Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Black Crow]

This is where I disagree with you an BC and I agree with VOTFM.The conversation Bran and Old Nan had suggests that they are different. From Nan's tone and the flow of her tale says the WWs routinely move through the
Woods and the Others came for the first time in the Longnight.I mean why bother to have this at all, even write it in the story if they are the same thing!

Nope, there's no ambiguity about it at all:

Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”
“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.
“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,”

Old Nan starts off by telling Bran Fear is for the long night, when... the white walkers move through the woods.”

Bran immediately responds: “You mean the Others,”

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.and then proceeds to tell how “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,”

To both Bran and Old Nan the terms are interchangeable and the reason for that exchange is not to distinguish between them but to show that they are one and the same and explain Mormont's earlier reference to white walkers on the shore.

[wolfmaid7]

Nope, there's no ambiguity about it at all:

Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

You mean the Others, Bran said querulously.

The Others, Old Nan agreed. Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks. Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, So, child. This is the sort of story you like?

Well, Bran said reluctantly, yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,

Old Nan starts off by telling Bran Fear is for the long night, when... the white walkers move through the woods.

Bran immediately responds: You mean the Others,

The Others, Old Nan agreed.and then proceeds to tell how In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,

To both Bran and Old Nan the terms are interchangeable and the reason for that exchange is not to distinguish between them but to show that they are one and the same and explain Mormont's earlier reference to white walkers on the shore.

I do not get that BC that the term was interchangeable, if it was there would be no need for "him"to chime in about what she means.plus the tone of the characters she speaks of changes. One seemed very normalized in conversation, the other a more ominous tone.It also doesnt help that she refers to them as dead.

Again why write the term WWs into the tale a term that appears "only"twice when Others, and other terms used clearly suffices.The WWs are only the stalking Shadows beyond the Wall that is always around.

[Black Crow]

The world is as it is. The passage is clear and unambiguous in stating as GRRM himself does that the white walkers and the Others are one and the same. It may well turn out in the end that there is more to the Others, which is why I argue that the Others/white walkers are not an independent third party, but there is no distinction to be drawn between the white walkers of the wood and the Others who came for the first time during the Long Night.

[MaesterSam]

I think I'm going to answer this in parts, so as not to overwhelm myself. And I will stick with the blue, hahaha.... WW sympathizer all the way! Here goes.

We have no evidence the WW have a rightful claim to any lands, or ever have. If we cite Old Nan, they first came after the First Men were already in Westeros. Which to me, means they are not one of the ancient indigenous races. They are old, but not even as old as the First Men.

Well it depends. If their coming is cyclical, then they could have been emerging every 8,000 years for a long, long time. The first time they were seen was only the first time the First Men saw them, because they weren't around yet for the previous long night. We don't know if the Children had encountered them previously.

If evidence emerges that they are rightful owners, then I will cede the point and agree the squatters are obligated to move, no matter how ignorant or innocent they may be in the matter.

Fair enough. tWoW will settle the matter, one way or another.

Nonetheless, this begs the question of why a WW would need land in the first place. They do not seem to need food or water, or even shelter.

You know, I have often wondered about this. I've seen it used as an argument for why they are not an invading army- b/c what would they do with all that land, turn it into more winter wasteland? How would that help them? They have NO reason to "conquer" anything, since as you said, they have almost no "needs." In fact, the only thing we know they actively seem to want (need?) are Craster's babies.

So yes, good point- I'm not sure why they would be "territorial" about the land itself. Maybe they normally aren't (assuming they don't bother the CotF or the giants), but due to their history with men they don't want them anywhere near where they live.

Bingo. It wasn't built to be a border. The Wall is not a border fence. It is a warning beacon to ensure that the people are not caught offguard by an invasion of Others, as happened in the Long Night. And as we have seen, it is quite effective as such. It is not an effective border, as we learned from Leaf's anthropological expedition among the apes of Westeros, and Ygritte and Mance's many tales of free folk going south at will. It is an obstacle, and an inconvenience, but not an impasse.

But why would they have warded it if it wasn't meant to be a barrier? I agree that the men on the Wall are the Night's Watch, and their job is to "wake the sleepers"... yet they are also the "sword in the darkness" and the "shield that guards the realms of men", both of which imply a protective function.

It's not an effective border against humans or CotF, but the fact that Coldhands couldn't cross the Black Gate suggests that it may be a very effective barrier against the undead.

So with this in mind, and the fact that it's location is more of a geographic convenience, how can it be an official border that denotes land ownership? Humans and other races have lived both north and south of it for hundreds of years.

