Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Black Crow]

... I looked and looked all morning and couldn't find the text in the books, the wiki, or the citadel, but IIRC Jon had a dream or vision of standing on the wall in black armor and holding a burning sword. Then there is another vision someone had about a king with bright blue eyes standing on the wall with a burning blade. Both visions seem to be the same person but Jon has grey eyes so dark they appear black. A wighted Jon might have those bright blue eyes.

Jon did indeed have that dream, but the other, which was one of the House of the Undying visions featured a blue-eyed king with no shadow. He was standing in the bow of a ship and is generally reckoned to be Stannis since his shadow has gone walkabout.

[wolfmaid7]

It seems GRRM may be using Jung's idea about the Shadow and using it to create seperate mystical entities. Mel's Shadow Baby, the White Walkers, and Lady Stoneheart all appear to have the characteristics of Jung's Shadow.

ETA: the reason I think Jon may be resurrected in flame is twofold:

1. This is the only magic that we know of that can resurrect.

2. I'm also assuming Jon's story is of ice and fire. When he is broken in two, his ice side may be represented by his animus within Ghost, while his fire side will be his shadow (need a flame to cast a shadow) which will be resurected with his human body by fire. Which is why Melisandre's presence and her growing realization of Jon's importance is occurring. I think she will be the one to resurrect him.

I couldn't agree with you more and a good indicator of why i believe "the cold/fog/mist" is another entity that inhabits the Wights.Or somebody else's Shadow who's above the WWs.The thing that all of these have in common is the primal rawness i talked about in the OP,you see it in Cat,Mel's babies and the wights and i don't think they are the only ones.If what happens at Harrenthal is true then those are examples to of other shadows that kill.I definitely think Mel will try to do something,but so will Val to me its not a coincidence that both of them are at the Wall.In researching for my "those who sing" thread i discovered that the elements of ice and fire actually do have a song and i think they sing together for the first time in attampt to heal Jon.Wheter that song will be harmonious or not will affect Jon.I actually think that ice and fire are two sides of the same coin,both can burn and i have feeling that both humors will play a part in Jon's recovery( because i don't think he's dead ofcourse). But i have no doubt that he will be some kind of a shadow.My guess a new version of the Shrouded Lord.

This idea really appeals to me. Perhaps Arya has or is becoming her shadow even though she still lives. Interesting to contemplate.

A lovely thought :P Before I let myself delve into the temptation of thinking who they might use for new bodies, there is something else worth considering if your idea is correct. Since the shadows are part of Stannis' life force, wonder if those shadow babies could enter a dead or dying body to revive them with the life force they contain from Stannis? This could be fun to contemplate as well. Maybe Mel can recall them and send them into Jon? Then her original idea that Stannis will wield LB could be partly right... hee hee

ETA: I also agree Jon could return to us as a Coldhands-style wight. I looked and looked all morning and couldn't find the text in the books, the wiki, or the citadel, but IIRC Jon had a dream or vision of standing on the wall in black armor and holding a burning sword. Then there is another vision someone had about a king with bright blue eyes standing on the wall with a burning blade. Both visions seem to be the same person but Jon has grey eyes so dark they appear black. A wighted Jon might have those bright blue eyes.

That's my take on it,i believe the Wights are inhabited by such an entity in the form of the White Cold/Mist/Fog,what is happening with them is to similar to the Stone Wights on the Sorrows.Not to mention the story of the Shrouded Lord sounds eeriy familiar to the Nights King story so i'm thinking they are the same story told from different cultural angles.The big problem to me is not the WWs,those shadows are a part and hazard of Winter and they have a job to do that has been complicated by how many Wights are geeting raised.So the problem is the Mist,that has to be bridled somehow.It is a shadow basically with no concious,and it is merciless.As i told Butcher,that is where i believe Jon's destiny lies to bridle that Mist.I expect him to let the darkness have him.

The vision of the blue eyed king with no shadow always spoke of Stannis to me,Dany doesn't know who he is but i don't think GRRM is trying to hide that she sees Stannis.We just don't know how he will play into her future.

Jon did indeed have that dream, but the other, which was one of the House of the Undying visions featured a blue-eyed king with no shadow. He was standing in the bow of a ship and is generally reckoned to be Stannis since his shadow has gone walkabout.

I thought this too,but could it me Vic after the red preist worked his mojo,some price was paid maybe his Shadows was consumed.

[Uldra I]

Jon did indeed have that dream, but the other, which was one of the House of the Undying visions featured a blue-eyed king with no shadow. He was standing in the bow of a ship and is generally reckoned to be Stannis since his shadow has gone walkabout.

Thanks for that. Great memory!

[TheButcherCrow]

Certainly true. But the real obstacle is the timeline.

Any premise that the CotF were behind the Long Night (then or now), or are somehow affiliated with the Popsicles, must explain why

* The Long Night happened a reported four thousand years after the First Men originally invaded

* It also reportedly happened two thousand years after the Pact, in which the CotF gave away half or more of their continent

* It never happened at all after the invasion of the Andals (and their mass murder of CotF and destruction of virtually all southron weirwoods)

These are such spectacular and obvious issues, it continues to surprise me anyone can believe the initial premise.

* The Long Night happened a reported four thousand years after the First Men originally invaded

I would honestly be stunned if the "official" timeline was accurate. This is not a non-diegetic timeline issuing from the author, it is a timeline written by characters in the books based on the extremely scarce information they have to hand. Ask yourself, what do think medieval Britons knew about the bronze age? Not a huge amount but no doubt the "scholars" of the day just made shit up based on circumstantial evidence and political convenience.

* It also reportedly happened two thousand years after the Pact, in which the CotF gave away half or more of their continent

Calling in the Hammer served them well enough to force a pact with the FM in the first instance.

* It never happened at all after the invasion of the Andals (and their mass murder of CotF and destruction of virtually all southron weirwoods)

Exactly, this would seem to be a perfect time to deploy plan W, which is pretty much what I think they did.

One of the themes of these books is the use of morally questionable tactics in a morally justifiable context. The RW, Stannis killing Renly, Jaime tossing Bran, Tyrion's wildfire, Lady Stoneheart, the list goes on. I think thematically it would be gratifying to see that theme continued from the Game into the Song. If the CotF unleashed the WW then that would certainly fit that nicely. I just cannot see the Cotf being a plot device, a level up for Bran so he can sort shit out, they have to be more.

[diskoerekto]

By the way, if we are discussing Craster's sons, I think we have to discuss his first wife. Maybe there is something special about her. Maybe his first wife is half-shadow and gave birth to a quarter shadow girl, and in time the "shadowness" in the subsequent generations got diluted since the father is always human. Among all the free folk who live north of the wall, he seems to be the only one who gives kids to the WW (or the WW prefer his children). The WW seem to be powerful enough to kidnap other babies if they intend to. There should be a special case for Craster IMO. Either his first wife, or maybe his mother.

[TheButcherCrow]

There should be a special case for Craster IMO. Either his first wife, or maybe his mother.

I've posted about this before, I reckon Craster's first wife was his mother.

[diskoerekto]

I've posted about this before, I reckon Craster's first wife was his mother.

but not every -forgive me- mofo should produce children that is special for the WW. There should be something special about his mother/wife even if they are the same person.

[Voice]

<snipped. you're words, as a WW sympathizer LOL, are in blue below, MaesterSam..>

I must say, I am really enjoying this discussion. Here we go again :)

As am I :)

1. I agree, it's possible they didn't mean to let Gared go. We don't really have evidence either way. But if they didn't mean to let him go and he escaped anyway, this makes them seem slightly incompetent IMO.

Sure, totally agree with that. We have been shown that they are not without weaknessess.

2. Still not quite on board with the booby trapping. After all, Waymar was killed beneath the tree, and they simply left his body where it fell. They didn't move it to below the tree, or hide it... If the NW hadn't forgotten that sometimes the dead can rise, Will could have jumped from the tree, sword in hand, and had a fighting chance. But overall I feel like this is a minor point- on to more important things!

To be honest, I'm not sure it was booby trap for Will. I think they know their fallen prey will rise again, harder and stronger LOL. I see it more like their way of covering their asses at a kill site. Their prey die, then fight for them, that's a pretty good way to ensnare any foes that may have been in hiding. It is a great way to cloak your existence in a veil of lore and wet nurse tales. But as you say, I too feel this a minor thing - because Will was doomed in any case. Onward :)

3. Ah yes, they have been gone for a long time. Good point. But now they are back, and the squatters need to move. It's normal for there to be some conflict as the rightful owner reclaims his land.

