Jaime's biggest crime

[Faint]

Difficult question and it really depends on what laws we are using. Still, there are so many to chose from.

Murder, aiding and abetting a rape, defenestration -- take your pick.

That said, attempted murder of a child resulting in paralysis of a child . . . well, that one is difficult to top.

[species5618w]

Jaime was 20, seeing how he is seven years older then Tyrion and it happened when Tyrion was 13. Moreover, he was already a member of the Kingsguard thus wasn't under Tywin's control.

Do you think that if his Golden Son had stood his ground and repeatedly defended Tyrion and Tysha that Tywin would have been able to get away with what he did?

I doubt it would make much of a difference. From Tywin's POV, what Tyrion did was stupid, unacceptable and disgraceful. I can't say I disagree with him given the circumstances. Marriages for lordlings were not personal decisions. This is especially true for Tywin given Tytos disastrous relationship with a commoner. He didn't even dare to name her his wife.

Tysha wouldn't have been raped, but the marriage could not have lasted.

[Minsc]

Tysha wouldn't have been raped, but the marriage could not have lasted.

That is still a massive difference.

[Taurerewa]

Jamie of House Lannister.

KingSlayer.

SisterLayer.

ChildCrippler.

I know which I'd rather be called and which I'd rather NOT be known as.

I bet Barristan Selmy would have taken his head off if he had heard what Jamie did to that kid.

[Dofs]

Stood up for Tyrion and Tysha, while placing himself between them and Tywin. Thus, making Tywin realize that he would risk losing him and his loyalty forever if he hurt either one of them. Afterwards, invite Tyrion and Tysha to live in KL with him as I sure Robert wouldn't notice if they took some quarters in the Red Keep.

If anything, Tywin is still a sucker for Jaime.

Tywin would have never allowed Tyrion and Tysha to be together, never. Not even Jaime would be able to make it happen. And Jaime would have known that. You underestimate how much it means for a son of a House like Lannister to marry a commoner. Tywin taking Tysha away from Tyrion was inevitable and there was nothing Jaime could do about that. I am not even sure she would not have been raped either if Jaime haven't lied to Tyrion. What the lie led to is Tyrion's participation in the rape and that's it.

[Pod The Impaler]

I doubt it would make much of a difference. From Tywin's POV, what Tyrion did was stupid, unacceptable and disgraceful. I can't say I disagree with him given the circumstances. Marriages for lordlings were not personal decisions. This is especially true for Tywin given Tytos disastrous relationship with a commoner. He didn't even dare to name her his wife.

It is a lie by Tywin that this was even the reason for what he did to her.

He did it to make Tyrion his monster, and to ruin any chance he had at a normal life.

Tywin despised Tyrion from birth, and never thought he was anything but a burden on the family name - and even, with Jaime in the Kingsguard, refused to accept Tyrion as his heir. Why?

He would not hear of Tyrion becoming a maester, though he was clearly clever enough. Why ? He would not let Tyrion go travelling with his uncle Gerion. Why ?

If Tyrion disgraced the family by his marriage, why did he not simply disinherit him, and let Tyrion and his obscure peasant wife live an obscure peasant life, somewhere away from Casterly Rock ?

The answer to all the above questions was that Tywin was determine that Tyrion should never prove worthy, never be happy, never have any role aside from being a monster. Every time Tyrion ever showed any promise or independence, the first person to crush the life out of it was always his father.

Why else make Tyrion believe Tysha was a whore, then make him rape his innocent wife last of all? Because the idea was to force Tyrion into that "monster" role - he would never have a woman's love; he would never be a normal man; he would do monstrous things for House Lannister because to Tywin that is all he ever could be.

Remember what Arya's comment was - "how many monsters does Tywin have?". Tywin is the lord of the monsters - Amory Lorch, The Mountain, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, the Bloody Mummers. And Tyrion, most of all. Tywin has two classes of people in his life - those he values like Jaime and Cersei and Kevan, and those he thinks are inferior & expendable people, suited only to the horrible tasks that proper Lannisters do not dirty their hands with.

