America's Gun Culture - What can we do?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Yep, of course. Although a successful attempt at self defence with a gun does not mean that that gun was actually needed.

Nor does a successful murder or suicide with a gun mean that that gun was actually needed.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Yes. If I call 911, the average time for police to arrive is 10 minutes. I could be dead, by the time they arrive.

It seems to me that provoking a confrontation with a potentially armed intruder is much more likely to result in injury or death than getting the police on the scene as soon as possible.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Yep, of course. Although a successful attempt at self defence with a gun does not mean that that gun was actually needed.

Kinda my point, I don't think you are going to get any accurate statistics on when having a gun results in successful self defense. Certainly not by only including events that end in a death.

[Seli]

Nor does a successful murder or suicide with a gun mean that that gun was actually needed.

Actually statistically speaking it does seem to mean that, to a large degree. ie in the absence of that gun a large proportion of those murders and suicides would not have happened.

[lupis42]

Gun deaths due to legitimate self-defence are apparently relatively rare, and could almost be ignored (230 deaths compared to 8275 murders 1), suicides of course make up the majority of gun deaths.

No disagreement.

What then becomes important is that murders involving guns seem to be in addition to a baseline murder level. Apparently both in international comparisons between western nations and within the USA (see for example table 2 in http://www.iansa.org/system/files/Risks%20and%20Benefits%20of%20a%20Gun%20in%20the%20Home%202011.pdf for an example of the latter).*

This requires cherry picking the countries of study. If one includes brown people, middle eastern people, asian people, south american people, etc. the correlation vanishes. I'm short on time at the moment but will try to find the data linked in earlier versions of this thread later.

Similarly in suicides gun suicides are to a large extent additional to a base suicide level, which is contributed to ease of access, immediacy and success rate.

Suicides are dramatically more effected by the availability of firearms, because firearms give attempted suicides a far far higher success rate than other methods.

However, suicides are not impacted substantially by most of the forms of gun control in the US, which focus on mechanical properties of firearms, such as capacity and action type.

*eta: statistics are of course complicated by the types of guns common in countries, hunting style weapons such as shotguns and rifles are if I recall correctly less likely to be used in murders than hand-guns.

They're also less likely to be used in murders than blunt objects. Yet they remain major targets for gun control proponents. Which makes sense if reducing murders isn't the goal. Which brings me back to this:

"It is, in other words, a measure that only makes sense to use if the fact that a gun was the means is the important thing, not the death."

Using gun deaths is an upfront indicator that the study is an attempt to persuade people that gun control works, rather than an attempt to find out whether gun control works or not.

[Seli]

Kinda my point, I don't think you are going to get any accurate statistics on when having a gun results in successful self defense. Certainly not by only including events that end in a death.

It is an indicator, for whatever it is worth.

Apparently in the US guns are used* in self defence in approximately 1% of violent crimes, and at a similar rate during property crimes when people are present. Compared to other means of self defence (vocal, other weapons, attitude) in 23% or 4% respectively. Which, considering the prevalence of guns in the US seems sanely low. There does not seem to be an indication in my source how many of those defences were successful, but I don't see many reasons why those defences with guns used are very different from those where they were not used.

*numbers based upon a official US government survey, so not hard data source, but generally expected to be as good as it gets otherwise: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf eg table 11

[Free Northman Reborn]

I simply cannot understand why suicides should be part of the gun debate in any way or form.

Someone deliberately inflicting harm on themselves should not interfere with the rights of anyone else.

Suicides are irrelevant to the gun ownership debate.

[Seli]

...

Suicides are dramatically more effected by the availability of firearms, because firearms give attempted suicides a far far higher success rate than other methods.

However, suicides are not impacted substantially by most of the forms of gun control in the US, which focus on mechanical properties of firearms, such as capacity and action type.

....

Agreed, although they might be influenced in a change in gun culture. Which is always one of the difficult things.

[E-Ro]

Let's see yer gunz!!!!!!!

[Seli]

I simply cannot understand why suicides should be part of the gun debate in any way or form.

Someone deliberately inflicting harm on themselves should not interfere with the rights of anyone else.

Suicides are irrelevant to the gun ownership debate.

But it is relevant to the gun culture debate. One can own and use guns in ways that put higher barriers to their use in suicide. And with suicide with ones weapons probably the single largest risk to weapons one that should not be ignored in talking about gun culture and responsible ownership.

[Ziggy Targdust]

It is an indicator, for whatever it is worth.

Apparently in the US guns are used* in self defence in approximately 1% of violent crimes, and at a similar rate during property crimes when people are present. Compared to other means of self defence (vocal, other weapons, attitude) in 23% or 4% respectively. Which, considering the prevalence of guns in the US seems sanely low. There does not seem to be an indication in my source how many of those defences were successful, but I don't see many reasons why those defences with guns used are very different from those where they were not used.