Yeah. A long time. Thousands of years!!! That would be like Alexander the Great showing up on your doorstep, or a Pharaoh.

We have no evidence the WW have a rightful claim to any lands, or ever have. If we cite Old Nan, they first came after the First Men were already in Westeros. Which to me, means they are not one of the ancient indigenous races. They are old, but not even as old as the First Men.

If evidence emerges that they are rightful owners, then I will cede the point and agree the squatters are obligated to move, no matter how ignorant or innocent they may be in the matter.

Nonetheless, this begs the question of why a WW would need land in the first place. They do not seem to need food or water, or even shelter.

(The reason I say rightful owner is that the old races didn't flee behind the wall until the Andals came. So when the wall was first put up, it wasn't a border between realms of men vs old races, but rather almost everyone was to the south of it, and the old races moved north later. Also- if the WW don't have a claim to these northern lands, then where else should they go? They have to live somewhere...)

Bingo. It wasn't built to be a border. The Wall is not a border fence. It is a warning beacon to ensure that the people are not caught offguard by an invasion of Others, as happened in the Long Night. And as we have seen, it is quite effective as such. It is not an effective border, as we learned from Leaf's anthropological expedition among the apes of Westeros, and Ygritte and Mance's many tales of free folk going south at will. It is an obstacle, and an inconvenience, but not an impasse.

So with this in mind, and the fact that it's location is more of a geographic convenience, how can it be an official border that denotes land ownership? Humans and other races have lived both north and south of it for hundreds of years.

South of the Wall, Wun Wun is hanging out with one of the sexiest women on planetos, when he should be able to kick his feet up on his giant ottoman and watch some football back at his home north of the Wall. But he can't. Why? Because he is being displaced from his traditional homeland by the Others. ...though if it were me, I'd sooner stay wherever Val is LOL

5. I suppose it depends on how you view that scene. Given that it happened "in silence", wasn't Waymar done screaming at this point? I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly. But then, I have never seen anyone killed in this way (thankfully!).

It's easy to let our memories be skewed in the course of debate as everyone remembers bits and pieces that suit their arguments. I know I sure do that LOL, and have already been called out for it here, so let's review the end of Ser Waymar real quick...

Quote (I've added numerals to reference each paragraph, other than that, it's unedited):

I. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

II. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

III. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

IV. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

V. When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

VI. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

VII. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Let's let that sink in. Read it again if you have time. Then again... and again.... lol

My thoughts on each paragraph:

I. Even the sound of the exchange is an unfair advantage for the Others. Imagine trying to fight while the screech of this clangor rattled your eardrums to the point of agony. Ser Waymar has the disadvantage of needing to breathe and having muscles that fatigue with exertion, the Other does not. And it is so cold in this near proximity to the Other that his sword has begun to freeze over, despite being swung about. Pretty, pretty, pretty Cold. (I hope you are a Larry David fan haha)

II. The mortal wound. But not a quick death. He can bleed out for a nice long time while the Others have their fun.

III. I actually forgot about this line. Wow. I think this is where wolfmaid thinks he's saying "Well fought, Ser" LOL. I underestimated the Others' cruelty. Full disclosure, I am a field linguist. I learn and document indigenous languages that are in danger of being lost, teach them, and train teachers to teach them. I deal with language acquisition issues everyday. Even without speaking 'Other-ese', it is quite easy for Will to comprehend their tone of voice. People learn this first in a language-immersion environment. So in this paragraph, Ser Crackles mocks Waymar. Pretty harsh in my book. And hard to interpret otherwise. (It's not like Ser Crackles was trying to hand Waymar a loaf of warm bread the whole time). Not only did Will comprehend the mockery, but Waymar did as well, as we see in the next paragraph.

IV. He found his fury. He would not be mocked in death. He will die, but at least he wanted to die with his pride. His sword is now covered in frost, but he swings it in anger nonetheless - for the first time, for the last time. The Other's tone of voice is confirmed in his body language - with his lackadaisical parry of Ser Waymar's only offensive strike. A parry, in Fencing, is a defensive action to deflect an opponent's attack. Ser Waymar put his whole life into that single attack. Ser Crackles yawns and deflects it with a shrug. I exaggerate here a bit to show how this type of parry would appear if it were say, Ilyn vs Jaime (which is a great analogy for the prologue, if not an homage to himself by GRRM). I see no way Will misunderstood the body language of the Other. He knew sword play, and I think we can safely assume he was trained at it by Ser Alliser. It's not hard to tell when someone is playing with a doomed opponent.

V. Yeah, not seeing the level playing field.

VI. Here is our scream. Waymar's frozen longsword now shatters like a rain of needles - amazing and vivid imagery - and these needles fly into Waymar's eyes. I do a lot of woodworking and it hurts like hell when this happens with sawdust. If it were a rain of steel needles, I think it would hurt a lot more. Though, it wouldn't kill me. It would just be terrifying and excruciating. I'm still not seeing how this is not cruel.

VII. Ah, the silent signal. I think the silent signal is given when Waymar yields. He has dropped his sword, and is now kneeling when the watchers move forward together. Ser Waymar is very much alive, and could remain so for quite some time as he bleeds out, or could be maestered in a jiffy. And no doubt, when Will hears their voices and laughter, wolfmaid believes they are lamenting the dead and what Will is misinterpreting their wails of sorrow for the fate of poor Ser Waymar. Just kidding wolfmaid :)

So now that we've reviewed, let's return to your point:

I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly.

Wounded, but not killed. Tortured with needles of steel in his eyes, but not dead. He was not lying down in the snow, bleeding out, barely conscious. He was kneeling, shrieking, and covering his eyes as blood welled between his fingers. The watchers were silent as they came forward, and silent still as they sliced him to ribbons, but I doubt Ser Waymar stopped shrieking at this point, in some chivalrous display of respect for a "duel" well fought.

It sounds a bit disturbing to me. Even though he didn't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings for Royce, Will shut his eyes because he couldn't bear to watch the butchery any longer.

6. I am going to leave the word honor out of it, as I think this is where much of our disagreement originates. Maybe a better way of putting it is to say that killing an armed intruder- and a member of an enemy race- on your lands is not an unusually cruel or evil response in the world of ice and fire. Are there kinder ways to handle the situation? Certainly. The Starks took in Osha, a wildling on their lands...but it was a hard decision for Robb. He could just as well have killed her, and many other lords probably would have.

To be honest, I'm bewildered by the interpretation of the Others having any sense of honor, or a code of conduct that promotes fair rules of engagement. As the murder of Ser Waymar illustrates in graphic detail, that is the one thing they clearly do not possess.

To your example of Osha:

If the Starks surrounded her while Robb stuck a spear in her side, stripped her of her dignity, mocked her teats, filled her eyes with rock salt, and had her kneel before him -- then Jon, Luwin, Rodrik, Theon, and Jory come forward and whip her as she weeps and bleeds to death -- then it would be very hard for me to wrap my head around how the Starks of Winterfell abide by a code of conduct some consider honorable as her body rises and strangles her little sister...

I'm not sure once I step on a spider that there's much left for anyone else to step on, lol.... but I see your point. Again, maybe instead of honor, we can say they do have some sort of code of conduct. Like Dexter, maybe. The fact that Ser Puddles didn't seem to expect Sam or Grenn to intervene makes me think that they see a duel as one-on-one, at least until the outcome is clear. Otherwise he wouldn't have turned his back on two NW men.

If Dexter mocked them for trespassing, filled their eyes with toothpicks, watched them kneel before him... then had the neighbors come over and shoot him full of holes, then yes - totally like Dexter :smoking:

Ser Puddles demonstrates (thankfully, IMO) that they can be killed, they are not without weakness, and they can be disarmed. If they can be disarmed, then they can be unarmed. But we have yet to see a WW approach a man unarmed. Strange, for such honorable folk :cool4:

I think what I'm mostly trying to get at is that they are not an evil killing machine (unlike Mel's shadow babies for example),

I think I've disproven that they are kind, just killers (as say, Ned doing his duty and serving the King's justice). But I would agree they are not machines. I think they are complicated, complex, sentient, organized, and led.

but that if one spoke their language and remembered the terms of the last peace, perhaps one could understand their motivations and achieve peace once more.

Ever seen Mars Attacks? LOL

After all, there are tales of women sleeping with them in the past, so there must be some way to interact and communicate.

Well some guys don't care where they put it. :lol: I'm joking.

But that gets into my theory that we are dealing with three distinct types of non-humanoid races when characters in the book mention The Others (e.g., "May the Others take my sister").

On the humanoid side, we have Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants.

