Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Voice]

As a professional writer i know exactly what querulously means

Truly mean no offense BC, but it does seem like you were are oversimplifying that part of their exchange. George doesn't need a pat on the back from me, but he isn't a very simple writer. There's layers upon layers in this passage.

and both you and Wolfmaid are chasing shadows of your own

LOL

There is no evidence in either the books or SSMs that there is any difference between the white walkers of old and the present ones

Well I pointed out quite a few distinct characteristics that are in the books, attributed to the Others, that we have yet to see. We have seen the creatures that fit the profile for the white walker type. I'm not saying they're another species, but clearly there is another class of Other.

and the reason why this exchange was written in was to explain Mormont's earlier reference to white walkers.

Its as simple as that.

Really? I think most readers would disagree with that. I have a hunch we'll be seeing more and more of the WW, and more and more explanations as to their origins and purpose. And I don't think all of that will just be to keep reminding readers of what the heck the Ol' Bear meant.

The North isn't simple.

[Voice]

I think I'm going to answer this in parts, so as not to overwhelm myself. And I will stick with the blue, hahaha.... WW sympathizer all the way! Here goes.

LOL

We have no evidence the WW have a rightful claim to any lands, or ever have. If we cite Old Nan, they first came after the First Men were already in Westeros. Which to me, means they are not one of the ancient indigenous races. They are old, but not even as old as the First Men.

Well it depends. If their coming is cyclical, then they could have been emerging every 8,000 years for a long, long time. The first time they were seen was only the first time the First Men saw them, because they weren't around yet for the previous long night. We don't know if the Children had encountered them previously.

That is a pretty big If, but I think it is likely to come to pass.

For me, it doesn't matter either way because the First Men or LH or AA or CotF or a combination thereof defeated them.

And if some second pact was made, which for some reason wasn't documented by the Maesters of the Citadel, or GRRM anywhere in the books, the infamous Wet Nurses of Westeros succeeded in their elaborate plot to erase all memory of Pact #2 and replace it with a crazy story about a hero. And that, may be the real struggle for the dawn. The Others vs the Wet Nurses :)

If evidence emerges that they are rightful owners, then I will cede the point and agree the squatters are obligated to move, no matter how ignorant or innocent they may be in the matter.

Fair enough. tWoW will settle the matter, one way or another.

It's hard to get used to having a debate with someone who is reasonable LOL

Nonetheless, this begs the question of why a WW would need land in the first place. They do not seem to need food or water, or even shelter.

You know, I have often wondered about this. I've seen it used as an argument for why they are not an invading army- b/c what would they do with all that land, turn it into more winter wasteland? How would that help them? They have NO reason to "conquer" anything, since as you said, they have almost no "needs." In fact, the only thing we know they actively seem to want (need?) are Craster's babies.

I think they just want to cover the world in darkness and Ice. Sounds like paradise, if you're a snowman. Or maybe the poor Craster-bastards are just trying to get their hands on some fine Harbor Gold?

So yes, good point- I'm not sure why they would be "territorial" about the land itself. Maybe they normally aren't (assuming they don't bother the CotF or the giants), but due to their history with men they don't want them anywhere near where they live.

Bingo. It wasn't built to be a border. The Wall is not a border fence. It is a warning beacon to ensure that the people are not caught offguard by an invasion of Others, as happened in the Long Night. And as we have seen, it is quite effective as such. It is not an effective border, as we learned from Leaf's anthropological expedition among the apes of Westeros, and Ygritte and Mance's many tales of free folk going south at will. It is an obstacle, and an inconvenience, but not an impasse.

But why would they have warded it if it wasn't meant to be a barrier? I agree that the men on the Wall are the Night's Watch, and their job is to "wake the sleepers"... yet they are also the "sword in the darkness" and the "shield that guards the realms of men", both of which imply a protective function.

It's not an effective border against humans or CotF, but the fact that Coldhands couldn't cross the Black Gate suggests that it may be a very effective barrier against the undead.

They're just an alarum system. After the first invasion of Others, people didn't want to be caught off guard. Quite useful in case, say by some crazy turn of events, the realm forgot what kinds of crazy cats were chillin on the north side. And it would be pretty messed up to make them look for WW without some protection. Dragonsteel swords to take down Others, dismember wights, and some dragonglass to melt down the white walkers.

