Dothraki: The most Villainous Culture?

[willofDorne]

This is really where you lost me.

Since I was responding to 2 post 1. "Really???? Really!"

and 2. "How bout I come rape your Grandma and steal yer laptop!!!"

Oh thats just Hilarious ! :rolleyes:

I think the point he was making and that you are missing is that you have a double standard. You want to make all the excuses for a culture and everything they do because it's their culture, but at the same time, you want it at a safe distance. You can't have both, and you shouldn't want to. You should hold everyone to the standard of what you'd want to see in real life. People do this all the time on these boards, they make excuses for a specific character like "The Hound" because he was burned and had the Mountain as a brother. If laws worked in such ways, nobody would ever be convicted as everyone would be a product of their environment. So, it's ok for the Hound to kill Micah in a fiction, but not ok for him to do it in real life? Double standard.

I think you are only derailed by this argument because you fail to see the underlying problem with your own assertion, that culture can justify inhumane actions. It can't.

[RoamingRonin]

The Dothraki can be pretty civilized when they're not warring and raiding. They're definitely a brutal group of peopleno doubt, but they aren't mindless murder/rape machines either.

[willofDorne]

I slogged through all this so I can make a point, what was it?

Oh yeah.

So I find it ironic that the Ironborn has "Salt Wives" and the Dothraki are "rapers." To me, I think Salt Wives are probably one of the most insulting things in the series. But it's definitely better than getting raped and pillaged, who would argue that?

What do you think, are "Salt Wives" more or less bad than "Rapers and Slavers" or are they just different wording of the same thing?

[blerg]

I've always thought the Others were the most villainous culture.

[Pigeon Pie]

Agreed. Some muscly guy living next door forcing me to give him my food and have sex with him to not be killed is definitely not a neighbor I want.

[Mikeygigs]

I slogged through all this so I can make a point, what was it?

Oh yeah.

So I find it ironic that the Ironborn has "Salt Wives" and the Dothraki are "rapers." To me, I think Salt Wives are probably one of the most insulting things in the series. But it's definitely better than getting raped and pillaged, who would argue that?

What do you think, are "Salt Wives" more or less bad than "Rapers and Slavers" or are they just different wording of the same thing?

I guess, in the end, they're both essentially slaves. That being said, I do think being a Salt Wife affords the person a certain position (of importance, I mean) in society higher than simply being a slave. Certainly, a Salt Wife is not a "Thrall," right? And their children are recognized as belonging to their father, and have the chance to inherit/become captains in their own right.

It still sexual slavery, and therefore still reprehensible, but perhaps its a bit better than the alternative. Being forced into sexual slavery by the Dothraki, and sold to the Ghiscari will see your children remain slaves, afterall. Further, you'll have no worth, or no official status aside from the price that was paid for you.

[OldGimletEye]

I would like to see the Red Lamb smack the shit out of a few Dothraki. I wonder how he'll feel serving along side Dany's Dothraki troops.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

Not sure why so many here on the forum insist on holding cultures based in a fictional medieval world to modern Western standards... It's just silly...

Maybe a fun writing project would be to imagine how our world would look through there eyes... A dothraki khal gets blasted through space time and finds himself in 21st century America... Sees the worship of pretty women and boys on TV... Men and women with no actual skills of making anything consuming mindlessly and destroying the global climate fat and lazy on their chairs using computers and phones all day long... Complaining about their elected leaders who don't make life easy enough, but without any real collective will to overthrow their actual corporate overlords, heh...

I mean all of us are using technology that probably required slave labor somewhere along the way in its manufacture... Who are we to judge the dothraki or ghiscari...

That being said... The ghiscari did have some stuff going on that made my blood boil seen through Dani's eyes... I just think she has prejudice against their culture as an ancestor of old valyrian decent maybe?

[willofDorne]

Not sure why so many here on the forum insist on holding cultures based in a fictional medieval world to modern Western standards... It's just silly...

Maybe a fun writing project would be to imagine how our world would look through there eyes... A dothraki khal gets blasted through space time and finds himself in 21st century America... Sees the worship of pretty women and boys on TV... Men and women with no actual skills of making anything consuming mindlessly and destroying the global climate fat and lazy on their chairs using computers and phones all day long... Complaining about their elected leaders who don't make life easy enough, but without any real collective will to overthrow their actual corporate overlords, heh...

I mean all of us are using technology that probably required slave labor somewhere along the way in its manufacture... Who are we to judge the dothraki or ghiscari...

That being said... The ghiscari did have some stuff going on that made my blood boil seen through Dani's eyes... I just think she has prejudice against their culture as an ancestor of old valyrian decent maybe?

I don't think anyone is judging the Dothraki based on modern times. People are looking at houses and cultures in the Seven Kingdoms and saying, hey, these are 10X better than what some people are doing in Essos. Nobody is saying all the people should be condemned, but the culture is poisonous and probably should be rooted out.