On the non-humanoid, Other side, I propose we have:

1. The Original Others or "Others Proper" who first came in the Long Night thousands of years ago, and who we have yet to see in the books (though might have glimpsed some in the show). They have genders, as you point out a female seduced Night's King. They use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (like the Last Hero). And, most importantly IMO, they are intelligent enough to plan a very successful invasion of the Hundred Kingdoms of Men that was only thwarted by the Last Hero.
2. The White Walkers move like white shadows through the woods, and ride upon dead horses and the like. We have seen them in the books. They hunt as we saw Waymar hunted. While they display organization and hierarchy, they do not seem to be as intelligent as say, Tyrion. I believe the Original Others create WW. Heretics like to remind me GRRM only refers to this class alone as, "Others." And I remind fellow heretics that his characters do not make this distinction, and they know far less about the Others than GRRM does.
3. The Wights are the dead who rise. These are even less intelligent than WW, but do retain enough memory to hold a grudge. But who knows, they might be smart enough to guard a sky cell at the Eyrie.

It is my contention that three blasts from a horn refers to any and all of these other non-humanoid or formerly-humanoid creatures.

-------------------

Though I agree men should stay in their realm, which is south of the Wall, I repeat that we have no reason to view the land north of it as belonging to the Others. Though it makes for a good theory, the pact as written in the series thus far, was not made with the Others. It was made between the First Men and the CotF.

I agree on the pact, but the pact was not what ended the Long Night.

Again, we agree Ser :)

That would have been a separate peace agreement, that surely had to include the Others, as they were one of the fighting parties.

Except no such peace agreement is written of anywhere in the books. It is only written that someone (Azor Ahai? the Last Hero?) drove them back. That is not a peace agreement. That is a retreat.

Well, now it would appear that they have regrouped and are advancing once more. There is no pact with the Others.

If the Wall is intended to keep the Others in, then isn't the land enclosed by the Wall at least implicitly ceded to the Others?

No, because that is not what the Wall was built for. Once the Others were sent into retreat, Men decided it would be nice to not be taken by the Others by surprise ever again. The Wall is a place to Watch from, and with horns to wake the sleepers it is an alarum. It functions as a shield should the Others return, but is not a corral for them.

Like the polar bear enclosure- you have to assume the polar bears can roam anywhere within the enclosure. If WWs had no right to be in the Haunted Forest, for example, why not build the Wall farther north, around only the Lands of Always Winter?

Well, you now know my thoughts on this, it is not a corral for them. It is a shield and a warning system should they return and attack. The location of the Wall is more of a geographic convenience than anything else, built to span the neck of the north.

When the NW guards the realms of men by guarding the Wall, this implies to me that the realms of men don't extend beyond the Wall.

It doesn't imply that for me, at all. Men, CotF, and Giants all continued to live north of the Wall, as they had been. The Wall created the Free Folk. Before it, they were just First Men living north of the Neck. The Wall is a line of defense. It is not a border. Lines of defense move throughout times of conflict. And it may move again yet.

Now on to WF... first of all I really enjoyed your future generation of Freys and Lannisters... Waldrid and Bronn, very fitting! And I actually think our little fan fiction here is getting us closer to the truth of what's going on.

"Where I see honor going out the window in your scenario, is what if Cersei and Walda/Walder do not pass on the information to their progeny as Arya has? They would be walking into the wolf's den unawares, the Lannisters would only have their golden locks to protect them, and the Freys, well all they have is their rabbit-like ability to multiply. They venture north, and north again, let's say 18 year old Waldrid Frey is surrounded by the descendants of Arya of House Stark - who have now developed paranormal killing abilities due to Arya's time with the faceless men, or whatever..."

I think you hit the nail on the head here- this is exactly the problem! There was a war, and some sort of peace agreement long ago.

Nope. There wasn't. There are theories of such, but nothing like that exists in the books. I agree there was a war though :cool4:

The WW were likely sleeping/hibernating until recently,

Or, preparing for the next attack...

so for them, not much has changed and they expect the terms to still be honored now that they are back.

What terms? There are no terms. Someone drove them back. They retreated. That is all.

Humans, however, have completely forgotten about their treaty obligations and are likely breaking rules left and right without even knowing they are doing it.

Now we're in full blown Treaty status??? LOL ...there is no Treaty of the Wall, my friend.

Add to that the rewriting of history by the maesters, and a language barrier, and we have a Huge misunderstanding on our hands.

I agree the maesters have done everyone a disservice, and the Others speak a different language, but they have made no effort to communicate, other than to mock and laugh at Men they torture.

---------------

Where is the dishonor? Well, for starters, Arya's pack used other-worldly means to utterly destroy Waldrid, after watching her fill with fear. And she didn't even realize she had stumbled upon "their land." ..."Their land," despite them not being seen for hundreds of years. There would by now be distant cousins of Walders and Freys living all over the region in little tribes, and not one of them will have glimpsed an Ahai Wolf Pack in generations to warn young Waldrid about.

Yes! Again, perfect analogy. Imagine the war is over, and an agreement reached.

Well we would have to imagine that, wouldn't we. Because the war is obviously not over, and no agreement was ever reached.

You go into hibernation for a while, and when you wake up, your enemy has built settlements all over your land!!

...land that they have always build settlements on.

Wow, can you imagine how the WW must feel when they realize this?! How Arry would feel?

The current people living and ranging on WW lands don't know they are doing anything wrong...

And neither do we.

but the WW aren't wrong to want them gone either.

...no, they're just misunderstood

It sucks for the current clueless people, but really it's whatever generation failed to pass on the info that is to blame here.

Old Nan is passing the info along. Bran's Vision, and all of our experiences with Others seem to uphold that info. Haven't you ever thought about that expression used in the series, "may the Others take him!"? Where do you think it comes from? When someone says it about an annoying fellow, do you take it to mean they want the Others to take the fellow back to where he once belonged, or maybe, they want the Others to come take him to the disputed lands north of the Wall? No. They use it to mean they'd rather the person be dead and damned.

Which brings us to the grand finale... humans have forgotten some really, really important things over time.

Totally agree with that.

Unless they can find a way to retrieve this information and set things right, there is a good chance they will be wiped out by the WW.

The Others could well invade someday. Agreed. Time to carry some obsidian in your back pocket.

But IMO, this doesn't make the WW evil - they stuck to their end of the deal, after all.

What deal? Getting their butts kicked? But I'm sure wolfmaid would applaud you...LOL.

I mean no offense wolfmaid, just having a laugh :)

Even now, 5 books in, we haven't seen a single WW even attempt to cross the Wall. This may change, if people don't get their act together. So here's to hoping Bran is a quick study, and, importantly, finds a way to convey what he learns to other members of his race before it's too late.

Well, the realms of Men may only need one Last Hero. At least the north remembers, and that may be enough.

[redrose]

Imho, shades are shadows of a spirit. So far, the only really substantial possibility of a shade that I remember occurred in the Crypts at Winterfell when Ned's spirit spoke to both Bran and Rickon right after he was beheaded. Not sure Ned's shade is what the Stark kids encountered that night because it might have had something more to do with greensight, rather than an actual ghostly apparition. Though ghosts are mentioned several times in the books, this is the only occasion I can think of that might actually describe one. Have you got a theory of your own?

The shadow question I'd like ideas on is the Quaithe prophecy to Dany that she will have to pass beneath the shadow to reach the light. I'm assuming that's going to mean she has to go to Asshai, but even Martin says that Asshai will only be viewed through memories or flashbacks. Also that would be a rather lengthy detour from getting back to Meereen and on her way to Westeros. Melisandre has already told us her flashback/memory. Any other ideas about that shadow Quaithe speaks of?

ETA:

Do these shadows Dany saw Mirri Maz Duur create have anything to do with fire magic, or is fire magic a separate thing from the shadow binding Melisandre does? If shadowbinding is different, maybe that can help explain how the Others can create their WW shadowbabies.

Hold that thought with regards the bolded part

As far as I recall the only reference to the term shades is when Ygritte complains that Mance's digging up on the Milkwater released a lot of them to no effect.

In discussing the raising of wights before we've theorised that at death the spirit sleeps within the bones, fading gradually as the body does and eventually going into the earth. The creation of wights therefore requires an arresting of the process of bodily decay and an awakening of the spirit within. Hence the importance of creation to prevent that. Conversely in skinchanging we see the spirit, although ultimately bound to the birth body, capable of flying free to enter another and in the case of Craster's sons to enter a magical one. Similarly in the case of Mel's shadow babies we see part of Stannis moving around independently of him.