So with this in mind, and the fact that it's location is more of a geographic convenience, how can it be an official border that denotes land ownership? Humans and other races have lived both north and south of it for hundreds of years.

But if it's not a border, then why do they call it the edge of the world, and why do laws not apply north of the Wall? It seems the characters in the book, pretty much without exception, see the lands north of the Wall as separate from the rest of Westeros, an almost mythical place about which stories are told of snarks and grumpkins, where the old races may or may not still exist, and wildlings drink blood from human skulls, etc. There is an understanding that there are 'the 7 kingdoms', and then there are 'the lands beyond the Wall'. So even if it's not an official border, for all practical purposes it is treated like one.

South of the Wall, Wun Wun is hanging out with one of the sexiest women on planetos, when he should be able to kick his feet up on his giant ottoman and watch some football back at his home north of the Wall. But he can't. Why? Because he is being displaced from his traditional homeland by the Others. ...though if it were me, I'd sooner stay wherever Val is LOL

Do we know if the WW actually attack giants? Assuming they remember to use obsidian (as an old race, I would hope so), the giants would be a formidable foe for a human-sized WW. We also haven't seen any giant wights. I always assumed the giants are moving south b/c a long winter is coming and they don't want to starve (or be attacked by a wight. The wights seem pretty dumb and there are a lot of them around, they just might attack giants too)

I don't think we know for a certainty, but their numbers are low and they live in the far north. Could be they've been dealing with WWs for longer than men have. But who knows. When the free folk were coming south the giants among them seemed even more like refugees than the people did. But that's just how I took it. No doubt some here think the Giants are the real enemy and we should be trying to form an alliance with the Others instead LOL

Agreed, I'd choose Val over football any day!

But see, poor Wun Wun probably wants a gal with a nice long arms and horny feet.

[Black Crow]

Truly mean no offense BC, but it does seem like you were are oversimplifying that part of their exchange. George doesn't need a pat on the back from me, but he isn't a very simple writer. There's layers upon layers in this passage.

No offense taken :cool4:

However I still think that you and Wolfmaid are reading a non-existent significance into variant folk tales - to no good purpose. Just because GRRM is capable of writing layered passages of great complexity it doesn't follow that every dot and comma represents another rabbit-hole.

In this case we have the base tale of the Long Night and the Others - laying the ground for the red herring of the invasion supposedly to come - and an explanation of the white walkers. There's more than enough in there without pointlessly bringing in a third party whom GRRM has never spoken of or alluded to, or which has any ""value" in story terms.

[Black Crow]

Thank you for the clarification, Black Crow.

Location aside, does the grafting of hybrids seem plausible?

Its a good question because we do of course have that story from Old Nan about wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children. While I don't believe this to be literally true given the frozen nature of the white walkers I do think that this is a folklore explanation for the appearance of skinchangers and placing it as being contemporary with the Long Night. GRRM does place a great emphasis on the importance of blood and by extension bloodlines, but I'd be much more inclined to attribute this to the three-fingered tree huggers, who we know have this ability, rather than to the walkers or a supposed "original" others.

I'd be much more inclined to treat the whole business in those terms; that the Singers were responsible for the dark magic that raised the Wall, in the process unleashing the Long Night, and that during that Long Night they took the opportunity to take human children as changelings - the white walkers, and to pass on the skinchanging gene. Given the nature of the shadow transfer so to speak, placing the spirits or shadows of Craster's sons into icy bodies, its possible that the skinchanging gene was necessary to effect this in the first place. Hence the Stark connection to Winter.

[MaesterSam]

There is absolutely no evidence in text or SSM that the white walkers who first came in the Long Night and those currently stravaighing about in the woods are different.

Correct me if I'm wrong, VOTFM, but I think what was meant is not that we are dealing with different WW's than last time, but that last time an additional player was involved on the side of Ice- one we have not seen directly yet this time around (and who on the show are depicted as the NK + 12). This entity is whoever is in charge of the WW, who seem to be soldiers, not independent entities with their own goals and ideas. IIRC, you ascribe this role to the greenseers/CotF. Either one is plausible, IMO, as we have very little evidence so far of who is pulling the strings here.