But if it's not a border, then why do they call it the edge of the world, and why do laws not apply north of the Wall? It seems the characters in the book, pretty much without exception, see the lands north of the Wall as separate from the rest of Westeros, an almost mythical place about which stories are told of snarks and grumpkins, where the old races may or may not still exist, and wildlings drink blood from human skulls, etc. There is an understanding that there are 'the 7 kingdoms', and then there are 'the lands beyond the Wall'. So even if it's not an official border, for all practical purposes it is treated like one.

South of the Wall, Wun Wun is hanging out with one of the sexiest women on planetos, when he should be able to kick his feet up on his giant ottoman and watch some football back at his home north of the Wall. But he can't. Why? Because he is being displaced from his traditional homeland by the Others. ...though if it were me, I'd sooner stay wherever Val is LOL

Do we know if the WW actually attack giants? Assuming they remember to use obsidian (as an old race, I would hope so), the giants would be a formidable foe for a human-sized WW. We also haven't seen any giant wights. I always assumed the giants are moving south b/c a long winter is coming and they don't want to starve (or be attacked by a wight. The wights seem pretty dumb and there are a lot of them around, they just might attack giants too)

Agreed, I'd choose Val over football any day!

[Black Crow]

I think I'm going to answer this in parts, so as not to overwhelm myself. And I will stick with the blue, hahaha.... WW sympathizer all the way! Here goes.

We have no evidence the WW have a rightful claim to any lands, or ever have. If we cite Old Nan, they first came after the First Men were already in Westeros. Which to me, means they are not one of the ancient indigenous races. They are old, but not even as old as the First Men.

This argument is predicated on the assumption that the Others are a race in their own right, rather than a red herring. As I've observed, if the white walkers are Craster's sons they are not an invading army. They are created by magic for the purpose of spreading terror.

[MaesterSam]

Quote (I've added numerals to reference each paragraph, other than that, it's unedited):

I. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

II. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

III. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

IV. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

V. When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

VI. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

VII. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Let's let that sink in. Read it again if you have time. Then again... and again.... lol

Thanks for posting this. It does make them look like assholes, doesn't it, hahaha. But mostly b/c they seem to be enjoying his death- what comes before is still as fair a fight as you're going to get between two unmatched opponents (reasoning below).

My thoughts on each paragraph:

I. Even the sound of the exchange is an unfair advantage for the Others. Imagine trying to fight while the screech of this clangor rattled your eardrums to the point of agony. Ser Waymar has the disadvantage of needing to breathe and having muscles that fatigue with exertion, the Other does not. And it is so cold in this near proximity to the Other that his sword has begun to freeze over, despite being swung about. Pretty, pretty, pretty Cold. (I hope you are a Larry David fan haha)

True, the cold and the awful noise are in the Others' favor. But there is no evidence that they can control the sound their swords make when they hit steel, nor do they have the option of 'leaving the cold at home' when they go out ranging. So these are not unfair advantages- they are true advantages, natural to the Others, that are very effective in a fight against humans. (Similar to one man being born much stronger than another- the Cleganes, for example. You wouldn't say their size is an unfair advantage, though it is certainly an advantage.)

II. The mortal wound. But not a quick death. He can bleed out for a nice long time while the Others have their fun.

I see no reason to think the Other only wounded him on purpose, to draw out the fight. Waymar is putting up a decent fight at first, and this is the first time a sword meets its target. A fighter getting wounded happens in human-to-human duels all the time.

III. I actually forgot about this line. Wow. I think this is where wolfmaid thinks he's saying "Well fought, Ser" LOL. I underestimated the Others' cruelty. Full disclosure, I am a field linguist. I learn and document indigenous languages that are in danger of being lost, teach them, and train teachers to teach them. I deal with language acquisition issues everyday. Even without speaking 'Other-ese', it is quite easy for Will to comprehend their tone of voice. People learn this first in a language-immersion environment. So in this paragraph, Ser Crackles mocks Waymar. Pretty harsh in my book. And hard to interpret otherwise. (It's not like Ser Crackles was trying to hand Waymar a loaf of warm bread the whole time). Not only did Will comprehend the mockery, but Waymar did as well, as we see in the next paragraph.

Agreed. Ser Crackles appears to be a bit of an asshole. Then again, human fighters mock each other too (Oberyn being the most recent example), so I don't think it's "inhumanly" evil for him to do so. And in a duel to the death, I suppose manners aren't all that important...

