does ASOIAF really belong in the fantasy genre?

[taem]

No. Just no.

Don't care about Jon's parentage in this situation, since it's stupid to apply it anyway. Cersei's no Lyanna and that should be obvious. And it doesn't matter that she wasn't the one who tried to kill Bran, the fact that she was a suspect is enough. And perhaps you missed the part about her brother being the Kingslayer? You know, Jaime Lannister, the same guy that Ned found on the Iron Throne with Aerys' blood on his sword? There's no guarantee that Robert would be able to keep ANYONE SAFE! And there wasn't, because Cersei had him poisoned.

So no. Just no.

No a million times.

Cersei didn't have Robert poisoned. She gave him strongwine. Which he was free to drink or not drink. She had no idea if the hunt would find a boar. She had no way of making sure Robert would miss his spear thrust, or that the boar would gore him fatally even if she could have affected his spear thrust by sabotaging his spear or something.

And Jaime himself did not dare raise a hand to Ned when he was in a rage over Tyrion's abduction. He tried to bait Ned into dueling him, and Ned coolly refused to oblige him. And for killing a few of Ned's men, Jaime had to flee KL.

Ned was in no danger, until Robert died. The confrontation didn't change this at all, it did not put him at greater risk, it did not result in any actions against him. So why was it so stupid to confront Cersei?

Edit to add this, Lyanna and Cersei are both women who cheated on Robert. Lyanna was his fiancee, she ran off with Rhaegar. Cersei was his wife, she slept with Jaime. Both women bore children Robert would want to kill, if he knew. Ned cannot help but see the parallels.

[ground_control]

Since so many posters insist ASOIAF can’t be anything but fantasy simply because it contains fantasy elements, let me ask you this: where does Hamlet belong to then?

Hamlet is Literature (or Classics). ASOIAF is Fantasy. They can't be in more than one category because nobody who runs a book store wants to stock extra copies of the same book in more than one part of the store.

[Kojiro]

Cersei didn't have Robert poisoned. She gave him strongwine. Which he was free to drink or not drink. She had no idea if the hunt would find a boar. She had no way of making sure Robert would miss his spear thrust, or that the boar would gore him fatally even if she could have affected his spear thrust by sabotaging his spear or something.

Which is a poisoning all the same. The idea was to arrange a hunting accident by having him so sodding drunk, which happened. As Varys put it, if the boar didn't get him, he would have fallen off his horse. Later books Cersei even admits the idea was to have him killed.

And Jaime himself did not dare raise a hand to Ned when he was in a rage over Tyrion's abduction. He tried to bait Ned into dueling him, and Ned coolly refused to oblige him. And for killing a few of Ned's men, Jaime had to flee KL.

Ned was in no danger, until Robert died. The confrontation didn't change this at all, it did not put him at greater risk, it did not result in any actions against him. So why was it so stupid to confront Cersei?

Like brother like sister is the point, which is proved. Either you're so astronomically thick or you're being deliberately obtuse. The Lannisters are lions and lions eat herd animals like deer. Robert couldn't prevent any danger.

[sj4iy]

Hmm. I disagree there. The game of thrones is prelude to the song of ice (winter) and fire (dragons), and neither Winter nor dragons have even reached Westeros. They remain beyond the wall, or across the sea. There are portents -- the shadow magic that kills Renly, the undying Beric. But they remain portents. This is why I have said in this thread, ASOIAF is not ASOIAF yet.

Be that as it may, whatever quantity you assign to the fantasy portion of ASOIAF, you seem to be implicitly agreeing that the mere fact of dragons or whatever without more isn't what makes a book a fantasy, it's what the book is about. Is that a fair assessment?

Uh, no, that's not what I said at all.

I said that it's very clearly fantasy with some elements not often seen in fantasy, making it less stereotypical than most fantasy.

Some books don't "fit" into any one genre...but that's not the case here. If the story ONLY had dragons and nothing else? Maybe you could make an argument...but it has:

1. Dragons

2. Magic trees

3. Forest nymphs

4. Revenants, good and evil

5. Prophecies that come true

6. Visions that come true

7. Dreams that come true

8. People with the ability to not burn much

9. People with the ability to ride inside animals

10. Giants

11. A huge Wall of never melting Ice

...need I go on? I mean, it's not like Martin downplayed the fantasy elements. They are right in your face from the very beginning.

It's fantasy, and really, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Darth Richard II]

You know, even if you took out all the "fantastic elements", it would still be fanrtasy, because westeros isn't a real fucking place.

[Kojiro]

You know, even if you took out all the "fantastic elements", it would still be fanrtasy, because westeros isn't a real fucking place.

I actually mentioned that a long time ago.

[Gertrude]

You're ignoring the other part of my reply on this point. The confrontation in and of itself posed no danger to Ned. Does Cersei move against Ned because he confronted her? No.