ME:We do have evidence in fact of this,lets start with Osha's statement: "North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the Children went, and the giants, and the other old races". (A Game of Thrones, Ch. 66). According to the "so call pact"(choking back laughter) the COTF were to retain one thing,The Standing Forests which would be the 'Haunted Forests" seeing as they couldn't have all their area back,they took what was neccssary for the Old Races to have.Given subtle nature of Old Nan's statement when Bran didn't interupt her,the WWs walking through the Woods( which you agree with by the way) is synonymous to winter.Because men didn't see them or the COTF for thousands of years doesn't mean they weren't present in their own land. Both the COTF and the WWs description prooves they are suited for their respective environment.So i dsagree with you on that point,sorry the NW were tresspassing and violating the agreement of the pact.

Final note: Men have their pages where they construct a history that makes no sense under scrutiny ,the Old Races have the trees and their recollection will be more accurate.As my mom would say sense always shows BS to be just that.Given the difficulty the 200 NW members had on the Fist;extreme cold that made breathing almost impossible,a blizzard that made it difficult to see,a Wight horde that brought all this crap with them and a thirst to rip humans to shred.Keep telling yourself during the Longnight the NW "rode" out in 100ft of snow in conditions worst than the Fist against and army of dead which included Giants,wolves,bears etc that outnumbered them considerably and beat them back to the Lands of always winter......Yeah that's how it went down :drunk:

1. I like that you pointed this out - they clearly are perfectly adapted to living in the extreme cold. No other race is even close, which to me suggests they are the original (or at least very early) inhabitants of the far North.

2. Don't forget the ice spiders...lol. Yeah, this for me is the weakest part of the old legends. It seems extremely unlikely that after years of losing to the Others, a group just up and beat them back under conditions where even leaving your house was suicide (see the current situation at WF and in Stannis' camp, which isn't anywhere close to the extreme cold and perpetual darkness- and the ice spiders- described during the long night).

This argument is predicated on the assumption that the Others are a race in their own right, rather than a red herring. As I've observed, if the white walkers are Craster's sons they are not an invading army. They are created by magic for the purpose of spreading terror.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the Others end up being just a red herring I am going to be pretty disappointed. GRRM has been building them up since the prologue of Book 1. I agree there aren't enough of them to be an invading army, and they have no motivation to invade the south (that we know of). But someone likely is in charge of them, and if this ... entity... decides the south is to be invaded, then it could happen. We don't need a lot of WW for an invasion, an army of wights would do just fine. (Of course, whether the WW actually control the wights is not 100% clear, only implied by Old Nan).

The reason I disagree with the idea that they are just magical terrorists is that they have a language and emotions (they laugh, albeit at inappropriate times). The wights alone serve perfectly well to instill terror in a population, so why create another set of intelligent, sentient beings for the same purpose? It seems redundant IMO. Plus they aren't all that effective ... yes, they beat Royce, but he was just a kid really. Will points out earlier in the prologue that if Gared were to disobey Royce, in a fight he was sure Gared would win. So Royce is not some super skilled fighter, and he held his own against the WW for a while... Also, Sam kills one, and if the NW were armed with obsidian, the threat posed by the WW would diminish considerably. So if they were in fact "created" for the purpose of being scary unstoppable warriors, someone should tell their creator there is room for improvement.

The question of the white queen is also less of a mystery given the revelation of Craster's sons and here it is her very uniqueness which provides a possible answer. If the Others/white walkers were indeed a separate race then there should be more women, not just that one way back when. However as we've seen both in text and on screen the white walkers are not a distinct race but human changelings, latterly Craster's sons.

The point of this being that the sons were required to become warriors, but if they are made to order as it were there is no reason why a girl changeling should be taken and turned for the particular purpose of enchanting the Nights King - as Mel has done with Stannis.

Well yes, but we don't know that there aren't WW women back home in the lands of always winter. Maybe like humans they leave their women at home when they go to war. Armies are often all male, and really we have only seen a total of 7 WWs so far... it may be premature to assume there are no females.

That being said, given that they were originally called the Neverborn, I am not saying they have wives at home to play house with and make baby WWs. The making of new WWs seems to require human babies and/or possibly some other type of (blood?) sacrifice. This to me does not mean they are not a separate race. If GRRM had called them vampires instead, we all would see them as their own race, even if they still start out human as they seem to do.

