking for the village in ADWD you could hear Summer's own voice and he reffered to Bran as "the boy who shared his skin".V6 and others don't form that kind of bond.

Does anyone know where to find the quote in which Sansa recalls only once in her life where a bard had visited Winterfell? I'd like to read the passage again but I don't have a digital copy to find it easily. Doesn't it seem a bit funny that the other times we know of that a bard has sung in Winterfell, bad shit has gone down? The only other times I can think of is the Bael the Bard story and the current Mance/Able stint, is singing in Winterfell a bad omen? Other than an actual Stark possibly, we are told in one of Aryas POV's that Sansa is a lovely singer herself. Just going from memory here, I may be completely wrong lol.

That's interesting......anyone know of that?

Well Sansa always listened to the songs and know them all. Yes, maybe that is not the same kind of songs but could it be a clue ? Sansa seems to be the most removed from the magic of all the Starks kids because she had lost her wolf but I'd always got the feeling that she is not. Her chapters are always eerie and in a way have a magic to them (Snow castle for example).

I think Sansa denied that aspect of herself but i think there's hope for her.I kinda thought the "winged wolf" applied to her of Jon and not Bran.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Eww. Roasted tongue. . . Though you've got a point about the sacirifice required. The Singers are likely invested in their collection and in keeping the archive going, and will probably sacrifice whatever they need to in order to do it. So I think you're right, perhaps they aren't helping anyone else at all.

Were they just trying to get him to listen, or learn it?

I get the sense that if Bran truly listens he could eventually get their speech that knowledge maybe on the edge of revealing itself. You revelation on the bones got me thinking these little buggers might be just concerned with collecting the songs and that's it. As long as the songs survive their good with that.

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah there's a really interesting thread around I read a few days ago about the various horns, and the significance of 1 blast, 2 blasts and 3 blasts, eg Eurons horn required 3 blasts to be fully activated though there are consequences with 1 and 2 as well

Of course there is tradition with the NW but if we combine this thread and that one and consider magical horns as magical tones, I do wonder if instead of difficult sound, if someone was warged into a dragon for example and heard from the dragons perspective the dragon horn would be a beautiful sound and/or melody. Either that or if someone like Dany were to hear it or perhaps fire priests like Moqorro? It may not sound as harsh as it did to Victarion for example

Same with other horns, magical ones especially, eg Joramun, Sams one of it can be made to work (it was silent but perhaps like a dog whistle?) and also that Old one with the runes that Melisandre burned

The horns are another big clue and i like how you focus on the horns as magical "tones". I did make a connection between what happened to Dany when she heard Drogon sng to her the first time and the Dragon horn. The effects are similar except in Euron's case the sound made seered him inside out and it was painful but the one who blew it took the death. The same thing happened with Dany on hearing Drogon Sing to her but unlike Euron it wasn't a terrible sound that burned. It was music that washed her clean.

So i think the Horn is a way to trick a Dragon into thinking you've passed the test of Fire and Blood where you heard Dragonsong and was transformed.

[Eira Seren]

Looking at the context in BR's talk with Bran and one of the reasons i started this thread was i thing BR was subtly using the term more loosly. It gave me the sense that those who Bran called the Singers (COTF) aren't the "only" singers.Singers are "those who sing" have a song and thus isn't limited to the little green tree huggers.

This is the difference with V6 and all Skinchangers in comparison to the Stark kids the animals V6 and others Skinchange are animals they take by force.They ride them over and over until their will is broken. You Bran did the same with Hodor,who fought and fought until he was broken in by Bran. There is a quote when Bran in Summer went looking for the village in ADWD you could hear Summer's own voice and he reffered to Bran as "the boy who shared his skin".V6 and others don't form that kind of bond.

That's interesting......anyone know of that?

I think Sansa denied that aspect of herself but i think there's hope for her.I kinda thought the "winged wolf" applied to her of Jon and not Bran.

I get the sense that if Bran truly listens he could eventually get their speech that knowledge maybe on the edge of revealing itself. You revelation on the bones got me thinking these little buggers might be just concerned with collecting the songs and that's it. As long as the songs survive their good with that.

It's a fair insight. It also means that the perception of the Singers as friendly tree huggers goes right down the drain, as does the perception of the Singers as trying to defeat humans (or their potential raising of the wights) as a projection of First Men/Andal fears.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting thread, it was quite a read.. Thank you for pointing it out, Alia ;)

All the quotes about singing and "song" made me think about this quote from Varys:

“The little birds sing a grievous song today,”

I thought about this after reading about how the ravens could speak the language of the Children. Ravens are birds, of course. Perhaps birds are still singing the song? (Not that Varys would know anything about it, but a little nod from GRRM, perhaps?)

Also interesting (though the quote has been mentioned already, I think)

Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark.

