Dothraki: The most Villainous Culture?

[oursisthefury69]

is the adjective "villainous" applicable to a culture is the first question id ask myself

[Lord Reaver]

Lord Reaver, you're confusing things people get away with with the actual laws. Roose Bolton gets away with prima noctre, but it's not practiced in Westeros and I doubt it's legal.

Sansa marries Tyrion, but she's basically the daughter of a traitor and the Lannister's captive. Yeah, the Lannisters are forcing marriage here, but such is the life of Sansa and the greed and power of Lannisters. I think if she could have refused the Lannisters, and the Lannisters could have done some evil to make her regret it, but none of that would be legal. It's just things they are getting away with, like forcing the Blue Bard to confess.

I see. So when the Ironborn force a woman to marry as a salt-wife, it's tantamount to rape and slavery and utterly horrible and they should all die.

But when greenlanders force a woman to marry, it's "such is life tut-tut".

Hypochrisy at it's absolute finest.

[Wmarshal]

How the hell did this become a ironborn thing? The dothraki have proven the far more savage bunch here, the lords outside of the main greyjoys seem quiet civil and with little campaigning sense the time of Balon's father, i don't think many salt wifes are captured in reavings.

[Gneisenau]

Personally I put the Ironborn as worse, because with their fancy tongues by calling their slaves, thralls, people don't judge them as harshly.

[Jasta11]

I see. So when the Ironborn force a woman to marry as a salt-wife, it's tantamount to rape and slavery and utterly horrible and they should all die.

But when greenlanders force a woman to marry, it's "such is life tut-tut".

Hypochrisy at it's absolute finest.

Sansa is one example of a hostage being forced to marry among a hostile court, and the procedure is seemingly very irregular. It's basically the only marriage at swordpoint I can remember. Plus, the Lannisters are pretty much the lowest of the low as far as Westerosi morality goes, so that's not a grand example. It's certainly nothing legal or expected, Salt wives are.

Most marriages are arranged, and nothing indicates that it's worse among the lower classes. This means a family selects a bride and a groom among suitable children. They might do it for a wide variety of reasons, and the married people are rarely consulted, but it stands to reason that most families will do their best to ensure the marriage is functional in most cases.

A salt wife, however, is presumably often taken from her home by some reaver that may have just been burning down her village and killing the rest of her family, and in those cases she's certainly taken by force. There's no one to ensure there is no abuse, and if you truly think a (potentially very violent) man having absolute power over a woman with no checks or balance is not a recipe for repeated abuse, I have a bridge to Vaes Dothrak to sell you. Some of them are willing salt wives, there's no big problem in those cases however. But an arranged marriage can also be willing.

Still, a Salt Wife is not a slave per se, so on that front the Ironborn are still better than the Dothraki, who give absolutely no fucks about women whatsoever apart from Drogo the Socially Conscious Barbarian Warlord.

Also, you know, maybe people would consider your opinions more if you didn't act like a confrontational arse about them. Just food for thought.

[Lord Damian]

yes, they are villainous but be careful what you say, a mod a while back sent me a personal repremand for speaking too harshly regarding Drogo and the Dothraki as they became a beautiful part to Dany's life progression. I was not given warning points but just FYI, be carefull how you bash the Dothraki and in particular, Drogo.

[Wmarshal]

yes, they are villainous but be careful what you say, a mod a while back sent me a personal repremand for speaking too harshly regarding Drogo and the Dothraki as they became a beautiful part to Dany's life progression. I was not given warning points but just FYI, be carefull how you bash the Dothraki and in particular, Drogo.

How? He raped Dany, how is it bashing to speak what happened?

[ummester]

In the book, I read Dany as instigating the act. In the show, I saw Drogo as taking advantage.

I don't get how Drogo bashing is Dany bashing or vice versa, they are their own characters. Dothraki culture may have been Dany's introduction to independence from her brother, it does not mean that the introduction will be viewed as 'beautiful' by all.

[Lord Damian]

How? He raped Dany, how is it bashing to speak what happened?

I agree but I got "chastized" for being "too harsh" towards him because Dany did fall in love with him or whatever it may be called.

[Mal Malenkirk]

In the book, I read Dany as instigating the act.

Eventually, she instigates and is willing. At first, she was not. If you'd ask her on her first night married to Drogo if she wanted to go through with 'it', it's pretty obvious based on her inner thoughts that she would have answered 'No! Get me out of here!'. That makes it rape by modern definition. Obviously enough, it's not in the Dothraki culture and to be fair, marital rape doesn't exist either in Westeros as far as I know. Jaime Lannister, of all people, is the only character to ever voice clear disapproval on the subject in the famous flashback where Aerys is raping his wife Rhaella. So in that particular regard, the Dothraki are no worse than just about every culture we've been introduced to in this world.

[ummester]

I really don't understand why people are so intent on working out if characters in a fictional story, set in a fictional world, give modern definitions of consent for their love making. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than a fictional character with an arc - Dany was scared by the sight of Drogo at the wedding feast and then not so scared when she was alone with him. Throughout the first book, she had an arc of becoming less scared and more determined - the first night with Drogo was just an element of that.

The thing I found most interesting about the difference between the Dothraki and Dany's introduction in the book vs the show was that the show painted it as a more magical experience, with a more magical resolution, whereas the book painted it as a far more sinister experience, with a sinister resolution, for me.