The point of this being that in certain circumstances the spirit, shade or shadow can be released from the body. We know that the bones are significant and for example when Summer chewed on a wight it was only when he cracked open the bones it remembered it was dead and stopped wriggling.

So far as those graves up the Milkwater were concerned its possible that what Ygritte was referring to was not the opening of the graves per se but rather the disturbing and possible breaking of the bones in the process. As to Ned Stark, the Sisters took care of his bones and its possible that what they did released his spirit as a shade and that like Stannis' shadows it then faded away after a time rather than continuing in a host of some kind.

I have to say I think there is much more importance with Ygrittes admission of releasing hundreds of shades from the graves they dug up looking for the horn of joramun. Ygriite felt uneasy about this fact if I recall correctly. The wildlings burn their dead----Why? Is it a recent thing……I'm not sure. Why do we have hundreds of graves or barrows north of the wall? The wildlings seem to remember a lot more about the original long night with insights that we get from osha, oshas mum, oshas grandma (we remember things you have forgotten,etc) that i can only think that these graves and barrows were from before the 1st long night. Hence with regards the bolded part in Bcs post, I tend to think of the cave of skulls and all the bones on the floor that Bran et al noticed and think that they are used for magical purposes. And if we have a magical bloodline such as the starks, this is why both bran and rickon can have a conversation with their dad even though his head has been removed from his shoulders as the marrow in his bones is still intact and hence his shade is free to return to his ancestral home.

Im sorry if none of this makes sense and seems like rambling but getting up with the kids during the night is not good for cognitive function.

[addicted to snow]

I must say, I am really enjoying this discussion. Here we go again :)

As am I :)

1. I agree, it's possible they didn't mean to let Gared go. We don't really have evidence either way. But if they didn't mean to let him go and he escaped anyway, this makes them seem slightly incompetent IMO.

Sure, totally agree with that. We have been shown that they are not without weaknessess.

2. Still not quite on board with the booby trapping. After all, Waymar was killed beneath the tree, and they simply left his body where it fell. They didn't move it to below the tree, or hide it... If the NW hadn't forgotten that sometimes the dead can rise, Will could have jumped from the tree, sword in hand, and had a fighting chance. But overall I feel like this is a minor point- on to more important things!

To be honest, I'm not sure it was booby trap for Will. I think they know their fallen prey will rise again, harder and stronger LOL. I see it more like their way of covering their asses at a kill site. Their prey die, then fight for them, that's a pretty good way to ensnare any foes that may have been in hiding. It is a great way to cloak your existence in a veil of lore and wet nurse tales. But as you say, I too feel this a minor thing - because Will was doomed in any case. Onward :)

3. Ah yes, they have been gone for a long time. Good point. But now they are back, and the squatters need to move. It's normal for there to be some conflict as the rightful owner reclaims his land.

Yeah. A long time. Thousands of years!!! That would be like Alexander the Great showing up on your doorstep, or a Pharaoh.

We have no evidence the WW have a rightful claim to any lands, or ever have. If we cite Old Nan, they first came after the First Men were already in Westeros. Which to me, means they are not one of the ancient indigenous races. They are old, but not even as old as the First Men.

If evidence emerges that they are rightful owners, then I will cede the point and agree the squatters are obligated to move, no matter how ignorant or innocent they may be in the matter.

Nonetheless, this begs the question of why a WW would need land in the first place. They do not seem to need food or water, or even shelter.

(The reason I say rightful owner is that the old races didn't flee behind the wall until the Andals came. So when the wall was first put up, it wasn't a border between realms of men vs old races, but rather almost everyone was to the south of it, and the old races moved north later. Also- if the WW don't have a claim to these northern lands, then where else should they go? They have to live somewhere...)

Bingo. It wasn't built to be a border. The Wall is not a border fence. It is a warning beacon to ensure that the people are not caught offguard by an invasion of Others, as happened in the Long Night. And as we have seen, it is quite effective as such. It is not an effective border, as we learned from Leaf's anthropological expedition among the apes of Westeros, and Ygritte and Mance's many tales of free folk going south at will. It is an obstacle, and an inconvenience, but not an impasse.

So with this in mind, and the fact that it's location is more of a geographic convenience, how can it be an official border that denotes land ownership? Humans and other races have lived both north and south of it for hundreds of years.

South of the Wall, Wun Wun is hanging out with one of the sexiest women on planetos, when he should be able to kick his feet up on his giant ottoman and watch some football back at his home north of the Wall. But he can't. Why? Because he is being displaced from his traditional homeland by the Others. ...though if it were me, I'd sooner stay wherever Val is LOL

5. I suppose it depends on how you view that scene. Given that it happened "in silence", wasn't Waymar done screaming at this point? I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly. But then, I have never seen anyone killed in this way (thankfully!).

It's easy to let our memories be skewed in the course of debate as everyone remembers bits and pieces that suit their arguments. I know I sure do that LOL, and have already been called out for it here, so let's review the end of Ser Waymar real quick...

Quote (I've added numerals to reference each paragraph, other than that, it's unedited):

I. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

II. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

III. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

IV. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

V. When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

VI. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

VII. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Let's let that sink in. Read it again if you have time. Then again... and again.... lol

My thoughts on each paragraph:

I. Even the sound of the exchange is an unfair advantage for the Others. Imagine trying to fight while the screech of this clangor rattled your eardrums to the point of agony. Ser Waymar has the disadvantage of needing to breathe and having muscles that fatigue with exertion, the Other does not. And it is so cold in this near proximity to the Other that his sword has begun to freeze over, despite being swung about. Pretty, pretty, pretty Cold. (I hope you are a Larry David fan haha)

II. The mortal wound. But not a quick death. He can bleed out for a nice long time while the Others have their fun.

III. I actually forgot about this line. Wow. I think this is where wolfmaid thinks he's saying "Well fought, Ser" LOL. I underestimated the Others' cruelty. Full disclosure, I am a field linguist. I learn and document indigenous languages that are in danger of being lost, teach them, and train teachers to teach them. I deal with language acquisition issues everyday. Even without speaking 'Other-ese', it is quite easy for Will to comprehend their tone of voice. People learn this first in a language-immersion environment. So in this paragraph, Ser Crackles mocks Waymar. Pretty harsh in my book. And hard to interpret otherwise. (It's not like Ser Crackles was trying to hand Waymar a loaf of warm bread the whole time). Not only did Will comprehend the mockery, but Waymar did as well, as we see in the next paragraph.

IV. He found his fury. He would not be mocked in death. He will die, but at least he wanted to die with his pride. His sword is now covered in frost, but he swings it in anger nonetheless - for the first time, for the last time. The Other's tone of voice is confirmed in his body language - with his lackadaisical parry of Ser Waymar's only offensive strike. A parry, in Fencing, is a defensive action to deflect an opponent's attack. Ser Waymar put his whole life into that single attack. Ser Crackles yawns and deflects it with a shrug. I exaggerate here a bit to show how this type of parry would appear if it were say, Ilyn vs Jaime (which is a great analogy for the prologue, if not an homage to himself by GRRM). I see no way Will misunderstood the body language of the Other. He knew sword play, and I think we can safely assume he was trained at it by Ser Alliser. It's not hard to tell when someone is playing with a doomed opponent.

V. Yeah, not seeing the level playing field.

VI. Here is our scream. Waymar's frozen longsword now shatters like a rain of needles - amazing and vivid imagery - and these needles fly into Waymar's eyes. I do a lot of woodworking and it hurts like hell when this happens with sawdust. If it were a rain of steel needles, I think it would hurt a lot more. Though, it wouldn't kill me. It would just be terrifying and excruciating. I'm still not seeing how this is not cruel.

VII. Ah, the silent signal. I think the silent signal is given when Waymar yields. He has dropped his sword, and is now kneeling when the watchers move forward together. Ser Waymar is very much alive, and could remain so for quite some time as he bleeds out, or could be maestered in a jiffy. And no doubt, when Will hears their voices and laughter, wolfmaid believes they are lamenting the dead and what Will is misinterpreting their wails of sorrow for the fate of poor Ser Waymar. Just kidding wolfmaid :)

So now that we've reviewed, let's return to your point:

I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly.

Wounded, but not killed. Tortured with needles of steel in his eyes, but not dead. He was not lying down in the snow, bleeding out, barely conscious. He was kneeling, shrieking, and covering his eyes as blood welled between his fingers. The watchers were silent as they came forward, and silent still as they sliced him to ribbons, but I doubt Ser Waymar stopped shrieking at this point, in some chivalrous display of respect for a "duel" well fought.

It sounds a bit disturbing to me. Even though he didn't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings for Royce, Will shut his eyes because he couldn't bear to watch the butchery any longer.