[Kaguya]

Are people still trying to say that killing Aerys was a bad thing?

[Kaguya]

It worths to note,however, that even Cersei told Jaime later that it was unnecessary to throw Bran out of the window. And when Cersei Lannister thinks about an act as unnecessarily agressive, that means a lot about that act :-) Yes, it was a very dangerous situation for them, but remember, Bran was just a little boy, who even did not understand sexuality at all, he thought they were fighting, (And yes, the main fault was continuing their incest anyway after Cersei became queen.)

Cersei only said it was "unnecessary" because Jaime didn't succeed in killing Bran and she was worried he would wake up and confess to what he saw. Had Jaime actually killed Bran no one would have been more happy than Cersei, i'm sure of it.

[thewindofthenorth]

Cersei only said it was "unnecessary" because Jaime didn't succeed in killing Bran and she was worried he would wake up and confess to what he saw. Had Jaime actually killed Bran no one would have been more happy than Cersei, i'm sure of it.

Indeed.

Never at any point in the scene where Jaime nearly killed Bran did Cersei even imply, let alone state she wanted Bran spared or frightened.

In fact, she didn't make a complaint to Jaime until days when she found out he was going to live.

If that doesn't tell you she wanted him dead, in the actual moment where Bran caught them, I don't know what does.

[Baelor Blacktyde]

I don't see how you can give him a pass for siring bastards with Cersei but not for pushing Bran. To me, it is almost the opposite - In the Bran case, I think most people might do the same thing Jaime did in that exact situation, and while it is still a crime, I can understand what he would have thought and I don't think this makes him particularly evil. On the other hand, his blind love for Cersei combined with his own callousness led to the situation in the first place - that is what I feel is the bigger crime.

Remember, I was looking at it from the modern point of view. Having an affair with his sister, who was also the queen's wife, was incredibly dangerous, but not a crime: Robert is constantly cheating on his wife. To take another example, me walking into Joffrey's throne room and calling him a coward and a murderer would be incredibly dangerous - but not a crime.

[Nictarion]

I don't understand why people say he didn't care about his children then. He didn't have fatherly feelings towards them?

The "they're just a squirt in Cersei's cunt" comment probably has something to do with it.

[Bearded Swordsman]

The "they're just a squirt in Cersei's cunt" comment probably has something to do with it.

Maybe if Cersei allowed him to at least spend a half an hour with them thing would be different. But he never was full father to them.

[Dofs]

The "they're just a squirt in Cersei's cunt" comment probably has something to do with it.

People blow this phrase out of proportion.

[John Hulboy]

Saving Elia and her children would have been a good start .having sex and children with his sister should have never happened throwing bran out window would have never happened if he wasn't doing what he was doing.

[Russellstiltskin]

?

[Russellstiltskin]

?

[Russellstiltskin]

It is a lie by Tywin that this was even the reason for what he did to her.

He did it to make Tyrion his monster, and to ruin any chance he had at a normal life.

Tywin despised Tyrion from birth, and never thought he was anything but a burden on the family name - and even, with Jaime in the Kingsguard, refused to accept Tyrion as his heir. Why?

He would not hear of Tyrion becoming a maester, though he was clearly clever enough. Why ? He would not let Tyrion go travelling with his uncle Gerion. Why ?

If Tyrion disgraced the family by his marriage, why did he not simply disinherit him, and let Tyrion and his obscure peasant wife live an obscure peasant life, somewhere away from Casterly Rock ?

The answer to all the above questions was that Tywin was determine that Tyrion should never prove worthy, never be happy, never have any role aside from being a monster. Every time Tyrion ever showed any promise or independence, the first person to crush the life out of it was always his father.

Why else make Tyrion believe Tysha was a whore, then make him rape his innocent wife last of all? Because the idea was to force Tyrion into that "monster" role - he would never have a woman's love; he would never be a normal man; he would do monstrous things for House Lannister because to Tywin that is all he ever could be.