IV. He found his fury. He would not be mocked in death. He will die, but at least he wanted to die with his pride. His sword is now covered in frost, but he swings it in anger nonetheless - for the first time, for the last time. The Other's tone of voice is confirmed in his body language - with his lackadaisical parry of Ser Waymar's only offensive strike. A parry, in Fencing, is a defensive action to deflect an opponent's attack. Ser Waymar put his whole life into that single attack. Ser Crackles yawns and deflects it with a shrug. I exaggerate here a bit to show how this type of parry would appear if it were say, Ilyn vs Jaime (which is a great analogy for the prologue, if not an homage to himself by GRRM). I see no way Will misunderstood the body language of the Other. He knew sword play, and I think we can safely assume he was trained at it by Ser Alliser. It's not hard to tell when someone is playing with a doomed opponent.

But is he really "playing" with him? It seems like a legit fight so far (with the Other clearly the stronger fighter, no doubt, but in any fight one fighter is going to come out ahead, that doesn't mean they're the bad guy). So they fight a bit (Waymar on the defensive, yes I agree), then the WW draws first blood. There is a brief pause, then Will lunges at him. The WW uses his sword to defend himself. I see no problem here... You seem to be offended that it wasn't more difficult for the WW to parry his blow. Why should he pretend it's harder than it is? He is the superior fighter, why would he hide that?

So he parries the attack, and Will's sword shatters. Do you really think the WW could have foreseen this? The last time the WWs were out and about, humans hadn't even invented steel yet- so how could he possibly know that this never-before-encountered metal would shatter once it got too cold? And even if he had known- what was he supposed to do, try to communicate to Will that it was a bad idea to use such a weapon against him? "Hey, dude, you don't wanna let that thing get too cold...."

V. Yeah, not seeing the level playing field.

I make no claim of a level playing field. Only as much fairness as is possible when one fighter is 300% superior to the other. Meaning, one on one, no throwing snow in the other's face, no sneak attacks from behind, etc. When Dany and Drogon start conquering places, there won't be a level playing field there either. When Stannis's armored men mowed down the wildlings, that wasn't a level playing field. But that's how a fight works. One party is stronger, and most times that one will win.

VI. Here is our scream. Waymar's frozen longsword now shatters like a rain of needles - amazing and vivid imagery - and these needles fly into Waymar's eyes. I do a lot of woodworking and it hurts like hell when this happens with sawdust. If it were a rain of steel needles, I think it would hurt a lot more. Though, it wouldn't kill me. It would just be terrifying and excruciating. I'm still not seeing how this is not cruel.

Oh I'm sure this was incredibly painful, and a horrible scene to read. But as I said above, I don't see this as the WW's fault directly. They are always cold as far as we know, so the fault lies with the NW for equipping its rangers with weapons that shatter when confronting the real enemy. Especially in the case of this last blow, the WW put up his sword to defend himself- he didn't have many other options right at that moment. I don't see any reason to think this was a planned event by the WW, intended to torture Waymar. In fact, once this happens, they quickly move in for the kill.

VII. Ah, the silent signal. I think the silent signal is given when Waymar yields. He has dropped his sword, and is now kneeling when the watchers move forward together. Ser Waymar is very much alive, and could remain so for quite some time as he bleeds out, or could be maestered in a jiffy. And no doubt, when Will hears their voices and laughter, wolfmaid believes they are lamenting the dead and what Will is misinterpreting their wails of sorrow for the fate of poor Ser Waymar. Just kidding wolfmaid :)

Do you really think it would have been kinder to stand back and wait on him to die? As you said, it could have taken quite a while, and he was shrieking in pain. He had virtually no hope of survival at this point- yes maybe a maester could have saved him, but they were days from the Wall so that wasn't an option. While it does creep me out that they enjoyed it so much, IMO killing him was probably kinder than walking away, in this case.

So now that we've reviewed, let's return to your point:

I got the impression that he was dead pretty quickly- even without one specific mortal blow, I imagine 6 magic ice swords cutting into an already mortally wounded man would kill him almost instantly.

Wounded, but not killed. Tortured with needles of steel in his eyes, but not dead. He was not lying down in the snow, bleeding out, barely conscious. He was kneeling, shrieking, and covering his eyes as blood welled between his fingers. The watchers were silent as they came forward, and silent still as they sliced him to ribbons, but I doubt Ser Waymar stopped shrieking at this point, in some chivalrous display of respect for a "duel" well fought.

Well he says swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. He doesn't say "except for Royce's screams". Just in a deathly silence. He also hears their voices and laughter, so I would argue that the screaming has stopped at this point, and Waymar is dead or at least unconscious.