6. I am going to leave the word honor out of it, as I think this is where much of our disagreement originates. Maybe a better way of putting it is to say that killing an armed intruder- and a member of an enemy race- on your lands is not an unusually cruel or evil response in the world of ice and fire. Are there kinder ways to handle the situation? Certainly. The Starks took in Osha, a wildling on their lands...but it was a hard decision for Robb. He could just as well have killed her, and many other lords probably would have.

To be honest, I'm bewildered by the interpretation of the Others having any sense of honor, or a code of conduct that promotes fair rules of engagement. As the murder of Ser Waymar illustrates in graphic detail, that is the one thing they clearly do not possess.

To your example of Osha:

If the Starks surrounded her while Robb stuck a spear in her side, stripped her of her dignity, mocked her teats, filled her eyes with rock salt, and had her kneel before him -- then Jon, Luwin, Rodrik, Theon, and Jory come forward and whip her as she weeps and bleeds to death -- then it would be very hard for me to wrap my head around how the Starks of Winterfell abide by a code of conduct some consider honorable as her body rises and strangles her little sister...

I'm not sure once I step on a spider that there's much left for anyone else to step on, lol.... but I see your point. Again, maybe instead of honor, we can say they do have some sort of code of conduct. Like Dexter, maybe. The fact that Ser Puddles didn't seem to expect Sam or Grenn to intervene makes me think that they see a duel as one-on-one, at least until the outcome is clear. Otherwise he wouldn't have turned his back on two NW men.

If Dexter mocked them for trespassing, filled their eyes with toothpicks, watched them kneel before him... then had the neighbors come over and shoot him full of holes, then yes - totally like Dexter :smoking:

Ser Puddles demonstrates (thankfully, IMO) that they can be killed, they are not without weakness, and they can be disarmed. If they can be disarmed, then they can be unarmed. But we have yet to see a WW approach a man unarmed. Strange, for such honorable folk :cool4:

I think what I'm mostly trying to get at is that they are not an evil killing machine (unlike Mel's shadow babies for example),

I think I've disproven that they are kind, just killers (as say, Ned doing his duty and serving the King's justice). But I would agree they are not machines. I think they are complicated, complex, sentient, organized, and led.

but that if one spoke their language and remembered the terms of the last peace, perhaps one could understand their motivations and achieve peace once more.

Ever seen Mars Attacks? LOL

After all, there are tales of women sleeping with them in the past, so there must be some way to interact and communicate.

Well some guys don't care where they put it. :lol: I'm joking.

But that gets into my theory that we are dealing with three distinct types of non-humanoid races when characters in the book mention The Others (e.g., "May the Others take my sister").

On the humanoid side, we have Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants.

On the non-humanoid, Other side, I propose we have:

1. The Original Others or "Others Proper" who first came in the Long Night thousands of years ago, and who we have yet to see in the books (though might have glimpsed some in the show). They have genders, as you point out a female seduced Night's King. They use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (like the Last Hero). And, most importantly IMO, they are intelligent enough to plan a very successful invasion of the Hundred Kingdoms of Men that was only thwarted by the Last Hero.
2. The White Walkers move like white shadows through the woods, and ride upon dead horses and the like. We have seen them in the books. They hunt as we saw Waymar hunted. While they display organization and hierarchy, they do not seem to be as intelligent as say, Tyrion. I believe the Original Others create WW. Heretics like to remind me GRRM only refers to this class alone as, "Others." And I remind fellow heretics that his characters do not make this distinction, and they know far less about the Others than GRRM does.
3. The Wights are the dead who rise. These are even less intelligent than WW, but do retain enough memory to hold a grudge. But who knows, they might be smart enough to guard a sky cell at the Eyrie.

It is my contention that three blasts from a horn refers to any and all of these other non-humanoid or formerly-humanoid creatures.

-------------------

Though I agree men should stay in their realm, which is south of the Wall, I repeat that we have no reason to view the land north of it as belonging to the Others. Though it makes for a good theory, the pact as written in the series thus far, was not made with the Others. It was made between the First Men and the CotF.

I agree on the pact, but the pact was not what ended the Long Night.

Again, we agree Ser :)

That would have been a separate peace agreement, that surely had to include the Others, as they were one of the fighting parties.

Except no such peace agreement is written of anywhere in the books. It is only written that someone (Azor Ahai? the Last Hero?) drove them back. That is not a peace agreement. That is a retreat.

Well, now it would appear that they have regrouped and are advancing once more. There is no pact with the Others.

If the Wall is intended to keep the Others in, then isn't the land enclosed by the Wall at least implicitly ceded to the Others?

No, because that is not what the Wall was built for. Once the Others were sent into retreat, Men decided it would be nice to not be taken by the Others by surprise ever again. The Wall is a place to Watch from, and with horns to wake the sleepers it is an alarum. It functions as a shield should the Others return, but is not a corral for them.

Like the polar bear enclosure- you have to assume the polar bears can roam anywhere within the enclosure. If WWs had no right to be in the Haunted Forest, for example, why not build the Wall farther north, around only the Lands of Always Winter?

Well, you now know my thoughts on this, it is not a corral for them. It is a shield and a warning system should they return and attack. The location of the Wall is more of a geographic convenience than anything else, built to span the neck of the north.

When the NW guards the realms of men by guarding the Wall, this implies to me that the realms of men don't extend beyond the Wall.

It doesn't imply that for me, at all. Men, CotF, and Giants all continued to live north of the Wall, as they had been. The Wall created the Free Folk. Before it, they were just First Men living north of the Neck. The Wall is a line of defense. It is not a border. Lines of defense move throughout times of conflict. And it may move again yet.

Now on to WF... first of all I really enjoyed your future generation of Freys and Lannisters... Waldrid and Bronn, very fitting! And I actually think our little fan fiction here is getting us closer to the truth of what's going on.

"Where I see honor going out the window in your scenario, is what if Cersei and Walda/Walder do not pass on the information to their progeny as Arya has? They would be walking into the wolf's den unawares, the Lannisters would only have their golden locks to protect them, and the Freys, well all they have is their rabbit-like ability to multiply. They venture north, and north again, let's say 18 year old Waldrid Frey is surrounded by the descendants of Arya of House Stark - who have now developed paranormal killing abilities due to Arya's time with the faceless men, or whatever..."

I think you hit the nail on the head here- this is exactly the problem! There was a war, and some sort of peace agreement long ago.

Nope. There wasn't. There are theories of such, but nothing like that exists in the books. I agree there was a war though :cool4:

The WW were likely sleeping/hibernating until recently,

Or, preparing for the next attack...

so for them, not much has changed and they expect the terms to still be honored now that they are back.

What terms? There are no terms. Someone drove them back. They retreated. That is all.

Humans, however, have completely forgotten about their treaty obligations and are likely breaking rules left and right without even knowing they are doing it.

Now we're in full blown Treaty status??? LOL ...there is no Treaty of the Wall, my friend.

Add to that the rewriting of history by the maesters, and a language barrier, and we have a Huge misunderstanding on our hands.

I agree the maesters have done everyone a disservice, and the Others speak a different language, but they have made no effort to communicate, other than to mock and laugh at Men they torture.

---------------

Where is the dishonor? Well, for starters, Arya's pack used other-worldly means to utterly destroy Waldrid, after watching her fill with fear. And she didn't even realize she had stumbled upon "their land." ..."Their land," despite them not being seen for hundreds of years. There would by now be distant cousins of Walders and Freys living all over the region in little tribes, and not one of them will have glimpsed an Ahai Wolf Pack in generations to warn young Waldrid about.

Yes! Again, perfect analogy. Imagine the war is over, and an agreement reached.

Well we would have to imagine that, wouldn't we. Because the war is obviously not over, and no agreement was ever reached.

You go into hibernation for a while, and when you wake up, your enemy has built settlements all over your land!!

...land that they have always build settlements on.

Wow, can you imagine how the WW must feel when they realize this?! How Arry would feel?

The current people living and ranging on WW lands don't know they are doing anything wrong...

And neither do we.

but the WW aren't wrong to want them gone either.

...no, they're just misunderstood

It sucks for the current clueless people, but really it's whatever generation failed to pass on the info that is to blame here.

Old Nan is passing the info along. Bran's Vision, and all of our experiences with Others seem to uphold that info. Haven't you ever thought about that expression used in the series, "may the Others take him!"? Where do you think it comes from? When someone says it about an annoying fellow, do you take it to mean they want the Others to take the fellow back to where he once belonged, or maybe, they want the Others to come take him to the disputed lands north of the Wall? No. They use it to mean they'd rather the person be dead and damned.