Another thing, people don't realize that in Westeros there are farmers, bakers, inn keepers, smiths, etc etc. You have a lot of people, and a very small percentage, like 10% are actually warriors. In Dothraki culture, it's like 40% (40,000 screamers out of a 100,000 person horde). That's what people are against... not just their practices, their utter disregard to attempt any kind of peaceful existence. And there is no word for "Thank you" in Dothraki!

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

I don't think anyone is judging the Dothraki based on modern times. People are looking at houses and cultures in the Seven Kingdoms and saying, hey, these are 10X better than what some people are doing in Essos. Nobody is saying all the people should be condemned, but the culture is poisonous and probably should be rooted out.

Another thing, people don't realize that in Westeros there are farmers, bakers, inn keepers, smiths, etc etc. You have a lot of people, and a very small percentage, like 10% are actually warriors. In Dothraki culture, it's like 40% (40,000 screamers out of a 100,000 person horde). That's what people are against... not just their practices, their utter disregard to attempt any kind of peaceful existence. And there is no word for "Thank you" in Dothraki!

Well, there's a reason why the dothraki are the way they are and it's right in our face in the book... The cities in Essos don't collaborate to end the dothraki horde, but rather they use them for their own ends... To weaken a rival city... To get slaves from captured dothraki prisoners...

Sure, as neighbors they're not great... But they are mostly a consequence of the quarrels between the powers in Essos that neighbor them... They didn't choose their place, they just adapted to it, and quite well

[willofDorne]

Well, there's a reason why the dothraki are the way they are and it's right in our face in the book... The cities in Essos don't collaborate to end the dothraki horde, but rather they use them for their own ends... To weaken a rival city... To get slaves from captured dothraki prisoners...

Sure, as neighbors they're not great... But they are mostly a consequence of the quarrels between the powers in Essos that neighbor them... They didn't choose their place, they just adapted to it, and quite well

Kind of a good point.. really who is more evil, the horde that lives outside the city gates, or the city of sin itself. Some of these cities Daenerys conquered were just horrid. The ones that made the Unsullied probably the worst of them all. But for all the culture these cities have, i do not think they could stand up to the Dothraki Horde on a good day. 40,000 mounted men with bow and arrow, that's just not right. The unsullied are disciplined, but not mobile. As they say in the books, what good are shields when arrows come down like rain?

The Dothraki horde is the only true power in Essos, weak as it is. Give the unsullied 5000 bows, and unlimited arrows, and they might fair better because the Dothraki have zero armor, really.

I don't know... but it just seems to me the Dothraki are #1, and everyone else sort of just does what they can. It's true, they're evil slavers and the like, but the Dothraki Horde is really the problem. The cities have education, and could develop superior political and economic systems, but you can't do much when you have 40,000 armered robbers at your door every harvest, or whenever they show up. I mean, that's basically what this is. The Dothraki say it's a gift, but they don't know the word for Thank you. So... there you go.

[Lord Reaver]

What do you think, are "Salt Wives" more or less bad than "Rapers and Slavers" or are they just different wording of the same thing?

I must admit I don't see all that much difference between a salt wife and a young girl who is forced to marry an old man against her will, something we see happen all the time in the greenlands.

[willofDorne]

I must admit I don't see all that much difference between a salt wife and a young girl who is forced to marry an old man against her will, something we see happen all the time in the greenlands.

It's true, that's a main sin of Westeros that women are not allowed to choose who they marry. But this can also be true for men as well. You can't marry for love in a society that depends so heavily on laws of inheritance. I think it's a central theme worth exploring for sure that women are somewhat owned, as they are in modern western society, brides are given away, etc. But... none of this really compares to forced polygamy, which is what's practiced in the Iron Islands. A man can have as many "salt wives" as he likes, basically, instead of raping, it's a continued and prolonged rape, that someone is forced to "like." Hey, don't be sad girl, I'll be back next year when you're ready to whelp again.

I think this is the problem with Iron islanders, they don't think about what other people might think of these practices. i think some women might choose just to be raped once or twice and be done with it. The whole, salt wife thing just sounds like a good way for an Iron Islander to get a knife in his back next time he comes to visit, etc.

The more I think of it, the more I think "Salt Wives" might just be worse than Dothraki rapers, were it not that the rapers tend to to just straight up kill the women they rape often as not, it seems. Perhaps the Dothraki are more realistic about the whole thing, while the Iron Born have some sort of delusion that their culture is advancing.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This shows why Dany is such a hypocrite. She despises the people in Slavers' Bay, but thinks as Drogo as her sun and stars, refers to herself as Khaleesi and puts little warrior bells in her hair because they are so cool.