Interesting point about them only taking the male babies. I wonder why that is? The wildlings have shown us that women can be very capable fighters, and I imagine that equipped with the armor, sword and other WW abilities, a female could be quite formidable. I still feel like the night's queen was likely different from the run-of-the-mill WWs we have seen, as she was said to be incredibly beautiful. The WWs in the prologue are described as "gaunt and hard as old bones". This to me doesn't sound particularly attractive. Plus there's the part where humans freeze to death if they spend time in the immediate vicinity of a WW, so unless they can turn off the cold somehow, again, it sounds like this lady was different from the rest.

[wolfmaid7]

No offense taken :cool4:

However I still think that you and Wolfmaid are reading a non-existent significance into variant folk tales - to no good purpose. Just because GRRM is capable of writing layered passages of great complexity it doesn't follow that every dot and comma represents another rabbit-hole.

In this case we have the base tale of the Long Night and the Others - laying the ground for the red herring of the invasion supposedly to come - and an explanation of the white walkers. There's more than enough in there without pointlessly bringing in a third party whom GRRM has never spoken of or alluded to, or which has any ""value" in story terms.

Just to restate BC, I'm not saying there is another third party involved that's not it at all, I'm just saying there is precedence whereby the human Wights were the Others of lengend.They are what came for the first time and because humans of the day had no clue the mysteries of this land because they never experienced the previous long night.

Nan's story and the seemless way the White Walkers are atributed even though they are not on the scene, even involved points to them being blamed for what The First Men couldn't explain in terms of what happened to their loved ones.

Exactly, how did they know that Popsicles raised the dead if that is something that can't be validated visually?

[Black Crow]

Different for the express purpose of latching on to Bran Stark the Nights King as Mel has latched on to Stannis. Its worth noting in this regard that we have a shrewd suspicion Mel is fire made flesh and yet avoids frying everyone she touches

[Black Crow]

Just to restate BC, I'm not saying there is another third party involved that's not it at all, I'm just saying there is precedence whereby the human Wights were the Others of lengend.They are what came for the first time and because humans of the day had no clue the mysteries of this land because they never experienced the previous long night.

Nan's story and the seemless way the White Walkers are atributed even though they are not on the scene, even involved points to them being blamed for what The First Men couldn't explain in terms of what happened to their loved ones.

Exactly, how did they know that Popsicles raised the dead if that is something that can't be validated visually?

I think, as I've said before, you're basing your theory on an apparent absence of an explicit episode in a picture we know is incomplete. Everything we've been told thus far speaks of the Others and white walkers being one and the same and raising the dead as wights. Nan is the one who said that the white walkers came for the first time during the Long Night, riding dead horses leading and leading armies of wights. The two are clearly distinguished and it doesn't rest with Old Nan because Sam finds the same thing in the Castle Black archives and the Wildlings likewise hold to the same.

That we have not yet seen a white walker [in the books at least] actually lead a charge or raise a dead man is not sufficient to overturn everything we've ever been told.

[Voice]

I think, as I've said before, you're basing your theory on an apparent absence of an explicit episode in a picture we know is incomplete. Everything we've been told thus far speaks of the Others and white walkers being one and the same and raising the dead as wights. Nan is the one who said that the white walkers came for the first time during the Long Night, riding dead horses leading and leading armies of wights. The two are clearly distinguished and it doesn't rest with Old Nan because Sam finds the same thing in the Castle Black archives and the Wildlings likewise hold to the same.

That we have not yet seen a white walker [in the books at least] actually lead a charge or raise a dead man is not sufficient to overturn everything we've ever been told.

Ah yes, but Bran clearly corrected Nan querulously :)

Do you agree that we have not seen this specific sort of Other/WW then BC? Ones who can be female, seductive, ride Ice Spiders, and/or use them for hunting enemies. I would also point out that some are described as having skin, while popsicles only have pale white flesh. I know this sort of argument, for you, would be one of semantics that over complicates the simplicity of the story, but I think word choice is important.

Can a white walker be female?

Was there nothing unique about the Others that came in the Long Night?

This is the core of my argument. We have seen the common variety white walkers. We have not seen any that resemble the Others in gender or behavior who came in the long night.

[Black Crow]

Bran was in a petulent mood, determined to be awkward, simple as that.

I don't agree that the present lot are different and I would say that [in agreement with Sam] what we have seen thus far is entirely consistent with the old stories.

The only substantive "difference" lies in the white lady, and as I posted above her apparent uniqueness is consistent with the Craster's sons revelation, ie; that far from being a separate race the white walkers are human changelings, and if she was indeed a walker and not a human dressed in white like Our Val, there's no reason why she couldn't have been turned for that particular "job".

