does ASOIAF really belong in the fantasy genre?

[polishgenius]

really? I mean magic in asoiaf is not that present in the first place and when it is there, then most of the time it is explained as tricks or science, like Mel's stuff with the powders, wildfire. Then the glamours..the fraud they are. They are more or less psychological. Just a bit enhanced from reality. The Others are fantasy so far. But I am sure we get an explanation that they are some biological race or whatever and not just magic.

Plus, we don't know if these religious things like prophecies are real. So far we have no pov where we see them and can be sure that they aren't just mad dreams or hallucinations.

I am a realist. I like going to extremes explaining these magic things and taking the magic away from them. That is why I like asoiaf in the first place.

What about the dragons?

And the main family of characters having a psychic connection to their pet wolves. Of these, one is a wizard with prophetic dreams (of which at least part have come true) who can time-travel via tree, one has a mate who can literally change his face and body (and she may be learning that trick too) and one is almost certainly currently dead and occupying his wolf full-time.

There's a thousand-feet tall wall of ice to keep out the Others and their hordes of ice-zombies, there's a lady who gives birth to shadow-babies and causes death via sacrificial leech, there's decade-long seasons (possibly caused by the everlasting mystic struggle between a god of fire and a god of ice), and there are fucking dragons.

If you like rationalising things that's cool by me, but you're definitely twisting things to suit your preferred view here.

I've never understood this idea that aSoIaF is particularly low-magic anyway. Sure, compared to a Malazan or a Mistborn it is, but there are plenty out there with substantially less magical involvement both direct and indirect, and I honestly don't think it has all that much less than The Lord of the Rings when it comes right down to it.

[Spockydog]

No. I never at any point in this thread assert that ASOIAF is not fantasy.

o.O

[blasted_saber]

uhhhh.......what?

GRRM's magic isnt explained at all.

Whats the explanation for the seasons? The Wall? The Others? The Wights? Red Priests abilities (resurrection, shadow babies etc)? Faceless Men? Wargs? Weirwood Trees?Almost none of GRRMs magic is explained.

I'd say it is a very minimalistic or rather "scientifically explained" fantasy. Most of the fantasy elements are presented so logical and scientific that they seem not so extremely fantasy like.

You know in classic fantasy it is just a guy with a wand and boom and there is magic. GRRM's magic is very limited and most of the time explained.

Not always though.

So I'd say it is an explained fantasy or scientific fantasy.

[Metopheles]

What about the dragons?

And the main family of characters having a psychic connection to their pet wolves. Of these, one is a wizard with prophetic dreams (of which at least part have come true) who can time-travel via tree, one has a mate who can literally change his face and body (and she may be learning that trick too) and one is almost certainly currently dead and occupying his wolf full-time.

There's a thousand-feet tall wall of ice to keep out the Others and their hordes of ice-zombies, there's a lady who gives birth to shadow-babies and causes death via sacrificial leech, there's decade-long seasons (possibly caused by the everlasting mystic struggle between a god of fire and a god of ice), and there are fucking dragons.

If you like rationalising things that's cool by me, but you're definitely twisting things to suit your preferred view here.

I've never understood this idea that aSoIaF is particularly low-magic anyway. Sure, compared to a Malazan or a Mistborn it is, but there are plenty out there with substantially less magical involvement both direct and indirect, and I honestly don't think it has all that much less than The Lord of the Rings when it comes right down to it.

should I even respond to this? Seems to me more a personal attack than a counter argument.

[polishgenius]

Seems to me more a personal attack than a counter argument.

:dunno:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is a zombie attack in the prologue of the first book, to the members of an organization in care of a big magical ice wall.

[Metopheles]

uhhhh.......what?

GRRM's magic isnt explained at all.

Whats the explanation for the seasons? The Wall? The Others? The Wights? Red Priests abilities (resurrection, shadow babies etc)? Faceless Men? Wargs? Weirwood Trees?Almost none of GRRMs magic is explained.