From the app, there's this quote:

The Broken Arm is a long spur of land in Dorne that stretches into the narrow sea; beyond it are the Stepstones . Legend says that, before it was broken, the Arm was a land bridge connecting Westeros and Essos , but that the Children of the Forest called down the waters in an attempt to stem the flow of First Men into Westeros from Essos.

"Called down the waters" reminds me strongly of the magic of the Rhoynar..

Don't really know what to make of it, though.

For what it's worth, I doubt that Summerhal had anything to do with dragons singing. Summerhal might have been an attempt to wake the dragons from eggs (Aegon V would have eggs, his own, from Aemon, which most likely did not go to the Wall with him, and perhaps the eggs from his other siblings), inspired by prophecy. Summerhal went up in flames, so it seems that however, and whatever Aegon tried, fire was involved.

Though I also doubt that skinchanging/warging is involved with singing (from the quotes of the wolves singing to the moon etc.), being able to warg or skinchange might make it easier to understand the songs.

If anything, the preview family tree of House Stark might be a hint for this.

The Starks (Bran, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, Jon) descent from the Blackwoods (Melantha Blackwood, married to Willam Stark, the grandfather of Lord Rickard). Brynden Rivers, son of a Blackwood, seems to be able to understand the songs, and is a skinchanger besides. Is it the Blackwood blood that is at play here?

Lyanna Stark was said to have been "half a horse herself". Was she just good at horse riding, or was there some skinchanging going on? Whether Lyanna was aware of it, or it happened without her realising it, would be a completely separate question.

The dragon dreams seem to be something completely separate from the song, though, I think. The dragon dreams are dreams about dragons.. often meaning Targaryens. Bloodraven already said that "from time to time" a Targaryen displayed the gift...

Could the Starks only from "time to time" have displayed their warging gift? Or are the Stark children now all wargs because the magic seems to be getting stronger, thus awakening powers inside of them that their parents/grandparents might not have known existed in the blood line?

With the magic making the warging powers in the Stark children stronger, and the warging making it easier to understand the songs of old, that might explain why the Stark children are all capable of understanding it as least in part?

And Bran, with his additional gift of greenseeing, would then perhaps even be better in it, and thus perhaps be capable not all too long from now (in story speaking) to understand the songs..

I am hoping you guys find this useful in some way :)

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting thread, it was quite a read.. Thank you for pointing it out, Alia ;)

All the quotes about singing and "song" made me think about this quote from Varys:

I thought about this after reading about how the ravens could speak the language of the Children. Ravens are birds, of course. Perhaps birds are still singing the song? (Not that Varys would know anything about it, but a little nod from GRRM, perhaps?)

Also interesting (though the quote has been mentioned already, I think)

From the app, there's this quote:

"Called down the waters" reminds me strongly of the magic of the Rhoynar..

Don't really know what to make of it, though.

For what it's worth, I doubt that Summerhal had anything to do with dragons singing. Summerhal might have been an attempt to wake the dragons from eggs (Aegon V would have eggs, his own, from Aemon, which most likely did not go to the Wall with him, and perhaps the eggs from his other siblings), inspired by prophecy. Summerhal went up in flames, so it seems that however, and whatever Aegon tried, fire was involved.

Though I also doubt that skinchanging/warging is involved with singing (from the quotes of the wolves singing to the moon etc.), being able to warg or skinchange might make it easier to understand the songs.

If anything, the preview family tree of House Stark might be a hint for this.

The Starks (Bran, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, Jon) descent from the Blackwoods (Melantha Blackwood, married to Willam Stark, the grandfather of Lord Rickard). Brynden Rivers, son of a Blackwood, seems to be able to understand the songs, and is a skinchanger besides. Is it the Blackwood blood that is at play here?

Lyanna Stark was said to have been "half a horse herself". Was she just good at horse riding, or was there some skinchanging going on? Whether Lyanna was aware of it, or it happened without her realising it, would be a completely separate question.

The dragon dreams seem to be something completely separate from the song, though, I think. The dragon dreams are dreams about dragons.. often meaning Targaryens. Bloodraven already said that "from time to time" a Targaryen displayed the gift...

Could the Starks only from "time to time" have displayed their warging gift? Or are the Stark children now all wargs because the magic seems to be getting stronger, thus awakening powers inside of them that their parents/grandparents might not have known existed in the blood line?

With the magic making the warging powers in the Stark children stronger, and the warging making it easier to understand the songs of old, that might explain why the Stark children are all capable of understanding it as least in part?

And Bran, with his additional gift of greenseeing, would then perhaps even be better in it, and thus perhaps be capable not all too long from now (in story speaking) to understand the songs..

I am hoping you guys find this useful in some way :)

Glad you enjoyed it, and really good call outs, especially about warging allowing one to understand the songs.