Remember what Arya's comment was - "how many monsters does Tywin have?". Tywin is the lord of the monsters - Amory Lorch, The Mountain, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, the Bloody Mummers. And Tyrion, most of all. Tywin has two classes of people in his life - those he values like Jaime and Cersei and Kevan, and those he thinks are inferior & expendable people, suited only to the horrible tasks that proper Lannisters do not dirty their hands with.

Another possible answer: Tyrion was the last Lannister presumably born of the wife he loved so very much. He was a Lannister,of the same blood as his golden twins. It is interesting to speculate as to Tywin's intentions at various times, but I feel like Tywin already considered him a monster of sorts and didn't think he was capable of much, but he was still his son.

The most important thing to Tywin is the Lannister name: his legacy, the legacy of House Lannister. And Tywin is his trueborn son, who, in Tywin's mind, married a girl who could not want Tyrion for anything but his money (Tywin applying his own standards and thinking on Tysha) so he humiliates her, making harder for Tyrion to love her and want to be married in the process. For good measure, he removes her entirely and even concocts a story he believes is partially true. Tywin certainly has a cruel streak, but he's never lacked for guile and strategic thought. Ridding Tyrion of this marriage he deems beneath even Tyrion saves face for House Lannister while preserving the chance for Tyrion to wed for political reasons down the road. Through these marriages, if nothing else, Tyrion can serve House Lannister and further enhance their legacy.

Casterly Rock could still stay with the Lannisters, Tywin could name another heir if he felt the need (Lord Walder mentioned doing this to spite his other children,) but I don't think Tywin felt the rules applied to him, so I don't think he ever ruled Jaime out completely, while always trying to keep his options open.

The point about Tyrion wanting to be a maester is a good question though. He could be valuable as a maester, but only if he chose to spy and still serve House Lannister, which is iffy...much better odds that at the very least Tywin can appease some Lord he wants to reward or show favor to by allowing him to marry into the line of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, is one potential answer to your question. I think this makes more sense.

[Russellstiltskin]

Jamie of House Lannister.

KingSlayer.

SisterLayer.

ChildCrippler.

I know which I'd rather be called and which I'd rather NOT be known as.

I bet Barristan Selmy would have taken his head off if he had heard what Jamie did to that kid.

Selmy wasn't a vigilante.

[Russellstiltskin]

Maybe if Cersei allowed him to at least spend a half an hour with them thing would be different. But he never was full father to them.

He wasn't anything but a sperm donor as far as fatherhood goes.

[Russellstiltskin]

Since you agree that he thought about Cersei, who is a woman he loves, I'm not sure what your point is. Like a common man, he does think about a person he loves.

Well, Jaime's case is obviously an extreme one, but most people wouldn't attempt to murder in a similar situation, IMO. But because of who Jaime is, he thought of murdering Bran first, whereas most people (assuming the considered murdering an innocent, defenseless boy in his father's castle while staying there as a guest) would most likely think of the consequences of being found out, and, if unbearable, may then consider murder, if at all. But Jaime is different, in so very many ways. His very name conjures up thoughts of some of the most despicable crimes in the eyes of the Gods and men of Westeros (regicide, oathbreaking, some now know, or suspect him of his incestuous relationship with Cersei) so many lines of thought and logic that would occur to an ordinary individual may not occur to the violent, privileged, and impulsive young knight. So he thinks to kill first, without some of the hesitation and fear a "common man" would likely feel.

In this instance, I don't feel like because he committed acts a, b, and c, that he then must necessarily commit act "d." So, whatever his prior deeds, he had the free will and the capacity to choose whether to kill Bran. Given this, I feel like it's appropriate to judge pushing Bran from the tower window to the other acts mentioned, for the purposes of this discussion. And the murder of an unarmed boy, while you are a guest in his home, is certainly much more vile than his relationship with Cersei when looked at in this way.

Don't get me wrong, though. I understand your argument, though I wondered if you were listening to mine. I just disagree in this instance. It seems we have a pretty fundamental difference of opinion...Whatever the case though, thinking about this has made me wish we had a PoV of Jaime's during his key moments in the first half or so of GoT! It would be enlightening, especially given our discussion.