Aside from the lack of evidence my major problem with the Others as a discrete race is fitting them into the story. Everything else in A Song of Ice and Fire is inter-related, yet we're asked to believe that the supposed greatest threat to mankind is something completely alien that comes from outside. Recognising the present lot as Craster's sons brings them into the story, because it means that they are being created and manipulated from within.

[Voice]

Bran was in a petulent mood, determined to be awkward, simple as that.

I don't agree that the present lot are different and I would say that [in agreement with Sam] what we have seen thus far is entirely consistent with the old stories.

The only substantive "difference" lies in the white lady, and as I posted above her apparent uniqueness is consistent with the Craster's sons revelation, ie; that far from being a separate race the white walkers are human changelings, and if she was indeed a walker and not a human dressed in white like Our Val, there's no reason why she couldn't have been turned for that particular "job".

Aside from the lack of evidence my major problem with the Others as a discrete race is fitting them into the story. Everything else in A Song of Ice and Fire is inter-related, yet we're asked to believe that the supposed greatest threat to mankind is something completely alien that comes from outside. Recognising the present lot as Craster's sons brings them into the story, because it means that they are being created and manipulated from within.

Sure I can respect that. I'm willing to concede they may not be a unique race per se, but it seems as though there are at least some who behave differently, some who stalk their enemies differently, have an affinity for Ice Spiders, and who may be both male and female. One woman may have been turned for that particular job, but I think it's actually simpler if the Others create WW using Craster's sons.

[Black Crow]

Simpler still if the real "Others" are the three-fingered tree-huggers.

[JNR]

This is the core of my argument. We have seen the common variety white walkers. We have not seen any that resemble the Others in gender or behavior who came in the long night.

There simply are no stories of white walkers varying in gender who came in the Long Night.

The nearest you can come to that would be the story of the Night's King -- a story that took place well after the Long Night was over, and which involved someone who was never even said to have been an Other. She was only said to have had blue eyes and pale, cold skin.

If you want to imagine blue eyes and pale, cold skin conclusively identify someone as an Other, it's your option to do so, of course, but I recommend you stay away from Scandinavia.

The spiders are an interesting discrepancy, but not at all conclusive either. We've seen the Others in exactly two scenes; it's really not enough to say "the current Others don't have spiders, and therefore the original Others are a different breed altogether."

Imagine if you had only ever seen humans on two occasions, and in both cases they were slicing oranges with a knife. Would you conclude that humans as a group don't have or use bicycles? Really?

[Frey family reunion]

I firmly believe that the White Walkers that we are currently seeing are constructs given life by the "shadows" of Craster's sons. But the one thing that kind of give me pause is this. Sam killed a White Walker with an obisidan dagger. Apparently the books of old indicate that the original (?) White Walkers were also vulnerable to obisidan. Hence the gifts from the children of obisidan daggers and arrows. If these current White Walkers are also vulnerable to the same material does this mean that the original White Walkers were also constructs (or golems) as opposed to an older separate race?

As for ice spiders, that is a strange part of the legend. Usually GRRM grounds his "monsters" with some sort of reality. There are actual prehistoric analogs for his direwolves, giant elks, giant lions, unicorns, and even Giants. And I believe that the White Walkers are actually composed of frozen air. I have a hard time wondering what the analog for an ice spider is.

I would note that Fritz Lieber named Fafhrd's ice witch of a mother an ice spider so I always assumed this was a bit of a nod to that. Also with the number of analogs to Odin (Jeor, Bloodraven, and I think Tormund), I think that it could be relevant that Odin rode an eight legged steed, Sleipner(sp?). Also going back to Jung, he believed that in our dreams, spiders often represented our Shadow, so if GRRM is indeed using Jung as an inspiration this could also be a nod to that.

But I have a hard time imagining how they are going to be portrayed in this series.

[MaesterSam]

That is a pretty big If, but I think it is likely to come to pass.

Well it depends. If their coming is cyclical, then they could have been emerging every 8,000 years for a long, long time. The first time they were seen was only the first time the First Men saw them, because they weren't around yet for the previous long night. We don't know if the Children had encountered them previously.

Oh good! Then we can re-negotiate land ownership once we have the answer. ;)

For me, it doesn't matter either way because the First Men or LH or AA or CotF or a combination thereof defeated them.