Which brings us to the grand finale... humans have forgotten some really, really important things over time.

Totally agree with that.

Unless they can find a way to retrieve this information and set things right, there is a good chance they will be wiped out by the WW.

The Others could well invade someday. Agreed. Time to carry some obsidian in your back pocket.

But IMO, this doesn't make the WW evil - they stuck to their end of the deal, after all.

What deal? Getting their butts kicked? But I'm sure wolfmaid would applaud you...LOL.

I mean no offense wolfmaid, just having a laugh :)

Even now, 5 books in, we haven't seen a single WW even attempt to cross the Wall. This may change, if people don't get their act together. So here's to hoping Bran is a quick study, and, importantly, finds a way to convey what he learns to other members of his race before it's too late.

Well, the realms of Men may only need one Last Hero. At least the north remembers, and that may be enough.

Well thought out post… nicely done,,,

[addicted to snow]

I couldn't agree with you more and a good indicator of why i believe "the cold/fog/mist" is another entity that inhabits the Wights.Or somebody else's Shadow who's above the WWs.The thing that all of these have in common is the primal rawness i talked about in the OP,you see it in Cat,Mel's babies and the wights and i don't think they are the only ones.If what happens at Harrenthal is true then those are examples to of other shadows that kill.I definitely think Mel will try to do something,but so will Val to me its not a coincidence that both of them are at the Wall.In researching for my "those who sing" thread i discovered that the elements of ice and fire actually do have a song and i think they sing together for the first time in attampt to heal Jon.Wheter that song will be harmonious or not will affect Jon.I actually think that ice and fire are two sides of the same coin,both can burn and i have feeling that both humors will play a part in Jon's recovery( because i don't think he's dead ofcourse). But i have no doubt that he will be some kind of a shadow.My guess a new version of the Shrouded Lord.

GRRM is not going to use anything new to bring back Jon, he will utilize a method for which he has already established… Probably be brought back in the same manner Khal Drogo was...

[addicted to snow]

A few of us includng myself believe that Cold hands was a skinchanger that somehow reclaimed his body after it was reanimated.It's kind of a loophole seeing as his body technically wasn't dead anymore.You can find details here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107297-heresy-108/ where we discussed him.

This theory seems highly speculative...

[Black Crow]

GRRM is not going to use anything new to bring back Jon, he will utilize a method for which he has already established… Probably be brought back in the same manner Khal Drogo was...

I agree that we're not going to see anything particularly clever in this, a Coldhands perhaps, but not a Drogo. Leaving aside the remark about Jon Snow being pursued through the forest, he has also said that that Jon will one day learn who his mother was, which whatever the truth and circumstances implies a degree of cognitive function way above that of the re-awaked Khal Drogo.

[Black Crow]

1. I agree, it's possible they didn't mean to let Gared go. We don't really have evidence either way. But if they didn't mean to let him go and he escaped anyway, this makes them seem slightly incompetent IMO.

Sure, totally agree with that. We have been shown that they are not without weaknessess.

I dislike reviving large posts in order to comment on a couple of points, so I'll take them out piece by piece. Gared is odd. The prologue serves to introduce us to the Others [who we only later learn are also the white walkers] who are portrayed as a bit Otherworldy and ultimately as ruthless killers. The first point is reinforced by Ser Waymar rising from the dead to kill Will.

But Gared escapes. Why?

The short answer is that he then reappears in the next [and first] chapter to be executed for desertion, which in its way is even more of a mystery than his escape, because he dies without saying anything [in text at least, although the show is different] about the white walkers. Now I'm all for keeping things simple in this business, but is it significant that the dead direwolf [stabbed with an antler bone dagger?] should turn up just at that same time and only a short distance away. Hence the theory that Gared was spared [and got over or through the Wall] for a purpose.

[Black Crow]

On the non-humanoid, Other side, I propose we have:

1. The Original Others or "Others Proper" who first came in the Long Night thousands of years ago, and who we have yet to see in the books (though might have glimpsed some in the show). They have genders, as you point out a female seduced Night's King. They use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (like the Last Hero). And, most importantly IMO, they are intelligent enough to plan a very successful invasion of the Hundred Kingdoms of Men that was only thwarted by the Last Hero.

The White Walkers move like white shadows through the woods, and ride upon dead horses and the like. We have seen them in the books. They hunt as we saw Waymar hunted. While they display organization and hierarchy, they do not seem to be as intelligent as say, Tyrion. I believe the Original Others create WW. Heretics like to remind me GRRM only refers to this class alone as, "Others." And I remind fellow heretics that his characters do not make this distinction, and they know far less about the Others than GRRM does.

There is absolutely no evidence in text or SSM that the white walkers who first came in the Long Night and those currently stravaighing about in the woods are different.

[Black Crow]

So with this in mind, and the fact that it's location is more of a geographic convenience, how can it be an official border that denotes land ownership? Humans and other races have lived both north and south of it for hundreds of years.

South of the Wall, Wun Wun is hanging out with one of the sexiest women on planetos, when he should be able to kick his feet up on his giant ottoman and watch some football back at his home north of the Wall. But he can't. Why? Because he is being displaced from his traditional homeland by the Others. ...though if it were me, I'd sooner stay wherever Val is LOL

There can be many peoples within a realm. There's nothing to prevent people living in the Otherlands beyond the Realms of Men so long as they obey the local rules - until now. As to the Giants, while they are clearly not human they have fallen out with the Singers [the brothers and bane business] and therefore find it prudent to join in the exodus, because the white walkers are not a third party but the servants, the changeling janissaries, the enforcers if you like, of the three-fingered tree huggers.

[wolfmaid7]

Well thought out post nicely done,,,

Oh ATS,you are clear water.Do the poster justice and atlease read his entire post.

GRRM is not going to use anything new to bring back Jon, he will utilize a method for which he has already established Probably be brought back in the same manner Khal Drogo was...

If you read my post,you would see i never said GRRM would use something new.I said his "outcome" would be new and i totally believe that based on forshadowing.I don't care how,i care about outcome.But, to restate my belief.I do not believe Jon is dead and is no need of resurrection. I believe he is in a coma and what will take place will happen when he is finally forced to finish that crypt dream.He will be different yes but not Unjon.

This theory seems highly speculative...

Given CH's interaction with the Elk of unbelieable size and sense i think so.As to the rest about CH's not being eaten,it is speculation ..A good one.

It's easy to let our memories be skewed in the course of debate as everyone remembers bits and pieces that suit their arguments. I know I sure do that LOL, and have already been called out for it here, so let's review the end of Ser Waymar real quick...

Quote (I've added numerals to reference each paragraph, other than that, it's unedited):

I. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Others danced with pale blue light.

II. Then Royces parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymars fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

III. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

IV. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. For Robert! he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Others parry was almost lazy.

V. When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

VI. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

VII. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Let's let that sink in. Read it again if you have time. Then again... and again.... lol

My thoughts on each paragraph:

I. Even the sound of the exchange is an unfair advantage for the Others. Imagine trying to fight while the screech of this clangor rattled your eardrums to the point of agony. Ser Waymar has the disadvantage of needing to breathe and having muscles that fatigue with exertion, the Other does not. And it is so cold in this near proximity to the Other that his sword has begun to freeze over, despite being swung about. Pretty, pretty, pretty Cold. (I hope you are a Larry David fan haha)

II. The mortal wound. But not a quick death. He can bleed out for a nice long time while the Others have their fun.

III. I actually forgot about this line. Wow. I think this is where wolfmaid thinks he's saying "Well fought, Ser" LOL. I underestimated the Others' cruelty. Full disclosure, I am a field linguist. I learn and document indigenous languages that are in danger of being lost, teach them, and train teachers to teach them. I deal with language acquisition issues everyday. Even without speaking 'Other-ese', it is quite easy for Will to comprehend their tone of voice. People learn this first in a language-immersion environment. So in this paragraph, Ser Crackles mocks Waymar. Pretty harsh in my book. And hard to interpret otherwise. (It's not like Ser Crackles was trying to hand Waymar a loaf of warm bread the whole time). Not only did Will comprehend the mockery, but Waymar did as well, as we see in the next paragraph.

IV. He found his fury. He would not be mocked in death. He will die, but at least he wanted to die with his pride. His sword is now covered in frost, but he swings it in anger nonetheless - for the first time, for the last time. The Other's tone of voice is confirmed in his body language - with his lackadaisical parry of Ser Waymar's only offensive strike. A parry, in Fencing, is a defensive action to deflect an opponent's attack. Ser Waymar put his whole life into that single attack. Ser Crackles yawns and deflects it with a shrug. I exaggerate here a bit to show how this type of parry would appear if it were say, Ilyn vs Jaime (which is a great analogy for the prologue, if not an homage to himself by GRRM). I see no way Will misunderstood the body language of the Other. He knew sword play, and I think we can safely assume he was trained at it by Ser Alliser. It's not hard to tell when someone is playing with a doomed opponent.