It sounds a bit disturbing to me. Even though he didn't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings for Royce, Will shut his eyes because he couldn't bear to watch the butchery any longer.

Agreed. And more disturbing than I remembered. These are clearly not nice guys. That being said, we've encountered humans who were far worse. And we don't know the backstory of why they are the enemy in the first place...

[Black Crow]

I'd also point out that "Tortured with steel needles in his eyes" is a touch emotive. In the first place there was just one shard in one eye and secondly whilst shocking and painful it was a random event arising out of the shattering of his own sword. He wasn't being deliberately "tortured".

In the end this question of "honour" is semantics. All that's really important is that while Craster's boys are ruthless killers, they are not mindless ones.

[Black Crow]

And with that, to bed, Good night all.

[MaesterSam]

On the humanoid side, we have Men, Children of the Forest, and Giants.

On the non-humanoid, Other side, I propose we have:

1. The Original Others or "Others Proper" who first came in the Long Night thousands of years ago, and who we have yet to see in the books (though might have glimpsed some in the show). They have genders, as you point out a female seduced Night's King. They use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (like the Last Hero). And, most importantly IMO, they are intelligent enough to plan a very successful invasion of the Hundred Kingdoms of Men that was only thwarted by the Last Hero.
   
2. The White Walkers move like white shadows through the woods, and ride upon dead horses and the like. We have seen them in the books. They hunt as we saw Waymar hunted. While they display organization and hierarchy, they do not seem to be as intelligent as say, Tyrion. I believe the Original Others create WW. Heretics like to remind me GRRM only refers to this class alone as, "Others." And I remind fellow heretics that his characters do not make this distinction, and they know far less about the Others than GRRM does.
   
3. The Wights are the dead who rise. These are even less intelligent than WW, but do retain enough memory to hold a grudge. But who knows, they might be smart enough to guard a sky cell at the Eyrie.
   

I could see this working... The WWs we have seen appear to be the warriors of their "race", in which I include the wights and your suggested ruling class, or Others Proper. Given that land, crops, livestock, women, castles etc are all meaningless to them, I see no reason for them to attack the south- ever. Which suggests they are following someone else's orders.

However, I do think they are intelligent on the level of most human soldiers. Not Tyrion, certainly, but on par with the average NW brother or other warrior.

I think you hit the nail on the head here- this is exactly the problem! There was a war, and some sort of peace agreement long ago.

Nope. There wasn't. There are theories of such, but nothing like that exists in the books. I agree there was a war though :cool4:

I'll take what I can get! :cheers:

I do think it's reasonable to assume that at the end of a war, there is some sort of peace agreement. And the war did end- for 8,000 years. Whether it was peace or an armistice is debatable, but it wasn't open war. The Others were winning, based on all accounts. Then the LH went to find the Children. There is nothing in the text specifically saying he was involved in driving back the WWs. It was the NW that rode out against them, IIRC. In snows 100 ft deep, on horses. Are you taking these legends literally? How could the NW possibly have done this? We see Stannis stuck for weeks in snow just a few feet deep!

It seems to me that the little bit of info we get about the end of the long night is extremely vague and unreliable. I think it is much more likely that the LH found a way to communicate with a leader of the other side, whether this be a greenseer, the WW general, Night's King or one of the Others Proper you proposed, and that they negotiated a peace somehow. After this, the army was called back and the long night ended. I think it's unlikely the Others were defeated; they simply went home at the end of the war.

[TheButcherCrow]

<snip>

I offer this:

The Others, as they are often known in the novels and were still known by this name in the first draft of the pilot script of the TV series, were later renamed to White Walkers instead. In the audio commentary for "Winter Is Coming", producers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss explained that the change was made to avoid confusion that may arise between references to the race known as the Others and "others" meaning other groups or people within the show. Benioff and Weiss explain:

“ We call them White Walkers in the show, more often known as the Others in the books and the reason for the change is simply that people would refer to 'the Others' and viewers who didn’t know the books would think: "Which others are we talking about? The other whats?"

For me WW = Others, no third type.

[wolfmaid7]

To bring up the quote by Varys that Harlan posted.Do you guys think Varys is a little more knowledgeable about that kind of thing (shadow assassinations).Was it ever mentioned in the books where he is from?