[kimim]

Eventually, she instigates and is willing. At first, she was not. If you'd ask her on her first night married to Drogo if she wanted to go through with 'it', it's pretty obvious based on her inner thoughts that she would have answered 'No! Get me out of here!'. That makes it rape by modern definition. Obviously enough, it's not in the Dothraki culture and to be fair, marital rape doesn't exist either in Westeros as far as I know. Jaime Lannister, of all people, is the only character to ever voice clear disapproval on the subject in the famous flashback where Aerys is raping his wife Rhaella. So in that particular regard, the Dothraki are no worse than just about every culture we've been introduced to in this world.

Here's a description of their first night, and I really wouldn't describe this as a "rape." I have seen the first three episodes of the show. THERE it was a rape.

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.

It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

****

Anyhow, I think Dany's feelings toward the Dothraki change dramatically after she starts riding the silver horse. It's the first time that she's ever felt powerful and free, and Drogo makes that possible. I really don't think of Drogo as an ideal figure, but I think his relationship with Dany is far too complicated to be reduced to rape, not in the novels. Since I haven't watched much of the show, idk how it's described there.

[ummester]

And before Drogo all Dany had experienced was the spiteful touch of Viserys. She was a frightened victim, the way I read her, sold into a marriage that she didn't want - but victimized more by her brother than anyone else.

From Drogo's perspective, Dany was probably little more than an offering to his barbaric power. Considering that, he did strike me as surprisingly patient and gentle in the book, so he must have had some feeling for her. The way it's written above, if Dany did not invite the act, Drogo may not have forced it.

[Wmarshal]

And before Drogo all Dany had experienced was the spiteful touch of Viserys. She was a frightened victim, the way I read her, sold into a marriage that she didn't want - but victimized more by her brother than anyone else.

From Drogo's perspective, Dany was probably little more than an offering to his barbaric power. Considering that, he did strike me as surprisingly patient and gentle in the book, so he must have had some feeling for her. The way it's written above, if Dany did not invite the act, Drogo may not have forced it.

You do realize for months until Dany learned to have "fun" sex, he would creep at her at night, take her while she barely awake, without her even being aware, ignoring how she wept as he did it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I really don't understand why people are so intent on working out if characters in a fictional story, set in a fictional world, give modern definitions of consent for their love making. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than a fictional character with an arc

I suppose mostly people feels it might reflect their opinions about such subjects in real life, which I've always seen rather silly. I know people who enjoys gore, and that doesn't mean they are violent or dangerous. For instance, I doubt that many here would crucify 163 people.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

yes, they are villainous but be careful what you say, a mod a while back sent me a personal repremand for speaking too harshly regarding Drogo and the Dothraki as they became a beautiful part to Dany's life progression. I was not given warning points but just FYI, be carefull how you bash the Dothraki and in particular, Drogo.

I was given a warning for doing exactly the opposite, but with another character :/

[ummester]

You do realize for months until Dany learned to have "fun" sex, he would creep at her at night, take her while she barely awake, without her even being aware, ignoring how she wept as he did it.

What? I don't remember that in the book at all - I can re-read to make sure, but I thought the scene above was the first time Drogo and Dany got it on.

You're taking the piss, aren't you :blushing:

[ummester]

I suppose mostly people feels it might reflect their opinions about such subjects in real life, which I've always seen rather silly. I know people who enjoys gore, and that doesn't mean they are violent or dangerous. For instance, I doubt that many here would crucify 163 people.

Indeed - fiction is an escape for our minds via imagination, as is discussing the fiction. I enjoy gory and subversive or controversial fictional tales - doesn't mean I approve of killing in real life.

Back OT - whether a reader finds Dothraki savagery villainous or noble, I guess it means the culture is well enough written to strike a cord with the readers.Personally, I find good and bad points in how Martin has set up all of his fictional cultures (that I have read so far) - like the characters, the cultures are grey, so villainous is really a bad descriptor. The Dothraki are possibly the most barbaric of the cultures in ASoIaF, as that is a less subjective way to describe them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What? I don't remember that in the book at all - I can re-read to make sure, but I thought the scene above was the first time Drogo and Dany got it on.

He had sex with her that time and was "kind". Later, he cared little for her feelings. It's in the chapter after their wedding.

Indeed - fiction is an escape for our minds via imagination, as is discussing the fiction. I enjoy gory and subversive or controversial fictional tales - doesn't mean I approve of killing in real life.

Agree.

Back OT - whether a reader finds Dothraki savagery villainous or noble, I guess it means the culture is well enough written to strike a cord with the readers.Personally, I find good and bad points in how Martin has set up all of his fictional cultures (that I have read so far) - like the characters, the cultures are grey, so villainous is really a bad descriptor. The Dothraki are possibly the most barbaric of the cultures in ASoIaF, as that is a less subjective way to describe them.

It's not like there weren't cultures like that in our world. My ancestors were pretty cruel about many things. They kept slaves and made them work as prisoners (slaves were only taken from war prisoners). They also cut men open and let them rot as a punishment. Who is to decided all of them were deserving of death and should have been disappeared?

[ummester]

He had sex with her that time and was "kind". Later, he cared little for her feelings. It's in the chapter after their wedding.

I do recall those descriptions - when he was drinking with his mates around the campfire and then just coming into the tent and taking her for granted afterward, yea? It seemed to me more of a progression of Dany learning not to be victimized - she had to show strength for Drogo to learn to appreciate her again, which he did when she got pregnant and showed him she was determined with the horse heart consumption.

It's not like there weren't cultures like that in our world. My ancestors were pretty cruel about many things. They kept slaves and made them work as prisoners (slaves were only taken from war prisoners). They also cut men open and let them rot as a punishment. Who is to decided all of them were deserving of death and should have been disappeared?

Who were your ancestors?

Most human cultures have gone through various stages of barbarism and civilization and all civilizations still have elements of barbarism.