While I agree that the little bit of evidence we have suggests this, I am still a bit skeptical here. Mostly b/c we haven't heard anything about how the Others were defeated, which is an important detail given that when last we checked, they were kicking the First Men's butts all up and down the North. If it had been a clear victory, the legends shouldn't be so vague IMO. Also, why not wipe them out while they were on the run? Clearly, the "winners" were still terrified of them or they wouldn't have spent time, resources and manpower building a huge Wall (even if it's not a border, either way, it took a ton of work and I think we agree that its purpose was to help prevent a second massacre by the Others). If I've just defeated an enemy, and know there is a chance he will regain strength to the point of wiping out my species, I wouldn't just walk away and let him chill in the heart of winter.... But, I'm going to drop this for now, as the evidence, sparse as it it, is on your side.

And if some second pact was made, which for some reason wasn't documented by the Maesters of the Citadel, or GRRM anywhere in the books, the infamous Wet Nurses of Westeros succeeded in their elaborate plot to erase all memory of Pact #2 and replace it with a crazy story about a hero. And that, may be the real struggle for the dawn. The Others vs the Wet Nurses :)
So that's why Old Nan knows so much about the Long Night! I always wondered... :lol:

In looking at it from a different angle, you may be onto something here... I wonder if the smothering of the babies wasn't to prevent starvation, but to prevent the Others from taking them? On a large scale, such denial of necessary raw materials could have depleted their ranks...

Quote

It's hard to get used to having a debate with someone who is reasonable LOL

LOL. Tell me about it!

I think they just want to cover the world in darkness and Ice. Sounds like paradise, if you're a snowman. Or maybe the poor Craster-bastards are just trying to get their hands on some fine Harbor Gold?

Yes! I predict the wights and WWs at Hardhome (assuming they are both there, which may be premature) will steal the NW ships, sail down the coast of Westeros and attack Dorne. That'll be the big twist, the second long night will start in the south! And all b/c the Dornish make the best wine... (Tyrion, of course, is the Great Other - the only leader who would approve of such a plan).

They're just an alarum system. After the first invasion of Others, people didn't want to be caught off guard. Quite useful in case, say by some crazy turn of events, the realm forgot what kinds of crazy cats were chillin on the north side. And it would be pretty messed up to make them look for WW without some protection. Dragonsteel swords to take down Others, dismember wights, and some dragonglass to melt down the white walkers.

This to me is one of the biggest puzzles in this series. How could people just forget? Forget the enemy that almost wiped out the species... forget why you built a 700 foot wall, 300 miles across, and have been manning it for 8,000 years.... forget how to kill them. And it's one thing for the average joe to forget, but the NW??? That was their only job- prevent a second attack by the Others. How is there not some old dusty cache of obsidian weapons stored in some back room, unused for millennia but there just in case? And why do almost none of the old books mention the Others? Something is fishy here...

Also, on another note, I was just re-reading some of the legends and it occurred to me the LH most likely wasn't AA- b/c it is mentioned how he left with a sword, a horse, a dog and 12 companions... and that it was so cold that when we went to use his sword, it shattered (sound familiar?). So this sword clearly was not Lightbringer then... and it also wasn't obsidian. Which means at the time of the LH, people still didn't know how to kill the WWs, and that was toward the end of the long night. Even though the CotF had been giving them obsidian weapons for years. Didn't anyone ever try to use one?? Without the Children's tribute, I would buy that it never occurred to anyone to use obsidian as a weapon, but by the time they sent the LH to find the Children, it might have occurred to someone to try using the Children's weapons that they already had sitting around. Weird.

Or maybe... the WWs weren't what the LH was worried about? :cool4:

I don't think we know for a certainty, but their numbers are low and they live in the far north. Could be they've been dealing with WWs for longer than men have. But who knows. When the free folk were coming south the giants among them seemed even more like refugees than the people did. But that's just how I took it. No doubt some here think the Giants are the real enemy and we should be trying to form an alliance with the Others instead LOL

Now you're starting to think like me... lol. I must admit, I would enjoy it immensely if the Others ended up helping in the fight against Dany and the fire priests that are burning up the land and its inhabitants. But this seems unlikely, even to me. As for the giants- we haven't heard any mention of them during the long night, which suggests to me that they were more or less left alone. But I admit that's pure speculation, based not on evidence but lack thereof. :P

But see, poor Wun Wun probably wants a gal with a nice long arms and horny feet.

