Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Black Crow]

And there we have it boys and girls. Time for Heresy 119.

See you over there.

[Voice]

I think you're confused here. The Last Hero set out to find the children, so he couldn't have had any obsidian from the children already.

My guess is that the Last Hero found the Children, somehow convinced them to help him defeat the Others, and was told about Obsidian, and also told that he'd need a new sword to defeat them (ie Lightbringer), thus I think the Last Hero BECOMES Azor Ahai once he meets the children and later forges the sword.

Chronologically this fits. Though I wouldn't say it completely supports LH becomes AA.

I know many Heretics take issue with the legends and chronology as presented to us in the books, but what else do we have?

So the FM invade the homeland of Giants and CotF. The CotF and FM forge the Pact. Now it doesn't make sense at this point for the CotF to start handing over or explaining their magical dragonglass weaponry. They are recent enemies, now forced to get along with each other and keep this newly agreed upon peace.

I do however think it makes sense for them to give the FM dragonglass, knowledge of its effectiveness, during the Long Night. I think the CotF needed mankind at that point, as Men needed their help. Some of the wounds from their war should have healed by then, and I can see them teaching us about dragonglass to kill the Others/WW.

Dragonsteel seems a bit more strange. The Singers don't work metal do they? I wonder if perhaps this originated with AA, or if you're correct, when the LH became AA.

[Voice]

And there we have it boys and girls. Time for Heresy 119.

See you over there.

Aww so soon!? haha

[wolfmaid7]

Not sure I remember the blood thirsty bit, but certainly she said they were "cold dead things", which while we know GRRM said they're not dead, I'm not sure the people that saw them would realize they weren't dead. And they certainly are cold, so...

Yeah that's in the text, what GRRM says is mute its how he wrote the characters to believe. Which brings me to your last point about people not realizing they weren't dead and that my dear is the kind of problems that lead one to draw conclusions.What they were what if they weren't no one knows because people arrived at wrong assumptions.

They very existence of CHs is proof positive of what I'm saying. He is clearly an animated dead with a different purpose. But Bran was right he is still an "undead" thing.

[Melifeather]

I got chills during the 'saying of the vows' scene last night. It seems like they finally used (in another place) the bit Sam did to pass through the wall. Not to take anything away from Grenn, but I think stating the vows inside the wall, in the passage between the two realms was a really good idea, magic wise. The wall defended itself and its own, eh?

But Grenn and the other men all died. :bawl: So much for protecting the Nights Watch!

Chronologically this fits. Though I wouldn't say it completely supports LH becomes AA.

I know many Heretics take issue with the legends and chronology as presented to us in the books, but what else do we have?

So the FM invade the homeland of Giants and CotF. The CotF and FM forge the Pact. Now it doesn't make sense at this point for the CotF to start handing over or explaining their magical dragonglass weaponry. They are recent enemies, now forced to get along with each other and keep this newly agreed upon peace.

I do however think it makes sense for them to give the FM dragonglass, knowledge of its effectiveness, during the Long Night. I think the CotF needed mankind at that point, as Men needed their help. Some of the wounds from their war should have healed by then, and I can see them teaching us about dragonglass to kill the Others/WW.

Dragonsteel seems a bit more strange. The Singers don't work metal do they? I wonder if perhaps this originated with AA, or if you're correct, when the LH became AA.

You make an interesting point. How did whoever recorded that dragonsteel also works against the White Walkers know that it works unless it was around when the White Walkers were? Or is it an assumption because it's magically infused with fire magic?

[Voice]

Yeah that's in the text, what GRRM says is mute its how he wrote the characters to believe. Which brings me to your last point about people not realizing they weren't dead and that my dear is the kind of problems that lead one to draw conclusions.What they were what if they weren't no one knows because people arrived at wrong assumptions.

They very existence of CHs is proof positive of what I'm saying. He is clearly an animated dead with a different purpose. But Bran was right he is still an "undead" thing.

I see where you're coming from a bit more now. CH is unique, and I agree it would be hard for a lad or lady from a place like King's Landing to tell the difference between him and an Other. The thing is, if he is a wight, dragonglass would not kill him, and fire would. That goes against the lore of the Long Night (Old Nan), and the documents Samwell found.

[wolfmaid7]

I see where you're coming from a bit more now. CH is unique, and I agree it would be hard for a lad or lady from a place like King's Landing to tell the difference between him and an Other. The thing is, if he is a wight, dragonglass would not kill him, and fire would. That goes against the lore of the Long Night (Old Nan), and the documents Samwell found.

Bran did notice when him and the Co were discussing him."He stays away from the fire,he doesnt eat or sleep" things like that they picked up on ,as well has having the same queer scent the Wghts have that animals didn't seem to like .Bran in Summer noted that he smelled cold and he didn't like it.

We actually don't know how the Wights might react to Dragonglass,the Dagger shattered on Small Paul's mail when Sam tried to stab him so its not conclusive.

Edit: Ah crap i just noticed we moved over so we should end this here.

[Voice]

But Grenn and the other men all died. :bawl: So much for protecting the Nights Watch!

You make an interesting point. How did whoever recorded that dragonsteel also works against the White Walkers know that it works unless it was around when the White Walkers were? Or is it an assumption because it's magically infused with fire magic?

Why Grenn? What did he ever do? Bad enough we have to watch great characters die in the books, and now we have to watch the ones who survive die in the show!

Re: Dragonsteel

It smells of Valyrian influence, doesn't it? And to be honest, it may be the only non-religious evidence revealed in the books that tPtwP ever existed.

Dragonsteel cannot be a Singer's weapon, or product. That means it came from Men. Which men? The FM used Bronze. The Andals used Iron. I suppose Essos or Asshai is possible, some part thereof that follows R'llhor, but they are so tangential to the plot I don't see it having such an origin.

It seems like it would have to be of Valyrian origin. Though this would be long before Aegon's conquest, the presence of Valyrians in Westeros before then has already been revealed in the Targaryen excerpt from TWOIAF.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Chronologically this fits. Though I wouldn't say it completely supports LH becomes AA.

Dragonsteel seems a bit more strange. The Singers don't work metal do they? I wonder if perhaps this originated with AA, or if you're correct, when the LH became AA.

Oh I agree that it doesn't completely support it, it's just my own personal theory with very little (if any) support in the books. It just fits to me that the LH, AA, etc... are just different culture's stories and names for the same event.

As for Dragonsteel, my guess is that it's got obsidian in it somehow, thus why it keeps shattering in the AA stories. Again, though just conjecture on my part.