Side-Eyeing the "Dragonseeds"

[JonBranRickon]

I'm not sure what Dany will do with Tyrion but I believe the grand plan with Illyrio is to have Tyrion take over Casterly Rock so Dany will come to this conclusion one way or another.

[Fred of Ashai]

Actually, he has very good reasons to lie about them all: If word got out that a blacksmith's bastard, a soldier and Nettles were able to ride dragons despite having no confirmed Targaryen lineage, people can start getting ideas. Maybe the Targs aren't the god-like figures they've been leading people to believe they are, etc.

He can't lie and make up Targaryen appearances for them, because that can be easily disputed by people who were there. But he can be evasive about their backgrounds and lay it on a little too thick (see: Hugh being "undeniably" Targaryen because the maester says so that's why).

It's also possible that the maesters genuinely believed the seeds were Targs and, as far as they know, aren't lying, but are still relying on circular logic ("They're Targs because they ride dragons and they ride dragons because they're Targs").

Either scenario is plausible, really.

There is one other plausible scenario: that all of the dragon riders actually had Targaryen blood. That can't be ruled out based in their appearance (Baelor Breakspear didn't look like a Targaryen).

[Brute of Bracken]

There is one other plausible scenario: that all of the dragon riders actually had Targaryen blood. That can't be ruled out based in their appearance (Baelor Breakspear didn't look like a Targaryen).

The way some of the arguments are made, it would seem to be utterly ridiculous to even consider it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

OP's points are all fair. I would submit this for consideration...

The lords freeholder of Valyria ruled the greater part of the known world; they were sorcerers, great in lore, and alone of all the races of man they had learned to breed dragons and bend them to their will.

Forward to The Sworn Sword

[Lord Varys]

That thing is getting to me, too. If dragons were just 'normal magical animals', i.e. when their training could be compared to the taming of real world animals, then it is strange that

- dragonriding was not more common in Martinworld, especially after the Valyrians had shown all their enemies how much an advantage they were in warfare.

- that you (apparently) cannot ride more than one dragon as long as this dragon lives.

The magical quality of the bonding/claiming process is also evident in the fact that huge magical predators like dragons can be ridden by small humans, children even. Real world humans can ride big animals, too, but no one rides a lion or a tiger. The Valyrians of Martinworld rode on fire-breathing tigers and lions of the size of elephants - creatures who naturally prey on human beings.

[Mithras]

There are many Targaryen kids who are given dragon eggs and they are said to be praying day and night to hatch their dragons. This looks innocent but I think there is something more to these “prayers”.

Septon Barth wrote one of the best books about dragonlore and interestingly, his book is banned by the most pious Targaryen king. Baelor was just a puppet of the Faith/Citadel (I don’t see much difference between those two). We also know that Septon Barth was accused to be more sorcerer than a Septon.

So, is there something not said about the manner of these prayers done to hatch the eggs? What did Barth wrote about the hatching of eggs?

I think there is not much trick with riding a dragon. It is just like taming a wild animal, although it is somehow magical and more dangerous. Anybody can do that.

I think the real problem is to hatch dragon eggs by human hand and that process most likely requires Valyrian blood.

If dragons are super weapons and if they can be killed by other dragons easily, the most powerful dragonlord family should be the most successful in mass producing dragons and maintaining them.

I think only the Valyrian women have the ability to hatch dragon eggs at will (see Dany). The Valyrian custom of incest might be related to this. That way, they kept the Valyrian blood, which is required to hatch dragon eggs, pure and also the gooses that laid golden eggs stayed in the family.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There are many Targaryen kids who are given dragon eggs and they are said to be praying day and night to hatch their dragons. This looks innocent but I think there is something more to these prayers.

Septon Barth wrote one of the best books about dragonlore and interestingly, his book is banned by the most pious Targaryen king. Baelor was just a puppet of the Faith/Citadel (I dont see much difference between those two). We also know that Septon Barth was accused to be more sorcerer than a Septon.

So, is there something not said about the manner of these prayers done to hatch the eggs? What did Barth wrote about the hatching of eggs?

I think there is not much trick with riding a dragon. It is just like taming a wild animal, although it is somehow magical and more dangerous. Anybody can do that.

I think the real problem is to hatch dragon eggs by human hand and that process most likely requires Valyrian blood.

If dragons are super weapons and if they can be killed by other dragons easily, the most powerful dragonlord family should be the most successful in mass producing dragons and maintaining them.

I think only the Valyrian women have the ability to hatch dragon eggs at will (see Dany). The Valyrian custom of incest might be related to this. That way, they kept the Valyrian blood, which is required to hatch dragon eggs, pure and also the gooses that laid golden eggs stayed in the family.

...And finding trustworthy riders...

[Mithras]

...And finding trustworthy riders...

Yeah, that is a maintenance issue.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, we don't see many Targaryens 'praying over their eggs' to hatch. Only Baelor, and Lady Rhaena from the Dance (and one of her eggs is very likely to hatch, since Ran has already confirmed that TPatQ did omit one of the dragons during the Dance - the other possible candidate is Viserys' egg).