V. Yeah, not seeing the level playing field.

VI. Here is our scream. Waymar's frozen longsword now shatters like a rain of needles - amazing and vivid imagery - and these needles fly into Waymar's eyes. I do a lot of woodworking and it hurts like hell when this happens with sawdust. If it were a rain of steel needles, I think it would hurt a lot more. Though, it wouldn't kill me. It would just be terrifying and excruciating. I'm still not seeing how this is not cruel.

VII. Ah, the silent signal. I think the silent signal is given when Waymar yields. He has dropped his sword, and is now kneeling when the watchers move forward together. Ser Waymar is very much alive, and could remain so for quite some time as he bleeds out, or could be maestered in a jiffy. And no doubt, when Will hears their voices and laughter, wolfmaid believes they are lamenting the dead and what Will is misinterpreting their wails of sorrow for the fate of poor Ser Waymar. Just kidding wolfmaid :)

So now that we've reviewed, let's return to your point:

I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly.

Wounded, but not killed. Tortured with needles of steel in his eyes, but not dead. He was not lying down in the snow, bleeding out, barely conscious. He was kneeling, shrieking, and covering his eyes as blood welled between his fingers. The watchers were silent as they came forward, and silent still as they sliced him to ribbons, but I doubt Ser Waymar stopped shrieking at this point, in some chivalrous display of respect for a "duel" well fought.

It sounds a bit disturbing to me. Even though he didn't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings for Royce, Will shut his eyes because he couldn't bear to watch the butchery any longer.

6. I am going to leave the word honor out of it, as I think this is where much of our disagreement originates. Maybe a better way of putting it is to say that killing an armed intruder- and a member of an enemy race- on your lands is not an unusually cruel or evil response in the world of ice and fire. Are there kinder ways to handle the situation? Certainly. The Starks took in Osha, a wildling on their lands...but it was a hard decision for Robb. He could just as well have killed her, and many other lords probably would have.

To be honest, I'm bewildered by the interpretation of the Others having any sense of honor, or a code of conduct that promotes fair rules of engagement. As the murder of Ser Waymar illustrates in graphic detail, that is the one thing they clearly do not possess.

To your example of Osha:

If the Starks surrounded her while Robb stuck a spear in her side, stripped her of her dignity, mocked her teats, filled her eyes with rock salt, and had her kneel before him -- then Jon, Luwin, Rodrik, Theon, and Jory come forward and whip her as she weeps and bleeds to death -- then it would be very hard for me to wrap my head around how the Starks of Winterfell abide by a code of conduct some consider honorable as her body rises and strangles her little sister...

I'm not sure once I step on a spider that there's much left for anyone else to step on, lol.... but I see your point. Again, maybe instead of honor, we can say they do have some sort of code of conduct. Like Dexter, maybe. The fact that Ser Puddles didn't seem to expect Sam or Grenn to intervene makes me think that they see a duel as one-on-one, at least until the outcome is clear. Otherwise he wouldn't have turned his back on two NW men.

If Dexter mocked them for trespassing, filled their eyes with toothpicks, watched them kneel before him... then had the neighbors come over and shoot him full of holes, then yes - totally like Dexter

Ser Puddles demonstrates (thankfully, IMO) that they can be killed, they are not without weakness, and they can be disarmed. If they can be disarmed, then they can be unarmed. But we have yet to see a WW approach a man unarmed. Strange, for such honorable folk :cool4:

I think what I'm mostly trying to get at is that they are not an evil killing machine (unlike Mel's shadow babies for example),

I think I've disproven that they are kind, just killers (as say, Ned doing his duty and serving the King's justice). But I would agree they are not machines. I think they are complicated, complex, sentient, organized, and led.

but that if one spoke their language and remembered the terms of the last peace, perhaps one could understand their motivations and achieve peace once more.

Ever seen Mars Attacks? LOL

After all, there are tales of women sleeping with them in the past, so there must be some way to interact and communicate.

Well some guys don't care where they put it. :lol: I'm joking.

But that gets into my theory that we are dealing with three distinct types of non-humanoid races when characters in the book mention The Others (e.g., "May the Others take my sister").

On the humanoid side, we have Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants.

On the non-humanoid, Other side, I propose we have:

• The Original Others or "Others Proper" who first came in the Long Night thousands of years ago, and who we have yet to see in the books (though might have glimpsed some in the show). They have genders, as you point out a female seduced Night's King. They use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (like the Last Hero). And, most importantly IMO, they are intelligent enough to plan a very successful invasion of the Hundred Kingdoms of Men that was only thwarted by the Last Hero.
• The White Walkers move like white shadows through the woods, and ride upon dead horses and the like. We have seen them in the books. They hunt as we saw Waymar hunted. While they display organization and hierarchy, they do not seem to be as intelligent as say, Tyrion. I believe the Original Others create WW. Heretics like to remind me GRRM only refers to this class alone as, "Others." And I remind fellow heretics that his characters do not make this distinction, and they know far less about the Others than GRRM does.
• The Wights are the dead who rise. These are even less intelligent than WW, but do retain enough memory to hold a grudge. But who knows, they might be smart enough to guard a sky cell at the Eyrie.

I felt like i ran a marathon with this one....Soooo i wil reply to what i don't agree with.

1.Yeah. A long time. Thousands of years!!! That would be like Alexander the Great showing up on your doorstep, or a Pharaoh.

ME:We do have evidence in fact of this,lets start with Osha's statement: "North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the Children went, and the giants, and the other old races". (A Game of Thrones, Ch. 66). According to the "so call pact"(choking back laughter) the COTF were to retain one thing,The Standing Forests which would be the 'Haunted Forests" seeing as they couldn't have all their area back,they took what was neccssary for the Old Races to have.Given subtle nature of Old Nan's statement when Bran didn't interupt her,the WWs walking through the Woods( which you agree with by the way) is synonymous to winter.Because men didn't see them or the COTF for thousands of years doesn't mean they weren't present in their own land. Both the COTF and the WWs description prooves they are suited for their respective environment.So i dsagree with you on that point,sorry the NW were tresspassing and violating the agreement of the pact.

As to why the WWs would need land,you don't know what they need because that is not disclosed from their actions, they are on patrol.That is their job when it comes to that side of the Wall.A system built on balance needs to have them.As i said i think they are the Shadow of the Night's watch,doing the same thing they do except within their territory.

2. The Wall is not a border fence. It is a warning beacon to ensure that the people are not caught offguard by an invasion of Others, as happened in the Long Night.

I don't even know how to answer this, you do know someone took the time to weave spells into it right?And we know who it keeps out?The animated dead,remember them soooo know it's not just a warning beacon.

3.It's easy to let our memories be skewed in the course of debate as everyone remembers bits and pieces that suit their arguments. I know I sure do that LOL, and have already been called out for it here, so let's review the end of Ser Waymar real quick...

I. Even the sound of the exchange is an unfair advantage for the Others. Imagine trying to fight while the screech of this clangor rattled your eardrums to the point of agony. Ser Waymar has the disadvantage of needing to breathe and having muscles that fatigue with exertion, the Other does not. And it is so cold in this near proximity to the Other that his sword has begun to freeze over, despite being swung about. Pretty, pretty, pretty Cold. (I hope you are a Larry David fan haha).

ME: What's your point? I'm really trying to asertain what's your point in this? This has nothing to do with being fair or being on an even playing feel.One on one Ser Crackles was a better fighter.Waymar chose to fight him and he died.The 7 kingdoms had soldiers Ageon had Dragons...and? I'm a black belt your a brown belt if we choose to fight knowing i have a black belt if you get licks don't complain.

II. The mortal wound. But not a quick death. He can bleed out for a nice long time while the Others have their fun.

ME: I read this and :rofl: so let me get this straight, first of all the above didn't happen because they killed him quickly.Second if that didn't happen Wil would have attempted to carry Waymar in which case he would have died,risen and killed Will anyway.If Will had jumped out the tree after the WWs left taken the sword and boogied.He would have been alive,and that is a fact.Human condition at its best....fear kept him in the tree that long.