The seasons are totally normal. Just because our dear little spherical rock happens to have 99.99% accurate seasons doesn't mean that this is the norm.

If the story in the series is to be believed, that there were two moons, then you have your answer. This is basic astronomy and physics.

We know too few about the Wall as that I could give you an answer here.

The Other stuff seems like magic for now, but here we know too few details about them. This is not earth, who knows what biological life forms are possible there. Don't go by earth standards. Just because we don't have it, doesn't make it impossible.

The resurrection is magic.

the rest too.

I said most, not all.

[Kojiro]

Robert dies. That changes everything. Ned had been waiting for Robert to come back, but when Robert comes back from the hunt, mortally wounded, then it's a mad scramble.

Oi.... You really don't get my point at all. Ned was making numerous mistakes since he set foot in King's Landing as Hand. While Miodrag says he saw everyone for who they were, he didn't act with that awareness. He spoke with Varys and Littlefinger quite regularly about the politics taking place and his own investigation of Jon Arryn's death and the Lannister brats. He should not have done this. At all. While it would have been almost impossible to keep Varys from learning about it anyway (secret passages with accoustic architectural tricks, naturally), Littlefinger he could have at least kept away farther than arm's reach. He had his sworn men moving around too obviously as well (as pointed out to him by Varys). Ned had all the subtlety of a wounded elephant in a department store.

Now, even if we limit ourselves to that small time frame while Robert's out hunting, Ned completely blows it by meeting with Cersei. Completely BLOWS IT! Instead of meeting with her, he should have gotten (as suggested by other posters) his kids OUT OF THERE and set up events where he could get custody of at least one of the Lannister kids. Perhaps have Myrcella invited over to play a game with Sansa or something. Robert wasn't dead yet, so the time to set things up was optimal. Acting with subtlety is not dishonorable (otherwise feints in melee would be frowned upon). But no, Ned just brazenly flaunts what he knows and expects everything to work out.

Sufficed to say, Ned acted stupidly.

[Metopheles]

On earth people believed they fought and killed witches, but that didn't make them witches or demons.

[polishgenius]

Metopheles, what you're ignoring, aside from the fact that there's a lot less evidence for any scientific basis for these things than for magical, within the series, is that GRRM has outright stated (as has been pointed out in this topic on more than one occasion) that it's magic.

Anyway you should, if you haven't already, read the Helliconia Cycle by Brian Aldiss. That'll be right up your alley I reckon

[blasted_saber]

So its science fiction then?

The seasons are totally normal. Just because our dear little spherical rock happens to have 99.99% accurate seasons doesn't mean that this is the norm.

If the story in the series is to be believed, that there were two moons, then you have your answer. This is basic astronomy and physics.

We know too few about the Wall as that I could give you an answer here.

The Other stuff seems like magic for now, but here we know too few details about them. This is not earth, who knows what biological life forms are possible there. Don't go by earth standards. Just because we don't have it, doesn't make it impossible.

The resurrection is magic.

the rest too.

I said most, not all.

[Kojiro]

The seasons are totally normal. Just because our dear little spherical rock happens to have 99.99% accurate seasons doesn't mean that this is the norm.

If the story in the series is to be believed, that there were two moons, then you have your answer. This is basic astronomy and physics.

Martin is on record stating that the seasons would have a fantasy explanation, not a sci-fi explanation.

[sj4iy]

Personally, I think that people are trying to elevate the status of ASoIaF by pretending it's something that it's not. It may have elements of other genres in it, like medieval historical fiction), but it very clearly has fantastical elements that don't exist in the natural world and have no explanation for being. Personally, I don't see how it could be any other genre BUT fantasy...which one would it fit into if it weren't?

[Howdyphillip]

There is a zombie attack in the prologue of the first book, to the members of an organization in care of a big magical ice wall.

[ geekout ] Get your undead facts straight ! The Others are clearly not zombies as they retain bits of their memories of their lives and act accordingly They more closely resemble ghouls. The White Walkers themselves have more in characteristic with Lichs. [ /geekout ].