It seems as if all the dragon eggs hatched during the days of the dragons after they were given to Targaryen children - Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon the Younger, Baela, Jaehaerys, and Jaehaera have all hatchlings hatched from the eggs, only Viserys' egg did not hatch (and Rhaena's hatchling died soon).

Access to dragons can be controlled this way easily enough - don't give them to bastards, for instance. But I don't think that there is much magic to the hatching of a dragon egg. There are wild dragons, who, most likely, procreate naturally, and the real magic trick thing must have to do with the bonding/claiming thing. It creates a bond between dragon and rider that's not broken until one of them dies, and I'd be very surprised indeed if that trick can be done by anyone.

Then the Valyrians would not have been great sorcerers at all. Just guys who happened to tame dragons pretty much anyone could have tamed and ridden. I really don't think this is the case.

[Mrs_Darcy]

There are many Targaryen kids who are given dragon eggs and they are said to be praying day and night to hatch their dragons. This looks innocent but I think there is something more to these “prayers”.

Septon Barth wrote one of the best books about dragonlore and interestingly, his book is banned by the most pious Targaryen king. Baelor was just a puppet of the Faith/Citadel (I don’t see much difference between those two). We also know that Septon Barth was accused to be more sorcerer than a Septon.

So, is there something not said about the manner of these prayers done to hatch the eggs? What did Barth wrote about the hatching of eggs?

I think there is not much trick with riding a dragon. It is just like taming a wild animal, although it is somehow magical and more dangerous. Anybody can do that.

I think the real problem is to hatch dragon eggs by human hand and that process most likely requires Valyrian blood.

If dragons are super weapons and if they can be killed by other dragons easily, the most powerful dragonlord family should be the most successful in mass producing dragons and maintaining them.

I think only the Valyrian women have the ability to hatch dragon eggs at will (see Dany). The Valyrian custom of incest might be related to this. That way, they kept the Valyrian blood, which is required to hatch dragon eggs, pure and also the gooses that laid golden eggs stayed in the family.

Didn't Aegon the third hatch his own dragon?

[Mithras]

We do know a certain Valyrian who used some serious sorcery to hatch dragon eggs. We later see the same Valyrian when she uses no sorcery and nothing at all except her whip to have her first dragon ride. I think the sorcerous part is with the hatching, not riding.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Actually, we don't see many Targaryens 'praying over their eggs' to hatch. Only Baelor, and Lady Rhaena from the Dance (and one of her eggs is very likely to hatch, since Ran has already confirmed that TPatQ did omit one of the dragons during the Dance - the other possible candidate is Viserys' egg).

It seems as if all the dragon eggs hatched during the days of the dragons after they were given to Targaryen children - Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon the Younger, Baela, Jaehaerys, and Jaehaera have all hatchlings hatched from the eggs, only Viserys' egg did not hatch (and Rhaena's hatchling died soon).

Access to dragons can be controlled this way easily enough - don't give them to bastards, for instance. But I don't think that there is much magic to the hatching of a dragon egg. There are wild dragons, who, most likely, procreate naturally, and the real magic trick thing must have to do with the bonding/claiming thing. It creates a bond between dragon and rider that's not broken until one of them dies, and I'd be very surprised indeed if that trick can be done by anyone.

Then the Valyrians would not have been great sorcerers at all. Just guys who happened to tame dragons pretty much anyone could have tamed and ridden. I really don't think this is the case.

Somehow, the dragons must have reproduced before the Valyrians found them, so hatching a dragon probably only is like hatching a bird from an inseminated egg (with heat!).

I do not think, that you need magic to bond with a dragon. There are many real life stories of humans bonding with wild animals (like birds or wolves), because they cared for them/fed them since shortly after their birth. The reason between bond and rider could simply lie in the Targaryens carrying the eggs around with them (even sleeping with them) thus warming the eggs (needed for hatching) and familiarizing the dragons with their voice, etc. (most birds for instance can hear before they leave their egg).

[Mrs_Darcy]

We do know a certain Valyrian who used some serious sorcery to hatch dragon eggs. We later see the same Valyrian when she uses no sorcery and nothing at all except her whip to have her first dragon ride. I think the sorcerous part is with the hatching, not riding.

I agree, that Dany used sorcery to hatch the dragons, but I do not think, that sorcery is always needed. IIRC the eggs Dany is given are called "petrified" or "turned to stone", so they clearly are too old to hatch in a normal way. The eggs the Targs hatch at the time of the Dance of Dragons seem to be fresh. They probably only need the right amount of heat to hatch.

[Mithras]

I think force-hatching a dragon egg requires more than just heat, probably some kind of sacrifice as well. Or maybe it was just necessary for the fossilized eggs. However, the description of Dany’s eggs was no different than ordinary eggs. And Drogon’s egg started to release heat (which only Dany was able to sense) way before any sacrificial death. I am making a reread about the hatching of eggs and whose life paid for which dragon.

Force-bonding should require also some sorcery in the form of horns. A dragon reaches its full potential after 2-3 generations of humans. So, people have to use the old dragons of their ancestors instead of hatching new ones because old dragons are much more powerful. Not everyone is Aemond enough to sit on old hoary beasts and claim them.