[wolfmaid7]

It's a fair insight. It also means that the perception of the Singers as friendly tree huggers goes right down the drain, as does the perception of the Singers as trying to defeat humans (or their potential raising of the wights) as a projection of First Men/Andal fears.

Now aint that a scary thought.Yeah i think its deeper than that which makes sense that they wouldn't really be into any individual outcome unless they have something major to contribute to the net with regards to a song.

Interesting thread, it was quite a read.. Thank you for pointing it out, Alia ;)

All the quotes about singing and "song" made me think about this quote from Varys:

I thought about this after reading about how the ravens could speak the language of the Children. Ravens are birds, of course. Perhaps birds are still singing the song? (Not that Varys would know anything about it, but a little nod from GRRM, perhaps?)

Also interesting (though the quote has been mentioned already, I think)

From the app, there's this quote:

"Called down the waters" reminds me strongly of the magic of the Rhoynar..

Don't really know what to make of it, though.

For what it's worth, I doubt that Summerhal had anything to do with dragons singing. Summerhal might have been an attempt to wake the dragons from eggs (Aegon V would have eggs, his own, from Aemon, which most likely did not go to the Wall with him, and perhaps the eggs from his other siblings), inspired by prophecy. Summerhal went up in flames, so it seems that however, and whatever Aegon tried, fire was involved.

Though I also doubt that skinchanging/warging is involved with singing (from the quotes of the wolves singing to the moon etc.), being able to warg or skinchange might make it easier to understand the songs.

If anything, the preview family tree of House Stark might be a hint for this.

The Starks (Bran, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, Jon) descent from the Blackwoods (Melantha Blackwood, married to Willam Stark, the grandfather of Lord Rickard). Brynden Rivers, son of a Blackwood, seems to be able to understand the songs, and is a skinchanger besides. Is it the Blackwood blood that is at play here?

Lyanna Stark was said to have been "half a horse herself". Was she just good at horse riding, or was there some skinchanging going on? Whether Lyanna was aware of it, or it happened without her realising it, would be a completely separate question.

The dragon dreams seem to be something completely separate from the song, though, I think. The dragon dreams are dreams about dragons.. often meaning Targaryens. Bloodraven already said that "from time to time" a Targaryen displayed the gift...

Could the Starks only from "time to time" have displayed their warging gift? Or are the Stark children now all wargs because the magic seems to be getting stronger, thus awakening powers inside of them that their parents/grandparents might not have known existed in the blood line?

With the magic making the warging powers in the Stark children stronger, and the warging making it easier to understand the songs of old, that might explain why the Stark children are all capable of understanding it as least in part?

And Bran, with his additional gift of greenseeing, would then perhaps even be better in it, and thus perhaps be capable not all too long from now (in story speaking) to understand the songs..

I am hoping you guys find this useful in some way :)

First welcome to the thread and let me clarify a bit because i think there's a misunderstanding ... Warging or skinchanging physically doesn't have anything to do with the magical song that is factually made known to us by regular Skinchangers like V6. They have the Skinchanging in the bloodline which makes it possible for them to Skinchange animals.The difference is that the animals Skinchanged by the likes of Varrymyr and Orell don't have a song( of their own will share a note with another)...They are just garden variety animals.The Direwolves and the Dragons are different because they share a song with a person."Every song has a balance"(Blood raven),and they are part of songs that share a note. They have the ability to "choose" who will share their song with because that other half exists to resonate that particualr song as well.

So i agree that skinchanging is a means to understand the Song between those that have one.The perfect example is in Jon and Ghost when Jon first found him.Ghost made a sound only "he" Jon could hear.This was before any Warging, but he called to his other half because he would have been left behind for sure.I wan't to emphasize this a bit more because i think your thinking that i'm saying Songs have to do with being able to skinchange.Not at all i agree with the latter as indicated in the examples with Jon and Bran the song magical bond that connects is already existing its just the actuall Skinchanging is a means to bridge the language barriers.

Which brings back to Summerhall and the Dragons what we were throwing around based on Drogon's choosing of Dany and the song he played for her is also magical its a way to choose your rider.We know that the Targs tried to hatch the Dragons using fire so they most likley heard the songs as well,but due to some sketchy intentions the singing became discord and the fire used to hatch them got out of control.

To sum:

Skinchanging is not contingent on the Song,but not all animals and their controllers have a shared note.I hope that makes sense.

The MMD is a nice one and there is more to that which i really want to explore because it reminds me of Leaf warning Bran about calling Ned back from Death and i'm seeing how the Wights come into play...Death has a Song if you play the bones just right.

I also love the comparison with the COTF and the Rhyoners and i think that is a great examples on how magical songs can cause "s**t to happen.