Well if he had one of those at home he should have brought her with him...

[wolfmaid7]

I firmly believe that the White Walkers that we are currently seeing are constructs given life by the "shadows" of Craster's sons. But the one thing that kind of give me pause is this. Sam killed a White Walker with an obisidan dagger. Apparently the books of old indicate that the original (?) White Walkers were also vulnerable to obisidan. Hence the gifts from the children of obisidan daggers and arrows. If these current White Walkers are also vulnerable to the same material does this mean that the original White Walkers were also constructs (or golems) as opposed to an older separate race?

As for ice spiders, that is a strange part of the legend. Usually GRRM grounds his "monsters" with some sort of reality. There are actual prehistoric analogs for his direwolves, giant elks, giant lions, unicorns, and even Giants. And I believe that the White Walkers are actually composed of frozen air. I have a hard time wondering what the analog for an ice spider is.

I would note that Fritz Lieber named Fafhrd's ice witch of a mother an ice spider so I always assumed this was a bit of a nod to that. Also with the number of analogs to Odin (Jeor, Bloodraven, and I think Tormund), I think that it could be relevant that Odin rode an eight legged steed, Sleipner(sp?). Also going back to Jung, he believed that in our dreams, spiders often represented our Shadow, so if GRRM is indeed using Jung as an inspiration this could also be a nod to that.

But I have a hard time imagining how they are going to be portrayed in this series.

What's weird is the NW isn't the only ones suffering Amnesia,the WWs apparently,forgot or should i say whoever made them forgot that Obsidian kills them.They might have checked that particular weakness in this batch.I swear it just keeps getting dumber and dumber.But i agree with you and BC here FFR they seem to be actual Shadows and i must say thank you for the Jung parallel i really like that because when viewed through the scope of what we are talking about now definitely seems to apply.

That is a pretty big If, but I think it is likely to come to pass.

Well it depends. If their coming is cyclical, then they could have been emerging every 8,000 years for a long, long time. The first time they were seen was only the first time the First Men saw them, because they weren't around yet for the previous long night. We don't know if the Children had encountered them previously.

Oh good! Then we can re-negotiate land ownership once we have the answer. ;)

For me, it doesn't matter either way because the First Men or LH or AA or CotF or a combination thereof defeated them.

While I agree that the little bit of evidence we have suggests this, I am still a bit skeptical here. Mostly b/c we haven't heard anything about how the Others were defeated, which is an important detail given that when last we checked, they were kicking the First Men's butts all up and down the North. If it had been a clear victory, the legends shouldn't be so vague IMO. Also, why not wipe them out while they were on the run? Clearly, the "winners" were still terrified of them or they wouldn't have spent time, resources and manpower building a huge Wall (even if it's not a border, either way, it took a ton of work and I think we agree that its purpose was to help prevent a second massacre by the Others). If I've just defeated an enemy, and know there is a chance he will regain strength to the point of wiping out my species, I wouldn't just walk away and let him chill in the heart of winter.... But, I'm going to drop this for now, as the evidence, sparse as it it, is on your side.

And if some second pact was made, which for some reason wasn't documented by the Maesters of the Citadel, or GRRM anywhere in the books, the infamous Wet Nurses of Westeros succeeded in their elaborate plot to erase all memory of Pact #2 and replace it with a crazy story about a hero. And that, may be the real struggle for the dawn. The Others vs the Wet Nurses :)

So that's why Old Nan knows so much about the Long Night! I always wondered... :lol:

In looking at it from a different angle, you may be onto something here... I wonder if the smothering of the babies wasn't to prevent starvation, but to prevent the Others from taking them? On a large scale, such denial of necessary raw materials could have depleted their ranks...

Quote

It's hard to get used to having a debate with someone who is reasonable LOL

LOL. Tell me about it!

I think they just want to cover the world in darkness and Ice. Sounds like paradise, if you're a snowman. Or maybe the poor Craster-bastards are just trying to get their hands on some fine Harbor Gold?

Yes! I predict the wights and WWs at Hardhome (assuming they are both there, which may be premature) will steal the NW ships, sail down the coast of Westeros and attack Dorne. That'll be the big twist, the second long night will start in the south! And all b/c the Dornish make the best wine... (Tyrion, of course, is the Great Other - the only leader who would approve of such a plan).

