[BOOK & TV SPOILERS] Shae in Tywin's bed

[Lady Fevre Dream]

People conveniently forget that D&D have been told by GRRM himself how everything plays out, in another words: THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU. Lose the tinfoil hats.

I'm still not understanding where D&D's extra information from GRRM means much of anything, scene by scene and story by story, not to mention, character by character. Sometimes they create their own stuff, sometimes they use George's stuff, and it may be a long time before we know how much all their extra intelligence really winds up on our screens. Hmmmmmmm, they put a baby, excuse me, a fetus of Baratheon blood named Edric into a jar. Does that mean that Edric Storm is the Westerosi equivalent of a walking abortion, or excuse me, miscarriage. Perhaps ShowEdric is.....a Qyburn experiment gone wrong? Perhaps it's nothing other than.........nothing? They do seem fond of nothing, after all. I'm expecting that ShowEdric's existance in a jar has nothing to do with.....what may or may not happen in relation to Book Edric or those who went with him. Or wait, MAYBE......Edric will return to Westeros, but he'll be dead, pickled in a jar? Is that what D&D's extra knowledge may mean? Nah, I'm gonna go with...nothing is nothing. I'd ask if any of the Edric stuff on the show says anything else about all the other Baratheon bastards in the books, but still, I suspect, nothing. I do wonder if the fetus count, though, was something? LOL

As far as GRRM's above quote about Varys in relation to this finale scene, I'm betting it could just be something as simple as Varys KNEW what Tyrion would find when he climbed the ladder, maybe it's just about Varys knowledge, or manipulations, somehow and when he wants to reveal them. Honeslty, though, this is where I point out that GRRM holds onto info too long at times too, or.........leaves way too many questions dangling which makes everything look like a grand conspiracy, to some.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This is the very first change they've made that significantly bothers me. It's a screw-up; it made the Tywin murder scene inferior to what it would've been, and will have ongoing ramifications.

As someone else has suggested, it's a spoiler, too: it means Tyrion and Jaime will likely never meet again, because the fight over Tysha would certainly matter if they did.

I disagree with the bolded, for at least two reasons. One, I count nothing D&D do to mean much of anything for the all around endgame, it's going to be hard to figure out what is actual spoiler material and what is their own inventions without book basis going forward. Second, I suspect that Tyrion will eventually make peace with Jaime, at least in his own mind, over the Tysha issue. Jaime has never thought once about the rape, if he had been there for that, I think he would think about it as it's obvious that rape is something with which he has a big problem. I find it interesting both that Jaime seems to have departed for KL after he lied to Tyrion, and that Tywin himself didn't perform this monstrosity in front of his golden son. If Jaime had been there for the actual rape, I don't think Tyrion would forgive him. Tyrion's ability to forgive and make peace with Jaime will equate with his ability to try and forgive himself, after all, he's trying to come to terms with his own wrong doing in the Tysha matter. As a fellow son of Tywin Lannister, I think Tyrion of all should, and will eventually, undertstand. Whether they meet again, I couldn't say, but I do think there's more of a chance than many think. JMO.

[Cas Stark]

I disagree with the bolded, for at least two reasons. One, I count nothing D&D do to mean much of anything for the all around endgame, it's going to be hard to figure out what is actual spoiler material and what is their own inventions without book basis going forward. Second, I suspect that Tyrion will eventually make peace with Jaime, at least in his own mind, over the Tysha issue. Jaime has never thought once about the rape, if he had been there for that, I think he would think about it as it's obvious that rape is something with which he has a big problem. I find it interesting both that Jaime seems to have departed for KL after he lied to Tyrion, and that Tywin himself didn't perform this monstrosity in front of his golden son. If Jaime had been there for the actual rape, I don't think Tyrion would forgive him. Tyrion's ability to forgive and make peace with Jaime will equate with his ability to try and forgive himself, after all, he's trying to come to terms with his own wrong doing in the Tysha matter. As a fellow son of Tywin Lannister, I think Tyrion of all should, and will eventually, undertstand. Whether they meet again, I couldn't say, but I do think there's more of a chance than many think. JMO.

I agree, that change means nothing in the scheme of things and I am sure that Tyrion and Jamie will mend fences, since Book Tyrion massively overreacted to that info anyway.

I still believe throwing in 30 seconds about his wife Tysha in the final convo. with Tywin would have lended weight to the scene, because even in the show...the only two women that he ever formed any type of bond with..his father destroyed...the first he had gang raped and sent wherever whores go, the second, he fucked himself! I'm sure D&D could have drawn a nice parallel there...if they had taken an HOUR OR TWO to work out the dialogue there.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I disagree with the bolded, for at least two reasons. One, I count nothing D&D do to mean much of anything for the all around endgame, it's going to be hard to figure out what is actual spoiler material and what is their own inventions without book basis going forward. Second, I suspect that Tyrion will eventually make peace with Jaime, at least in his own mind, over the Tysha issue. Jaime has never thought once about the rape, if he had been there for that, I think he would think about it as it's obvious that rape is something with which he has a big problem. I find it interesting both that Jaime seems to have departed for KL after he lied to Tyrion, and that Tywin himself didn't perform this monstrosity in front of his golden son. If Jaime had been there for the actual rape, I don't think Tyrion would forgive him. Tyrion's ability to forgive and make peace with Jaime will equate with his ability to try and forgive himself, after all, he's trying to come to terms with his own wrong doing in the Tysha matter. As a fellow son of Tywin Lannister, I think Tyrion of all should, and will eventually, undertstand. Whether they meet again, I couldn't say, but I do think there's more of a chance than many think. JMO.