I think what horn does is something similar to intimidation and breaking of the spirit similar to what Varamyr did to his animals. The beasts like the shadowcat and the snowbear hated Varamyr but they were powerless to resist as long as he was sane.

Other than horn, any dragon can be tamed through the long way Nettles did and I think that is a healthier bonding than oppressive sorcery.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In that case, being a Targaryen and believing you have a special ability to bond and tame dragons will give you an advantage. If you believe your blood will help you do it, you will be more likely to be brave in the face of the beast, and therefore be able to tame it.

But even that is circular, isn't it? If the mindset is a component (and I think it's fair to say that it is), stepping up to a dragon knowing you're a Targ (or thinking you're a Targ, as the case may be), and thus "supposed" to succeed, would yield the appropriately confident mindset, which would in theory yield success, which would in turn validate the idea that gave you your confidence in the first place.

I just can't shake the feeling that a lot of this is circular and that the correlation/causation has gotten blurred over time.

[Ygrain]

As for egg hatching, I think the recipe is Fire and Blood :P

[Daenor]

To be honest i haven't read all the previous comments so forgive me if i repeat things already said.

Here's my opinion in the matter:

First of all we know for sure that there were many dragonlords before Valyria vanished.Also we do know that Valyrians discovered the dragons at a time when they were simple shepherds and eventually they managed to tame them.IIRC there's some mention about sorcery used in order to achieve this.In any case i don't think that necessarily proves that you need Valyrian blood in order to ride a dragon.

Now concerning the dragonseeds and the dragonriders i think Martin played that in a very smart way.He told us that the common belief was that only Targs or other Valyrians could ride a dragon,he also told us that others tried to tame one of the three "wild" dragons and he finally he didn't make clear whether all the new riders were dragonseeds or descendents of them.But even if they were is this enough proof about the necessity of certain lineage in order to ride a dragon?Personally i think not.The fact that other people also tried and failed could be seen by some as a solid evidence but for me it's only a matter of chances.I mean if 100 people tried to tame the dragons and 90/100 were dragonseeds,well,obviously it would come as no surprise the fact that 3/3 were Targ bastards.

Also i don't think this whole thing was a sort of propaganda but mostly a common belief.Targs came to Westeros riding dragons -->Targs had been known as the only family to posses dragons -->You need to be a Targ to ride a dragon.It's very reasonable in a medieval world for the people to make these kinds of assumptions.

Finally i think that GRRM left some grey zones on purpose ,cause will probably get more information about the matter in the forthcoming books that will clear things up.

PS Maybe my post seems as if i think that definitely a non-Valyrian can ride a dragon.Actually what i wanted to say is that we can't say that only Targs or seeds can be riders for sure and that both cases are possible.

[corbon]

aahh, why bother.

[Lord Varys]

Apple Martini,

I don't think GRRM wants to hammer home the fact that only people with Targaryen blood can ride dragons. Mostly due to the fact that there are two candidates for 'hidden Targaryens' (and possible dragonriders) out there in the main series (Jon Snow, Tyrion), and giving any of them silver-gold hair or purple eyes would have given away the game early on, don't you think?

Both Tyrion and Jon don't have the Targaryen features, but if Rhaenyra's three elder sons (most likely fathered by Harwin Strong) are any indication, then having one non-Targaryen parent doesn't diminish the chances that your dragon egg hatches, and you bond with the beast.

I'm also not sure what kind of purpose Dragonbinder should serve - both in the story, and the history of the Freehold of Valyria - if the regular guy can tame dragons, too. If boldness alone could/is enough, why the hell did GRRM not let Euron/Victarion learn that tidbit of 'truth', and have Vic travel to Slaver's Bay without a cheesy 'magic horn'? Vic surely is bold enough to try to claim a dragon with his fists alone...

As to fossilized dragon eggs:

TPatQ does not describe dragon eggs. It's easily imaginable that Butterwell's dragon egg from TMK is about as old as Dany's eggs in AGoT, if we assume that Aegon the Unworthy gave Butterwell an already petrified dragon egg (Egg tells us in TMK that the Targaryens have younger and older eggs from 'before the Dance'). Thus, if we assume that Butterwell's egg is about 150 years old (and Dany's eggs, too, coming from a clutch of the last she-dragon before her death in the 150s) then it would be explained why they both appear to be stones.

[if the story about Dany's eggs coming from Asshai is true, and they were not stolen from a clutch of Targaryen dragon eggs by Varys, then they must really be very old. But I don't believe that, since there would be little to no reason why the hell Dany would feel connected to 'foreign dragon eggs'.]

I guess 'fresh dragon eggs' don't look like or feel like stones. That would be rather strange, and I'm pretty sure wild dragons don't use blood-and-fire-magic to hatch their eggs...

[Mithras]

I'm pretty sure wild dragons don't use blood-and-fire-magic to hatch their eggs...

Of course but we are talking about humans hatching dragon eggs without actual dragons sitting on them or doing whatever it takes. The feeling of dragon ass over them might be worked out with sorcery.