[MaesterSam]

I offer this:

For me WW = Others, no third type.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether there is a third type of ice creature. I do believe the WW's (or Others) we have seen so far look and act like soldiers, or perhaps rangers. Where there are soldiers, there is a commander.... But you are right, this commander could just be another WW, or he could be a CotF, or it could be BR. At this point, we just don't know.

In support of VOTFM's theory- there are two separate claims of humans having slept with Others (wildling women during the Long night, and the Night's King). The WWs we have seen so far seem unlikely to engage in such behaviors. They are so cold they shatter steel, and Sam can't even touch the dagger after he kills the WW- so how could a human survive such an intimate encounter?

[TheButcherCrow]

That's true, of course, but it's true of virtually everything we discuss in Heresy. If we're going to assume the timeline is completely inaccurate, and that we can simply make up another that suits our theories better, why not do that across the board with all such conflicting information?

So much time and energy has been spent discussing the Night's King, for instance, in exhaustive detail. Why not simply say: "How could such a character possibly be remembered at all? He never existed, or he was totally different from the version in the story. Forget him."

But instead we choose to believe he did exist, and he was LC of the Watch, and so on. We then examine in detail the various possibilities associated with him. We wonder how it's possible he could have assessed a woman's beauty from atop the Wall... and we conclude that indeed, as GRRM has told us, the Wall was nowhere near 700 feet tall at that time. Well, that falls right into place. There's a consistency at work there.

Similarly, we can look at the fact that the Others are said to have come from the uttermost North, and are not associated with the South at all. We can then compare that to the fact that the Andals are said to have invaded the South, and never to have succeeded in invading the North at all. It's a complete dichotomy.

And so we can comfortably conclude that the Long Night did not happen as a result of the Andals' invasion. Instead, it happened far earlier. Which accords with what the Godslayer explicitly tells us: that everything we know about the Long Night was set down by septons that came with the Andals thousands of years later. Here, too, we find a consistency at work.

It's because of the long list of such internal consistencies (and I could write thousands of words on this topic without effort) that I am very reluctant to just toss out the timeline, move the Andals up thousands of years, or (as some have suggested) move them back to 10K years in the past so they can be present for the Pact, etc.

i agree entirely with everything you say above JNR but you seem to be mistaking me for one of those people who is unwilling to listen to any theory other than their own. I freely admit my theories are nothing more than speculation based on possibilities derived from assumptions made about unknowns. They all require that a premise not explicitly (or implicitly for that matter) stated in the text be accepted. From that premise I look to imagine possible scenarios that could be true.

At GRRM's latest con appearance he read some stuff from the world book about the history of the Westerlands http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/ Some interesting stuff, annoyingly it doesn't mention the Long Night at all, which is weird because we go from pre-Lann (age of heroes, post-pact, pre-long night according to the "official" history) right up to Tywin's offering to the drowned god (spoiler alert: House Reyne went out in a pretty horrible manner). The reading (I should say, Elio & Linda's notes on the reading so certain amount of subjectivity) also serves to highlight inconsistencies in the known histories with at least 5 different stories as to how Lann took the Rock.

When Sam tells Jon that many of the maesters at the Citadel question all of the histories and then when he arrives at the citadel Marwyn indicates heavily that the maesters are up to something. This alone opens up the possibility of a doctored timeline, just the possibility nothing more. It also opens up the possibility that the maesters are questioning the old tales because the old tales (such as Nan's) contain some truths that the maesters want hidden. Both possibilities would be equally intriguing to me.

[wolfmaid7]

I offer this:

For me WW = Others, no third type.

I'm confused by this,you make it sound like the term is "only" specific to the show.Both Old Nan and Mormont used the term, though it was the only two instances in the book iirc.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether there is a third type of ice creature. I do believe the WW's (or Others) we have seen so far look and act like soldiers, or perhaps rangers. Where there are soldiers, there is a commander.... But you are right, this commander could just be another WW, or he could be a CotF, or it could be BR. At this point, we just don't know.

In support of VOTFM's theory- there are two separate claims of humans having slept with Others (wildling women during the Long night, and the Night's King). The WWs we have seen so far seem unlikely to engage in such behaviors. They are so cold they shatter steel, and Sam can't even touch the dagger after he kills the WW- so how could a human survive such an intimate encounter?

I myself don't believe there is a third kind,only historical precedence for misindentification between Wights and WWs and this among other things for me is that in conversation characters tend to use them to mean both Wights and WWs which seems to be a problem.