Someone ignoring a point made in this thread? That never happens :rolleyes:

No, this part is true. She does move once she knows Robert is dying and Ned is making a move to flee. No, Ned is not stupid because he doesn't forsee the future (Robert dead, thus his protection gone). He is short-sighted because he doesn't account for the worst-case scenario, that scenario being Cersei being frightened enough to lash out. Even if we know Cersei chastises Jaime for Bran, Ned doesn't know that. What he suspects before the confrontation is the the Lannister twins have tried to kill his son in his own home to keep this secret. After the confrontation he knows it and still doesn't prepare well enough. Ned knows that not everyone is to be trusted and sometimes they do bad things, but he still expects there to be some sort of baseline - a line people won't cross. His estimation of where that baseline is for people is way, way off.

You keep repeating that Ned is motivated by his compassion for the children because of his past with Jon and Lyanna - who is even contesting that? You say it over and over like it's a magical talisman and only you have unlocked the secrets of Ned's true character and it's not even relevant. This whole argument, this whole thread is kinda pointless because none of us are going to change their minds and we are all just going to go on thinking 'this guy just doesn't get it.

[sj4iy]

You know, even if you took out all the "fantastic elements", it would still be fanrtasy, because westeros isn't a real fucking place.

That's not necessarily fantasy. That's just fiction. Every other genre in fiction can have a made-up place and not be fantasy.

[Diziet]

We're still at this? Or is this supposed to be a regular ASOIAF discussion thread deviously disguised by a bullshit title to hide it in here?

[taem]

Uh, no, that's not what I said at all.

I said that it's very clearly fantasy with some elements not often seen in fantasy, making it less stereotypical than most fantasy...

I'm not talking about ASOIAF in particular. I asked if you think a book you haven't read yet, but you know there are dragons in it, whether you would declare that fantasy, without having read it. Your reply spoke to the extent of the fantasy in ASOIAF so it seemed like you were saying it's a question of degree.

Like brother like sister is the point, which is proved. Either you're so astronomically thick or you're being deliberately obtuse. The Lannisters are lions and lions eat herd animals like deer.

Like Tyrion Lannister, who is so kind to Jon Snow and Sansa Stark? Who sought to use his position as Hand to bring justice to KL? Who tried to teach Joffrey to be a better man?

Or Jaime, whose driving purpose now is to make good on his promise to a dead Catelyn and see Sansa safe? Who ignores his Lannister sister's pleas to join Brienne? The one who slew Aerys and made himself a figure of infamy for all time because Aerys planned to burn down all of King's Landing and everyone in it?

Or even Cersei, as she was during these events in question. She never wanted to hurt Bran and wasn't the one who did. She never acts against Ned until he tries to take away Joffrey's crown. Even after Robert dies, Littlefinger comes to Ned and says -- "shake hands with Cersei and go home to Winterfell, and let Joffrey be king"; where do you think Littlefinger got that idea? Ned could have taken that deal. Even after he denounces Joffrey as illegitimate, Cersei would let Ned take the Black and his daughters would be safe, and she had every intention of honoring that deal, it was Joffrey who broke it. She could have demanded that Ned agree to his own execution as the price of his daughters' safety, and he would have taken it. But she didn't seek his death. She would have let him live.

So, I find the Lannisters to be more complicated than you do.

Robert couldn't prevent any danger.

While he was alive he did. So I don't know what your basis for that is. Why doesn't Cersei simply move against Ned when he confronts her? She has more soldiers, she could have. It would have been far surer than her strongwine scheme. Why didn't Jaime take Ned hostage to get his brother back? Or just kill him if he was that angry.

[Darth Richard II]

That's not necessarily fantasy. That's just fiction. Every other genre in fiction can have a made-up place and not be fantasy.

Made up place != made up PLANET, with FICTION continents.

[Kojiro]

While he was alive he did. So I don't know what your basis for that is. Why doesn't Cersei simply move against Ned when he confronts her? She has more soldiers, she could have. It would have been far surer than her strongwine scheme. Why didn't Jaime take Ned hostage to get his brother back? Or just kill him if he was that angry.

RAAAAAHHH!!!

That's the whole POINT! She could have. It could very much have happened. Gertrudis gets it. I know how the Lannisters actually are, but Ned doesn't see that. All he sees is Kingslayer and a murder attempt on his son. He should know enough to prepare for the WORST CASE SCENARIO. Which he failed to do, despite every VISIBLE reason that he probably should.

[Darth Richard II]

Kojiro, you're obviously being trolled here. No way is anyone in real life actually this stupid.

[Kojiro]

Kojiro, you're obviously being trolled here. No way is anyone in real life actually this stupid.

Hopefully.

[Zorral]

So its science fiction then?

A lot of this is from Ann McCaffrey's Pern series, including the dragons and whipping cycles of destruction by other planetary influences, after long periods of stability, that can be fought only by dragon fire. It too modeled a feudal society -- on another planet, settled centuries ago by space going humans, who have forgotten their origins, and what wasn't exactly forgotten got transmuted into mythology.

Both sf and f, in other words. But, by golly, Pern set off the passion for dragons, which is why, dragons, front and center, for ASOIAF, one way or another direction.