She despises slavery regardless of culture, when she gets her first form of autonomy the first thing she does is free all the slaves, I don't see how that makes her a hypocrite, It's not like she likes all aspects of the Dothraki culture.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

The dothraki are not that different than the free folk... I feel like the numbers of their warriors are upped, even by grrm purposely... Remember when Dany lost drogo and had her khalisar and most were just old men and injured horsemen... They are not all elite brutes, just very hardened nomads. They travel in huge numbers and worship the strongest scariest dudes amongst them, but only because they know it's all a lie... If the cities knew they weren't all khal drogo or his blood riders, the situation wouldn't work... Gotta stuck it up and act hard...

They are really just in a crappy situation and adapting the best they can.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

She despises slavery regardless of culture, when she gets her first form of autonomy the first thing she does is free all the slaves, I don't see how that makes her a hypocrite, It's not like she likes all aspects of the Dothraki culture.

With this, I think she's more prejudiced than hypocritical... It's not so much that Dany is against slavery... Just the ghiscari ways of slavery... I agree with her bias... I find the ghiscari culture empty of anything of salvageable value... But I see it through her mind

[Hardtack]

The Dothraki have cultural and social restraints on violence...

So does every culture. Aside from murder being unlawful in most places, the Westerosi have very specific injunctions against harming guests, for example. If anything, you are at far greater risk of being a victim of random violence in a Dothraki khalasar, where the fighting men routinely kill each other for fairly minor offenses, than in Westeros, where (outside of a warzone) your chances of violent death don't appear to be all that high.

Their prime goal, also, is not to gain power, land, and influence. They simply seek monetary and logistical gain. Instead of declaring war on everyone and overpowering them, violence takes a backseat to tribute. The Dothraki would rather just extract tribute from places when needed, and go about their business again. This could never happen in Westeros!

This does happen in Westeros. It happens systematically, and it happens with the implication of legal reciprocal obligation from the people exacting tribute. Westeros is a terrible place to live by modern standards, but the existence of a legal structure, imperfect as it is, makes them far better than an overgrown band of marauders (there is no virtue in being 'honest' about your malicious and destructive behavior).

The Dothraki, Ironborn, Wildlings, and other cultures in the book have their fair share of savagery, but you can never forget that Westeros' civility is only a sheen, and underneath, they are the real barbarians. That's the point I GRRM wants to make.

"The real barbarians". Jesus. Look, Westeros is imperfect. Really imperfect - there are unquestionably more admirable societies portrayed in the novels. It's hereditary dictatorship with a military aristocracy where women are a step above chattel, commoners enjoy fewer rights and protections than nobles, and social mobility is virtually non-existent. But it has laws that protect the weak from at least some of the abuses they might otherwise face. It has soldiers whose keep the peace. The social contract is definitely unequal, but it exists and grants the average person greater freedom than to be enslaved.

What do the Dothraki have to commend themselves? "We're going to rape you, murder or enslave you, and take your stuff, or threaten the same unless you pay an exorbitant bribe for us to go away and come back next year." For the Wildings it's much the same - a Hobbesian nightmare.

[Lord Reaver]

It's true, that's a main sin of Westeros that women are not allowed to choose who they marry. But this can also be true for men as well. You can't marry for love in a society that depends so heavily on laws of inheritance. I think it's a central theme worth exploring for sure that women are somewhat owned, as they are in modern western society, brides are given away, etc. But... none of this really compares to forced polygamy, which is what's practiced in the Iron Islands. A man can have as many "salt wives" as he likes, basically, instead of raping, it's a continued and prolonged rape, that someone is forced to "like." Hey, don't be sad girl, I'll be back next year when you're ready to whelp again.

Still no difference from forced marriages, apart from the polygamy aspect. Is that really what bothers you ?

The more I think of it, the more I think "Salt Wives" might just be worse than Dothraki rapers, were it not that the rapers tend to to just straight up kill the women they rape often as not, it seems. Perhaps the Dothraki are more realistic about the whole thing, while the Iron Born have some sort of delusion that their culture is advancing.

The greenlanders are the delusional ones, deluding themselves that their particular brand of enslavement of women and brutality is somehow better. Too bad you've bought into that delusion.

[SeanF]

Still no difference from forced marriages, apart from the polygamy aspect. Is that really what bothers you ? The greenlanders are the delusional ones, deluding themselves that their particular brand of enslavement of women and brutality is somehow better. Too bad you've bought into that delusion.

By and large, Westerosi nobles want their children to enjoy high status, and to benefit from the marriages they arrange for them. Most noble boys and girls would expect their parents to arrange marriages with people of similar status. Some marriages turn out well, and others badly, but few nobles would rather have the freedom to marry some yummy latrine-cleaner, or pretty milkmaid.

A kidnapped salt wife is in a far worse position than the average noble boy or girl of Westeros.

[Lord Reaver]

A kidnapped salt wife is in a far worse position than the average noble boy or girl of Westeros.

Who said anything about nobles ? There is no reason to assume forced marriage is a thing only the upper classes "enjoy".

ETA: That is also a vast oversimplification. By your own sort of example, that "pretty milk maid" could go from abject poverty to being the salt-wife of a king, which would be a vast improvement in living standards.