@ BC you misunderstand me,i'm not claiming that there is a third group only that as i stated before there is historicl misidentification and mis remebering of who were the WWS and who were the Others which i believe it what the Wights were called originally and later the term evolved into that.As far as what GRRM said i think its a matter of speaking interm of what readers accept vs what the text doesn't say verbatim but alludes to.The term was used twice and to be honest why even have characters mention the term at all if it means nothing and is the same as using Others.Mormont says a fisherfolk reported seeing a WW,why even bother with that when he could have just said Other.Its over kill and adds nothing if the twice mentioned term Other( in what i see as being amiguous ) is one and the same as Other.Why have Old Nan's little mishap with something that if she didn't mention would have no effect on the story same with Mormont?

I'll whole that judgement until the other books come out.

When Sam tells Jon that many of the maesters at the Citadel question all of the histories and then when he arrives at the citadel Marwyn indicates heavily that the maesters are up to something. This alone opens up the possibility of a doctored timeline, just the possibility nothing more. It also opens up the possibility that the maesters are questioning the old tales because the old tales (such as Nan's) contain some truths that the maesters want hidden. Both possibilities would be equally intriguing to me.

I agree i can't see the accounts written down thousands of years after said events as having 100% accuracy.

[Black Crow]

We discussed terminology some time back in trying to determine whether the Others/white walkers have indeed been around all the time but just lurking in the background. The term white walkers was used by Mormont and recognised by Tyrion, Sam also recalls stories of the white walkers in the woods and we also have the white shadows and stalking shadows variants from other characters. There really is no reason to downplay its use or attribute a modern origin, other than it seems [quite naturally] to be more common north of the Wall.

Once again nor is there any evidence in text or in SSMs that there is a difference between the original Others/white walkers and the present lot other than that the current lot are turned from Craster's sons. Whether earlier generations were turned from Starks remains to be seen, but we are of course told that the Nights King and his men were "sacrificing".

The question of the white queen is also less of a mystery given the revelation of Craster's sons and here it is her very uniqueness which provides a possible answer. If the Others/white walkers were indeed a separate race then there should be more women, not just that one way back when. However as we've seen both in text and on screen the white walkers are not a distinct race but human changelings, latterly Craster's sons.

The point of this being that the sons were required to become warriors, but if they are made to order as it were there is no reason why a girl changeling should be taken and turned for the particular purpose of enchanting the Nights King - as Mel has done with Stannis.

[Voice]

I have much to catch up on here at Heresy, which is a good thing :) but I want to touch on this first. I haven't really gone into it in depth here as of yet, only because it is theoretical. It is not baseless, but I've learned to try and stick to the scripture of George's written word in my debates here in Heresy LOL. Anyway, regarding my 'Other' Classification System....

Nope, there's no ambiguity about it at all:

Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”
“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.
“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,”

Old Nan starts off by telling Bran Fear is for the long night, when... the white walkers move through the woods.”

Bran immediately responds: “You mean the Others,”

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.and then proceeds to tell how “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,”

To both Bran and Old Nan the terms are interchangeable and the reason for that exchange is not to distinguish between them but to show that they are one and the same and explain Mormont's earlier reference to white walkers on the shore.

I'm afraid you're wrong, BC. With all due respect, I think you are misunderstanding or ignoring the meaning of the word querulously.

quer·u·lous (adjective)

1. full of complaints; complaining.

2. characterized by or uttered in complaint; peevish: a querulous tone; constant querulous reminders of things to be done.

Here, GRRM uses it as an adverb. That means, it applies directly to the word 'said' in the quote:

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

The ambiguity wolfmaid and I are speaking of isn't simply implied, it's explicit. Bran caught a mistake in Old Nan's storytelling and corrected and reminded her.

I do not get that BC that the term was interchangeable, if it was there would be no need for "him"to chime in about what she means.plus the tone of the characters she speaks of changes. One seemed very normalized in conversation, the other a more ominous tone.It also doesnt help that she refers to them as dead.

Again why write the term WWs into the tale a term that appears "only"twice when Others, and other terms used clearly suffices.The WWs are only the stalking Shadows beyond the Wall that is always around.

Precisely, and I'm thrilled we agree on the variety of Others, if not their disposition, wolfmaid :cheers:

Old Nan is, well, old... add to the age of the storyteller the ambiguity of these creatures, their tendency to leave no survivors, the fact that no one has had to deal with them on a daily basis for thousands and thousands of years, and what do you get, Black Crow? Overlapping terms. Though I wouldn't call them interchangeable.

Bran has heard versions of these stories before, and knows the terms are not interchangeable. That is why he corrected Old Nan, and sharply reminded her that she meant the Others in the Long Night, not simply the white walkers.