[Kojiro]

A lot of this is from Ann McCaffrey's Pern series, including the dragons and whipping cycles of destruction by other planetary influences, after long periods of stability, that can be fought only by dragon fire. It too modeled a feudal society -- on another planet, settled centuries ago by space going humans, who have forgotten their origins, and what wasn't exactly forgotten got transmuted into mythology.

Both sf and f, in other words. But, by golly, Pern set off the passion for dragons, which is why, dragons, front and center, for ASOIAF, one way or another direction.

Which puzzles me... why hasn't there been a Riders of Pern movie yet?

[The Evil Queen]

Which puzzles me... why hasn't there been a Riders of Pern movie yet?

Plenty of people have tried to pick it up, I can't even count how many times Anne stated that a show or movie was in the works, but then something happened every time. Now Todd and his sister own Pern and I remember he said something about the idea still being looked at, but, well. Fantasy books to screen often fail to get past the consideration stages :(

eta I don't know why I put a sad face really, after LotR I don't really want any of my faves to go on the screen.

[taem]

RAAAAAHHH!!!

That's the whole POINT! She could have. It could very much have happened. Gertrudis gets it. I know how the Lannisters actually are, but Ned doesn't see that. All he sees is Kingslayer and a murder attempt on his son. He should know enough to prepare for the WORST CASE SCENARIO. Which he failed to do, despite every VISIBLE reason that he probably should.

I'm actually saying she couldn't have, or more accurately, wouldn't have, and Ned knew that. Here is that sentence again: "Why doesn't Cersei simply move against Ned when he confronts her? She has more soldiers, she could have." In other words she has the tools she needs to make that move, it's the surest path to accomplishing her goals, but she doesn't. Why not?

Well how would Robert react? The man who was father to him, Arryn, dies; the man who is brother to him replaces Arryn, begins asking questions about how Arryn died, and the next thing you know Lannister soldiers under Cersei's command are breaking down his door and murder him. It would have to be that direct wouldn't it? She used poison on Arryn, but Ned knows that, that's not going to work. So a frontal assault of some sort.

What happens next? Robert may not be a clever fellow but he is king. If he sets his mind to getting answers, he will have them. And Ned is not the only one knows. It was Varys and Littlefinger who led him by the nose to the truth. If Robert says to Littlefinger, whose bread and butter is embezzling from the royal purse, "you know everything, tell me what happened or go back to your hut. Or maybe I'll just kill you"? Killing Ned effectively puts Cersei in the same place she would be if she allowed Ned to tell Robert the truth, the only difference is Ned would be dead, and his death isn't something she ever wanted. And small comfort as she heads to the chopping block. Edit to add, Killing Ned in fact might put Cersei in a worse place. If Cersei says to Robert, "it's not true. You've been stumbling into my bed and raping me for 16 years, how could they not be your children?" But if she kills Ned and Robert finds out what Ned thought, that's basically a confession.

You know what would have changed this equation, and allowed Cersei to send soldiers to kill Ned? If he;d done what you say is the smart move and kidnap Myrcella or Tommen. "Oh Robert he went mad! His son had an accident, and he blamed Lannisters for it. His wife kidnapped my brother, and he kidnapped our children and was threatening to hurt them!" I mean it's well known Ned doesn't like Lannisters.

It's Robert she has to kill, not Ned. So Ned thought himself safe, and he was right.

In fact, if it weren't for the fact that Robert made Ned Protector and Regent, it's entirely possible Cersei just ignores him. Ned told Stannis what he knows, Stannis told the world, no one cared. It's not like there are DNA tests. If Ned's not Regent Protector, with the power to order Cersei and Joffrey taken in to custody, Cersei could very well simply laugh at him and ignore him. This goes back to the mother dire wolf, and the foretelling of Ned's doom -- the stag and direwolf will kill each other. Not the lion. Ned asked too many questions and led Cersei to murder Robert; Robert gave Ned too much power and gave Cersei no choice but to eliminate Ned.

[polishgenius]

This topic is literally flawless. Seriously. Perfect in every way.

[Kojiro]

So Ned thought himself safe, and he was right.

No. The ending of the book proved that wrong.

Honestly, if having a backup plan for worst case scenarios was so unreasonable, why does anyone ever form a contingency? Why don't we just ride cars without seatbelts or bicycles without helmets? It doesn't matter if Ned thought Cersei would seize the castle by force or not, he should still be prepared for it. The available, circumstantial evidence suggested she might be capable of anything sinister and he should have known better that that meant it would be dangerous to confront her. He also should have suspected that it was possible for her to murder her own husband based on this. It was frankly negligent to keep his children in the city and it was foolhardy to challenge her right away. No matter how hard you try to justify his naivete, it still won't make him any less of a fool for failing to build a safety net or strategy.

And trusting Littlefinger with the "bought" City Watch at the last moment isn't going to make that any less stupid either. He should have never even considered that folly at all.

Honestly, I hope you are just a troll, because defending obviously bad ideas as if they were "good" ideas is just... just... just... I'm not sure if there's a word to describe how stupid it is.