*numbers based upon a official US government survey, so not hard data source, but generally expected to be as good as it gets otherwise: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf eg table 11

I think that a completely and totally innucarate way of discovering truly when a gun had something to do with self defense.

By "used" does that mean the trigger was actually pulled? As most stats the ones you state can be spun either way. For example, if only 1% of break ins occur in homes of gun owners, then it could be claimed that owning a gun decreases the chances of someone invading your home while you are present.

[The onion wight]

But it is relevant to the gun culture debate. One can own and use guns in ways that put higher barriers to their use in suicide. And with suicide with ones weapons probably the single largest risk to weapons one that should not be ignored in talking about gun culture and responsible ownership.

Are you arguing that there would be fewer suicides if there weren't so many guns around? I would think that of someone wanted to take there own life they'd just find another means. I'd have to dig out some stats but the US doesn't have a higher suicide rate that many countries which restrict gun ownership.

[Suttree]

I'd have to dig out some stats

That would be a good place to start...

[Seli]

Are you arguing that there would be fewer suicides if there weren't so many guns around? I would think that of someone wanted to take there own life they'd just find another means. I'd have to dig out some stats but the US doesn't have a higher suicide rate that many countries which restrict gun ownership.

Yes*. We know that many (but not all) suicide attempts are impulsive actions, with people changing their minds when they are forced to take steps to make the attempt. We also know that within the US (and I think I've seen statistics for Canada as well) there is a positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide rates: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.

*eta: or if they are stored in safer ways, perhaps

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Actually statistically speaking it does seem to mean that, to a large degree. ie in the absence of that gun a large proportion of those murders and suicides would not have happened.

If you refer to the table you linked that was only for children aged 5-14, no? That's really a niche group when talking about violent crime and suicides.

[Hereward]

And yet, as onion wight says, suicide rates are broadly similar in the US and Western countries with stringent gun control laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate.

[Seli]

If you refer to the table you linked that was only for children aged 5-14, no? That's really a niche group when talking about violent crime and suicides.

Yes, and of course that was an example, as was the link I posted later in another post (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/ ). Or this one (again suicide) http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/jsp-sjp/wd98_4-dt98_4/p4.html?pedisable=true .

It is these bits of evidence, and my local cultural bias, that take my to my position.

And yet, as onion wight says, suicide rates are broadly similar in the US and Western countries with stringent gun control laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate.

Yes, if you think that is the important metric. Of course there is a lot of (cultural? environmental?) variation in rates, but I would guess that is less an issue for studies within the US, where a correlation definitely seems to be present.

[Steelegrave]

I would disagree, in the mid 1990's in quiet place called "Port Arthur" on the island of Tasmania Australia, the worst mass murders in our history occured. The man charged & brought to justice was mentally ill & had gotten permission to buy a rifle which he did. The country was so shocked & outraged that we knew something had to be done to stop this ever happening again.

Australia had just elected a new Liberal government after many years of Labour parliament. In light of those tragic events BOTH sides of parliament & every state & territory government also collaborated & introduced a bill to ban the ownership of handguns & limit the licensing of rifles with much greater restrictions. We implemented a National buy back scheme for every gun & handgun in the country to be turned over for a decent percentage of it's value to encourage people to willingly hand back the guns, before being made illegal to posses them.

As a result thousands & thousands of surrendered weapons were destroyed, melted down & we are much better off. Yes people who are determined to do harm will still get hold of a weapon but it sure as hell isn't easy nor should it be. By what reason do people base their "right" to bear firearms? there is only one purpose for a gun - to kill, maim or cause grievous bodily harm to someone, why would you want to own a weapon that does that,? a weapon one of your children may accidently find & use?

Luckily for Australia we don't have a "Constitution" to deal with. Your 2nd amendment was written in the 1700's when you had won a war against the British Tyranny. You are a free nation now, supposedly one of the most evolved on earth, so by all means treasure the reference to that 2nd amendment as a footprint in the page of your history, but move on. It's a document written in a bygone age. America needs to ban gun ownership, starting now, no new guns. Even if it's one brave State at a time until they are gone, unless the American people can understand this simple truth, the massacre's & tragedy will continue. Please don't blame mental illness or other tripe, it's the easy availability of a weapon that causes this & nothing else.

April 13, 2009

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

• In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

• Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.

During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.

Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," Free Republic, April 9, 2009.

[sologdin]

they took our grrrrrns!

[Steelegrave]

Certainly a relevant metric for any study looking at gun violence no?

The quote does say...

No

On the list of reasons why people commit suicide stunningly absent is "I am a gun owner"