(I would not know this if I wasn't familiar with fantasy)

[Errant Bard]

Eh, maybe I'm just strange, but I don't really go for 'what if?' scenarios.

"What if ASoIaF had no dragons or fantasy elements in it?"

"Then it would be medieval historical fiction."

Yes, so considering what the OP has been posting, it's only fitting to have similar BS in this very thread, heh?

[Metopheles]

Martin is on record stating that the seasons would have a fantasy explanation, not a sci-fi explanation.

What are you all bashing against me? haha

I simply pointed out that it is well possible to explain these things.

It is of course fantasy, but not your classical one. I say it is something other.

In my definition fantasy is that you get something presented and it is as it is, no questions, no answers. boom. Story.

To fit in that description, grrm has delivered way too many explanations and logic to his magic and fantasy elements.

Plus the fact that people inside the story are able to say that there is no such thing as magic says something.

I may not have read or seen the interview where grrm said that it is fantasy, but I believe you that he said it. If I were him I would say the same. But we have to admit that his story really isn't one that deserves to be labelled as just some fantasy.

I didn't understand that this sole thread was supposed to oppose the OP.

[Miodrag]

Since so many posters insist ASOIAF can’t be anything but fantasy simply because it contains fantasy elements, let me ask you this: where does Hamlet belong to then? With the ghost that triggers the story, is it ridiculous to consider Hamlet as anything other than fantasy?

What about The Master and Margarita? In that novel, there is probably more supernatural elements than in ASOIAF percentage wise. Aside from the first one, every single chapter contains demons, witches, other dimensions and whatnot. Is Bulgakov’s novel therefore a fantasy and nothing but fantasy?

And so on. There are numerous novels with as many fantasy elements as ASOIAF, that are never included in the fantasy genre. So I really don’t get what’s so strange in trying to determine how typical of the genre ASOIAF truly is. As far as I can tell, nobody’s saying it isn’t fantasy. Of course it is. Not because of the supernatural elements, but even more so because the author himself says it’s fantasy. No one in their right mind would ever deny that. But, from where I stand, it’s completely legitimate to ask how does ASOIAF fit into other genres. It’s not as if someone’s trying to steal ASOIAF from fantasy. Nobody is, and besides, it’d be impossible. But, there is a case to be made that ASOIAF is infinitely more similar and comparable to realistic literature, than to Harry Potter or David Gemmell.

And I really don't think it's about scientific explanations. Again, supernatural elements in The Master and Margarita (or in Faust, for that matter), are never explained, but those novels are still not considered fantasies.

EDIT TO EXPLAIN: Even the first chapter of The Master and Margarita contains a supernatural being, but at the time he's not revealed as such, which is why I excluded it as a special case.

[Metopheles]

Would it be possible inside the universe of asoiaf to write a book that is not fantasy...if the whole setting is fantasy by our standards?

[Miodrag]

Personally, I think that people are trying to elevate the status of ASoIaF by pretending it's something that it's not. It may have elements of other genres in it, like medieval historical fiction), but it very clearly has fantastical elements that don't exist in the natural world and have no explanation for being. Personally, I don't see how it could be any other genre BUT fantasy...which one would it fit into if it weren't?

No, that's really not the case. The status of ASOIAF doesn't have to be elevated. Whether it's pure fantasy or something more, it's great literature, period. Opposite to TV show that is, in truth, a disappointing achievement by any standard, and it's going to stay that way even if some people are trying to downgrade the status of the source material. Of course, not that I expect someone who thinks TV Sandor is more sympathetic and better developed than book Sandor to agree with me.

[Metopheles]

Just a side question:

Would you consider Nausicäa fantasy or science fiction or what? Because it looks at first like fantasy, but it is actually scientifically explained...in a way. It shows a scenario on how the world might end up like. Yet it also has strong things with fantasy like prophecies.