It wasn't a reply BC, it was an annoyed correction. Youth are prone to such episodes of tactlessness, and it fits perfectly with Bran's mood in this chapter.

The world is as it is. The passage is clear and unambiguous

But it wasn't. That's why Bran had to get her back on the right track. He is the son of the Lord of Winterfell after all, he has no qualms pointing out the errors of a servant, even one as respected as Old Nan. I believe Bran's depression earlier in this chapter actually sets us up for a unique bit of truth from Old Nan here that was, perhaps, a notch above the versions of the story he had heard before. Thanks to Bran's tad-harsh complaint, Old Nan begins to tell the unabridged version of the Others' tale.

Of course, GRRM conveniently cuts the telling short with an abrupt interruption from Maester Luwin.

...in stating as GRRM himself does that the white walkers and the Others are one and the same. It may well turn out in the end that there is more to the Others, which is why I argue that the Others/white walkers are not an independent third party, but there is no distinction to be drawn between the white walkers of the wood and the Others who came for the first time during the Long Night.

Well, George knows All, doesn't he? But that doesn't mean he's going to tell us all of it before we read it in a future book.

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

:cool4: All white walkers are Others, yet not all Others need be white walkers.

It is an umbrella term. All Men are Human, but of course not all Humans are Men.

It may well turn out in the end that there is more to the Others, which is why I argue that the Others/white walkers are not an independent third party, but there is no distinction to be drawn between the white walkers of the wood and the Others who came for the first time during the Long Night.

Au contraire, mon ami, but I'll get to that...

Quotes, then Notes:

I. "That's not my favorite," he said. "My favorites were the scary ones." He heard some sort of commotion outside and turned back to the window. Rickon was running across the yard toward the gatehouse, the wolves following him, but the tower faced the wrong way for Bran to see what was happening. He smashed a fist on his thigh in frustration and felt nothing.

The commotion outside is Tyrion's return, and will interrupt this story far too soon...

II. "Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

Oops, Old Nan misspoke...

III. "You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

Not a simple, or necessarily kind, reply. We know he is complaining and correcting her as he says this, because querulously means to do something with complaint. So, Bran said, "You mean the Others," in a tone of complaint. It's an example of Bran's quick young mind becoming frustrated in his broken body, and lacking patience for Old Nan's aging mind. Remember, he has heard versions of these stories his whole life. We have not. He knows the difference between a story about a normal winter, and one about the Long Night.

IV. "The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

Old Nan agreed that she misspoke, and begins telling the unabridged version of the story of the Others and the Long Night.

V. "Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only . . . "

I think Bran was going to say here, "yes only were they white walkers or Others?

VI. Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

I would argue that in this paragraph she is using 'Others' in its general, inclusive sense - the umbrella term.

VII. Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

Bran wants these details, as do we.

VIII. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

Leave it to a Maester to cut us off from ancient history LOL.

Notice that she uses 'death' and 'dead' almost synonymously with 'cold.' I think cold emanating from the WW or Others is what killed the wildlings Waymar was tracking. Anyway, I digress. We have a very clear, literary description, of the Original Others that came in the Long Night.

The Ancient Others of the Long Night

Old Nan said...

1. They can smell hot blood

2. They come without sound

3. They stalk with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds

4. They invaded the hundred kingdoms of the First Men

(I think this proves they are more intelligent than WW)

And thanks to Samwell, we can add more to this list...

5. They may ride giant ice-spiders

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

(Samwell I - ASOS)

"Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are..."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

6. They may be vulnerable to dragonsteel

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

And last but not least, from Bran...

7. They can be female or male

8. They can have sex

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

(Bran III - ASOS)

Now, for me the distinction between the Others described above and the white walkers below is quite obvious. We've seen white walkers. We have never seen an Ancient Other who rides a giant ice-spider, and/or stalks prey with packs of white spiders as big as hounds. And we've never seen an Other that can seduce a man. I'm sure we'd all remember that :)

White Walkers

1. They appear as white shadows in the woods

2. They ride dead things (as we have already seen in ASOS)

Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true.

(Samwell I AFFC)

3. They can be killed with dragonglass

4. They cannot be killed with fire

5. They do not stalk with white spiders, nor ride giant ice-spiders

6. They have a language and social structure

7. They carry magical longswords that shatter steel

8. Men who fall in battle to them will rise as Wights if not burned

i. Ser Waymar and Small Paul, for example.

ii. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

9. They may all be male

I think this ties in with CS.