III. I actually forgot about this line. Wow. I think this is where wolfmaid thinks he's saying "Well fought, Ser" LOL. I underestimated the Others' cruelty. Full disclosure, I am a field linguist. I learn and document indigenous languages that are in danger of being lost, teach them, and train teachers to teach them. I deal with language acquisition issues everyday. Even without speaking 'Other-ese', it is quite easy for Will to comprehend their tone of voice. People learn this first in a language-immersion environment. So in this paragraph, Ser Crackles mocks Waymar. Pretty harsh in my book. And hard to interpret otherwise. (It's not like Ser Crackles was trying to hand Waymar a loaf of warm bread the whole time). Not only did Will comprehend the mockery, but Waymar did as well, as we see in the next paragraph.

ME: You are going to get called again Ser,are you sure you are Linquist? Or you are intentionally misrepresnting what i said which in my book is even worse as its unsporting in debates. I do not speak WWs,my exact words were "he could have been saying,well fought" because no one knows their language,meanings behind tones etc.Wrong again,you sure you are a Linquist,then you know about Tonal Language.As a Global Health Practioner i have worked and lived in several countries.From the urban cities of California to remote villages of countries in Africa,South America and Asia and i got to tell you our tonal language is not all the same,so that is incorrect.In this story language form the inhabitant is different.When the wolves howeld outside of Bran's window Cat couldn't stand it because it "sounded" like despair. To Robb it sounded like music. Jon identified the music in Wun's language even though it was gutteral. You should vist my thread, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110263-those-who-sing/.Crackling ice from Will's point of view sounded like mocking,but to those individuals who can disern the music in the nature of that crackling might call it praise....You should read that thread,there is a language beyond human words being utilized in this story it is called "the music of the spheres" it is nature.Did you even once consider based on GRRM's world that tonal language would me as much as a challenged,especially those not inclined to disern what the true nature of that language is?

IV. He found his fury. He would not be mocked in death. He will die, but at least he wanted to die with his pride. His sword is now covered in frost, but he swings it in anger nonetheless - for the first time, for the last time. The Other's tone of voice is confirmed in his body language - with his lackadaisical parry of Ser Waymar's only offensive strike. A parry, in Fencing, is a defensive action to deflect an opponent's attack. Ser Waymar put his whole life into that single attack. Ser Crackles yawns and deflects it with a shrug. I exaggerate here a bit to show how this type of parry would appear if it were say, Ilyn vs Jaime (which is a great analogy for the prologue, if not an homage to himself by GRRM). I see no way Will misunderstood the body language of the Other. He knew sword play, and I think we can safely assume he was trained at it by Ser Alliser. It's not hard to tell when someone is playing with a doomed opponent.

Me: Missing the point completely again they are in a duel,one swordsman IS going to be better that is not the issue.I'm sorry but i don't see the point of this.

V. Yeah, not seeing the level playing field.

Me: Again, YOU are putting words in people's mouth and you're deflecting the issue and the point.What does fair have to do with this? Both fighters came as they are,bearing weapons and armor particular to them,that's all that matters.It was a one on one fight and Waymar lost.

VI. Here is our scream. Waymar's frozen longsword now shatters like a rain of needles - amazing and vivid imagery - and these needles fly into Waymar's eyes. I do a lot of woodworking and it hurts like hell when this happens with sawdust. If it were a rain of steel needles, I think it would hurt a lot more. Though, it wouldn't kill me. It would just be terrifying and excruciating. I'm still not seeing how this is not cruel.

Me: Seriously????

VII. Ah, the silent signal. I think the silent signal is given when Waymar yields. He has dropped his sword, and is now kneeling when the watchers move forward together. Ser Waymar is very much alive, and could remain so for quite some time as he bleeds out, or could be maestered in a jiffy. And no doubt, when Will hears their voices and laughter, wolfmaid believes they are lamenting the dead and what Will is misinterpreting their wails of sorrow for the fate of poor Ser Waymar. Just kidding wolfmaid

ME: I call :bs: as the text pointed out and you pointed out Waymar already had a mortal wound.To leave him like that WOULD be cruel to him and to Will.That was mercy.

Sum: When you didn't misrepresent or misquote what i said you contradicted yourself by first correctlly asserting Waymar recieved a mortal wound,then saying he was very much alive.You didn't look at what could have happened if Ser Crackles,Ser Puddles and the quartet left a mortally wounded Waymar to be carried off by Will. You failed to consider Will's own fear that kept him huddled to a tree for so long a time, when he finally decended Waymar was good and ready to rise from the dead.Finally,going on an on about how the fight was unfair didn't take away from the fact that these two warriors engaged in a fight until one was clearly defeated.Somebody is always going to be better,stronger and have superior weaponry and skills.It doesn't make it unfair it makes it not your day.Will was too scared and the WWs whose way you don't know did not engage until the end to administer a quick and merciful death. I can say that because the alternative was he would have died horribly and in more pain slowly being carried off by Will.

I can say what they did was honerable,because when the identical thing happened with Sam and Co and Ser Puddles it didn't play out the same way. GRRM took the time to construct identical scence where two different cultures had different responses to the same situation.Removing bias about the WWs and looking at that scene "objectivley" it is crystal clear who behaved in a manner that was more honorable( if you wan't to judge by men's standards).Furthermore,GRRM has set a precedence in his books whereby his characters on several occassions had to admit,the stories told about life and creatures beyond the Wall at their wetnurses breasts are not entirely true.We have to consider why GRRM have written these contrast,maybe to show monsters and dishonor looks like us too or is us.

What Pact getting their butts kicked?

Final note: Men have their pages where they construct a history that makes no sense under scrutiny ,the Old Races have the trees and their recollection will be more accurate.As my mom would say sense always shows BS to be just that.Given the difficulty the 200 NW members had on the Fist;extreme cold that made breathing almost impossible,a blizzard that made it difficult to see,a Wight horde that brought all this crap with them and a thirst to rip humans to shred.Keep telling yourself during the Longnight the NW "rode" out in 100ft of snow in conditions worst than the Fist against and army of dead which included Giants,wolves,bears etc that outnumbered them considerably and beat them back to the Lands of always winter......Yeah that's how it went down :drunk:

[JNR]

* The Long Night happened a reported four thousand years after the First Men originally invaded

I would honestly be stunned if the "official" timeline was accurate. This is not a non-diegetic timeline issuing from the author, it is a timeline written by characters in the books based on the extremely scarce information they have to hand.

That's true, of course, but it's true of virtually everything we discuss in Heresy. If we're going to assume the timeline is completely inaccurate, and that we can simply make up another that suits our theories better, why not do that across the board with all such conflicting information?

So much time and energy has been spent discussing the Night's King, for instance, in exhaustive detail. Why not simply say: "How could such a character possibly be remembered at all? He never existed, or he was totally different from the version in the story. Forget him."

But instead we choose to believe he did exist, and he was LC of the Watch, and so on. We then examine in detail the various possibilities associated with him. We wonder how it's possible he could have assessed a woman's beauty from atop the Wall... and we conclude that indeed, as GRRM has told us, the Wall was nowhere near 700 feet tall at that time. Well, that falls right into place. There's a consistency at work there.

Similarly, we can look at the fact that the Others are said to have come from the uttermost North, and are not associated with the South at all. We can then compare that to the fact that the Andals are said to have invaded the South, and never to have succeeded in invading the North at all. It's a complete dichotomy.

And so we can comfortably conclude that the Long Night did not happen as a result of the Andals' invasion. Instead, it happened far earlier. Which accords with what the Godslayer explicitly tells us: that everything we know about the Long Night was set down by septons that came with the Andals thousands of years later. Here, too, we find a consistency at work.

It's because of the long list of such internal consistencies (and I could write thousands of words on this topic without effort) that I am very reluctant to just toss out the timeline, move the Andals up thousands of years, or (as some have suggested) move them back to 10K years in the past so they can be present for the Pact, etc.

[JNR]

Jon did indeed have that dream, but the other, which was one of the House of the Undying visions featured a blue-eyed king with no shadow. He was standing in the bow of a ship and is generally reckoned to be Stannis since his shadow has gone walkabout.

Actually, the guy who stood in the prow of a ship was the sadly-smiling corpse... not the king who cast no shadow.

There is absolutely no evidence in text or SSM that the white walkers who first came in the Long Night and those currently stravaighing about in the woods are different.

Emphatically, :agree: (and it's not terribly often Black Crow and I emphatically agree about anything).

[wolfmaid7]

This is where I disagree with you an BC and I agree with VOTFM.The conversation Bran and Old Nan had suggests that they are different. From Nan's tone and the flow of her tale says the WWs routinely move through the

Woods and the Others came for the first time in the Longnight.I mean why bother to have this at all, even write it in the story if they are the same thing!