They're just an alarum system. After the first invasion of Others, people didn't want to be caught off guard. Quite useful in case, say by some crazy turn of events, the realm forgot what kinds of crazy cats were chillin on the north side. And it would be pretty messed up to make them look for WW without some protection. Dragonsteel swords to take down Others, dismember wights, and some dragonglass to melt down the white walkers.

This to me is one of the biggest puzzles in this series. How could people just forget? Forget the enemy that almost wiped out the species... forget why you built a 700 foot wall, 300 miles across, and have been manning it for 8,000 years.... forget how to kill them. And it's one thing for the average joe to forget, but the NW??? That was their only job- prevent a second attack by the Others. How is there not some old dusty cache of obsidian weapons stored in some back room, unused for millennia but there just in case? And why do almost none of the old books mention the Others? Something is fishy here...

Also, on another note, I was just re-reading some of the legends and it occurred to me the LH most likely wasn't AA- b/c it is mentioned how he left with a sword, a horse, a dog and 12 companions... and that it was so cold that when we went to use his sword, it shattered (sound familiar?). So this sword clearly was not Lightbringer then... and it also wasn't obsidian. Which means at the time of the LH, people still didn't know how to kill the WWs, and that was toward the end of the long night. Even though the CotF had been giving them obsidian weapons for years. Didn't anyone ever try to use one?? Without the Children's tribute, I would buy that it never occurred to anyone to use obsidian as a weapon, but by the time they sent the LH to find the Children, it might have occurred to someone to try using the Children's weapons that they already had sitting around. Weird.

Or maybe... the WWs weren't what the LH was worried about? :cool4:

I don't think we know for a certainty, but their numbers are low and they live in the far north. Could be they've been dealing with WWs for longer than men have. But who knows. When the free folk were coming south the giants among them seemed even more like refugees than the people did. But that's just how I took it. No doubt some here think the Giants are the real enemy and we should be trying to form an alliance with the Others instead LOL

Now you're starting to think like me... lol. I must admit, I would enjoy it immensely if the Others ended up helping in the fight against Dany and the fire priests that are burning up the land and its inhabitants. But this seems unlikely, even to me. As for the giants- we haven't heard any mention of them during the long night, which suggests to me that they were more or less left alone. But I admit that's pure speculation, based not on evidence but lack thereof. :P

But see, poor Wun Wun probably wants a gal with a nice long arms and horny feet.

Well if he had one of those at home he should have brought her with him...

I'm one of those that really don't believe this "battle for the dawn" ever took place,as i've stated many times i have a heard time believing that the NW in a time when the population was decimated and a large percentage Wightified was defeated by men who rode out in conditions 100 times worst than the Fist and beat back and army that outnumbered them that's just me i don't care what weapon the LH had that was a BS story right there.So i agree that story was not only vague but embelisshed beyond belief.I think the only way they won was with the WWs help.

Bran statement about if it was men who had been dissed ,they would have wroth a great vengence and not sing songs........Oh Bran if it was only clear to you what songs those little tree huggers were singing.No wonder the danm Crows were pecking his forehead when they heard the songs ... What i'm saying is the COTF may be hitting us a 4 for a 6.

[Frey family reunion]

Just finished watching the show (pretty good by the way) and for all of us who have been championing the Jon Snow is Lightbringer theory, there was an interesting little bit that occurred during the battle:

When Jon was facing the Thenn (or whatever it was), the Wildling slammed Jon's head against an anvil, and then threw him into the bellows of the smithy's furnace. Perhaps a little nod to the theory that Jon may be the "sword" Lightbringer personified?

[wolfmaid7]

Just finished watching the episode....um yeah am i the only one disappointed? Who was supposed to shine didn't shine,who wasn't supposed to shine actually did.Yeah the maid is not happy :devil:

[Frey family reunion]

Just finished watching the episode....um yeah am i the only one disappointed? Who was supposed to shine didn't shine,who wasn't supposed to shine actually did.Yeah the maid is not happy :devil:

Other than the fact that it was so dark and murky it was hard to figure out who was fighting who, I thought it was pretty good. I am a tad surprised however that they killed off

Grenn and Pyp

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Other than the fact that it was so dark and murky it was hard to figure out who was fighting who, I thought it was pretty good. I am a tad surprised however that they killed off

Grenn and Pyp

Might need to kill of some of Jon's ally's at the wall to later make it realistic he is betrayed.