10. They melt when killed

11. They have eyes like bright blue stars

I would add that they seem to use Cold as a weapon, and can quickly make a people freeze to death before they have a chance to make a fire, but I don't want to get back into the honor code debate :)

Wights

1. They rise from Men who fall in battle to a white walker

2. They do not ride anything, dead or spider-like

3. They are slow and clumsy

4. They have a queer cold scent that panics animals

5. They will keep moving even when dismembered

6. They retain enough memory to hold a grudge

7. They can be killed with fire, and are highly flammable

8. They cannot be killed with dragonglass

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

As I said before, Men are just now re-learning what they are dealing with so the classes of Others are still being put together in the novels. This responsibility belongs to everyone, but of course falls on the Night's Watch.

Lord Commander Mormont gave him a withering look. "You are a man of the Night's Watch. Try not to soil your smallclothes every time I look at you. Come, I said." His boots made squishing sounds in the mud, and Sam had to hurry to keep up. "I've been thinking about this dragonglass of yours."

"It's not mine," Sam said.

"Jon Snow's dragonglass, then. If dragonglass daggers are what we need, why do we have only two of them? Every man on the Wall should be armed with one the day he says his words."

"We never knew . . . "

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

(Samwell II ASOS)

"Others" in General

1. They all have eyes like bright blue stars

2. They're all really cool :laugh:

3. They are all announced by 3 horn blasts

4. They are all enemies of the Night's Watch, realms of men

My posts are turning into books on their own so I'm gonna cut this one off here. You get my point though, three distinct classes of Others are described in detail in the books:

The Others = Ancient Others, White Walkers, Wights

[Nettles]

I had an idea these days and I'd like to ask if you've already discussed it or something similar. I haven't read the whole thread yet as I am still going through the older Heresies.

So, given the unusual architecture of the Nightfort's kitchen, would it be possible that besides blood sacrifice, they (tCotF) were also making experiments trying to produce half human-half WW children?

What if the union of the Night's King and the Lady Original Walker produced offspring which was later grafted into the Bolton and Stark lines through changelings like Bael's baby?

What if Craster was a product of such grafting, which made his own offspring suitable for being changed by the WW?

Was Roose aware of it, hence the leechings he submitted himself to?

There is more to Craster's wives than it first meets the eye, I think the text of Jon's chapters at Craster's supports it. What do you think?

[Black Crow]

I'm afraid you're wrong, BC. With all due respect, I think you are misunderstanding or ignoring the meaning of the word querulously.

quer·u·lous (adjective)

1. full of complaints; complaining.

2. characterized by or uttered in complaint; peevish: a querulous tone; constant querulous reminders of things to be done.

Here, GRRM uses it as an adverb. That means, it applies directly to the word 'said' in the quote:

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

The ambiguity wolfmaid and I are speaking of isn't simply implied, it's explicit. Bran caught a mistake in Old Nan's storytelling and corrected and reminded her.

As a professional writer i know exactly what querulously means and both you and Wolfmaid are chasing shadows of your own. There is no evidence in either the books or SSMs that there is any difference between the white walkers of old and the present ones, and the reason why this exchange was written in was to explain Mormont's earlier reference to white walkers.

Its as simple as that.

[Black Crow]

I had an idea these days and I'd like to ask if you've already discussed it or something similar. I haven't read the whole thread yet as I am still going through the older Heresies.

So, given the unusual architecture of the Nightfort's kitchen, would it be possible that besides blood sacrifice, they (tCotF) were also making experiments trying to produce half human-half WW children?

What if the union of the Night's King and the Lady Original Walker produced offspring which was later grafted into the Bolton and Stark lines through changelings like Bael's baby?

What if Craster was a product of such grafting, which made his own offspring suitable for being changed by the WW?

Was Roose aware of it, hence the leechings he submitted himself to?

There is more to Craster's wives than it first meets the eye, I think the text of Jon's chapters at Craster's supports it. What do you think?

The strange nature of the kitchen in the Night Fort has been discussed before on heresy with a fairly broad concensus that it wasn't originally a kitchen but rather a structure built over the sinkhole/stairwell leading to the Black Gate and only assumed its more recent function after the gate was sealed.

There is also a supplementary thought following; that given the Black Gate is as old as the wall and the Nightfort the oldest castle on the Wall it may originally have comprised just this circular building over the stair and that the fortified bits, the towers, the barracks, the stables and the prison may have come later after the overthrow of the Nights King.

[Nettles]

Thank you for the clarification, Black Crow.

Location aside, does the grafting of hybrids seem plausible?