Responding to the bolded parts:

On your first point, maybe you're right; I disagree with you, but we're both just guessing. But I think more highly of the show creators than many around here; while I think they're fairly casual about changing minor characters (e.g., ripping Marillion's tongue out in Season 1 when he was going to be needed later is probably something they didn't really think through), I don't think they make major changes in the major character arcs of major characters without some thought for the future story implications. And really, maybe you're right; I'm not trying to argue that I'm right here, I'm just trying to clarify what we disagree about, which is this: I have enough respect in the long-term planning of the showmakers that when they do a 180 on the relationship between Tyrion and Jaime that means they probably aren't concerned about having that change ever play out, which means Tyrion will probably never see Jaime again. I don't feel certain about that at all, but I do think it carries that implication and it has some weight.

On your second point, whether Tyrion will make peace with Jaime over Jaime's connivance with Tywin in the Tysha backstory . . . well, we know he won't make peace on that with him in the show, because he never learns what happened in order to be able to make peace about it. Which sucks. But in the book, what will happen? On this ground your idea that they will make peace is pure speculation. They might and they might not; there are certainly other logical possibilities and Tyrion's very reaction to Jaime makes it difficult just to slough it over. As for me, I'm mighty curious about what will happen the next time Jaime and Tyrion meet in the books . . . but I'm a little less curious now that I've seen what looks like a spoiler. That lets a little air of that story from my perspective, which sucks because I see it as a critical plot point.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Responding to the bolded parts:

On your first point, maybe you're right; I disagree with you, but we're both just guessing. But I think more highly of the show creators than many around here; while I think they're fairly casual about changing minor characters (e.g., ripping Marillion's tongue out in Season 1 when he was going to be needed later is probably something they didn't really think through), I don't think they make major changes in the major character arcs of major characters without some thought for the future story implications. And really, maybe you're right; I'm not trying to argue that I'm right here, I'm just trying to clarify what we disagree about, which is this: I have enough respect in the long-term planning of the showmakers that when they do a 180 on the relationship between Tyrion and Jaime that means they probably aren't concerned about having that change ever play out, which means Tyrion will probably never see Jaime again. I don't feel certain about that at all, but I do think it carries that implication and it has some weight.

On your second point, whether Tyrion will make peace with Jaime over Jaime's connivance with Tywin in the Tysha backstory . . . well, we know he won't make peace on that with him in the show, because he never learns what happened in order to be able to make peace about it. Which sucks. But in the book, what will happen? On this ground your idea that they will make peace is pure speculation. They might and they might not; there are certainly other logical possibilities and Tyrion's very reaction to Jaime makes it difficult just to slough it over. As for me, I'm mighty curious about what will happen the next time Jaime and Tyrion meet in the books . . . but I'm a little less curious now that I've seen what looks like a spoiler. That lets a little air of that story from my perspective, which sucks because I see it as a critical plot point.

I never claimed any of my ideas, show or book, weren't speculation.

As far as my ideas about what is and isn't going to be spoiler material on the show, it really has nothing to do with my opinion about the show or it's runners. It has to do with the articles out and about from the show runners stating that their story will have differences. Of course Jaime and Tyrion making peace is about the books, did I miss a new fight of theirs on the screen?

I am curious about Jaime and Tyrion's fates in the books and whether or not they do encounter each other again. I can't say anything the show did makes me think that there is more or less of a chance of them seeing each other again or how it would turn out. I agree it would suck if something on the show takes too much air out of happenings in the books. That's why I do try to first, keep them somewhat separate entities in my mind, and two, am not going to allow myself to take show changes past or future, as book canon. What happens, happens, in each. I just think readers should be careful about taking anything going forward in the show as final word about the books.

[WikkedLoli]

This is the first I've heard of Varys being involved in the Shae/Tywin bedding. At first I thought it couldn't be true. How would he even know for certain that Tyrrion would risk his freedom by going to his father's rooms? But Varys has said that he cares for the good of the realm (while saving his own butt for sure), and what other way would be better for Lannisters to go down but at the hands of Lannisters? Also, he was helping Tyrrion to escape and was going to go back until the bells started tolling and he realized what must have happened. Which made him turn around and join Tyrrion in escaping. So, I'm torn here and I look forward to finding the truth out about this. I guess it is possible that Varys put Shae in Tywin's grasp at some point, but didn't realize how/when it would end.

And I do believe that Tyrrion went there with the intent of killing his father. Why else risk being captured again. There had been enough talk, his father has hated him his whole life. He refused him Casterly Rock and refused him to love below his station - and we know how ugly that situation turned out.

I never cared for Shae. She did go back and forth between acting a strong love of Tyrrion and a whiny b*tch about his marrying Sansa. Which is part of the reason why I wish the scene with Tyrrion and his father could have had mention of Tysha and his love for her, not Shae. I hope that some more of Tysha will come out in the future, in the books if not the show.

[CaptainTheo]

In terms of the TV show, I agree that without the Tysha reveal, Tyrion lacked sufficient reason to go and kill his father. He has just been released by his best friend (and brother) and one would think that he wants to make sure that he gets out of there in one piece. He loves Jaime and ought to be aware that killing Tywin will seriosuly hurt Jaime. Not to mention that Kinslaying in Westeros is considered as awful a crime as violating guest right. Tywin may have been an awful father to Tyrion but did take a number of actions that favoured him:

• He did not kill him when he was born (because it would be kinslaying)
  
• He was always generous with providing him money
  
• He started a war because Tyrion was arrested
  
• He appointed Tyrion Acting Hand of the King and later Master of Coin
  
• He arranged a marriage for Tyrion to the supposed heir to the North - not one that he wanted, but it would give him lots of power
  
• He gave Tyrion an opportunity to "confess" and take the black
  

Yes, Tywin sentenced him to death, but presumably he was forced to do so due to the rules of trial by combat. I agree with the poster/s who said that if anyone was begging to be killed by Tyrion, it was Cersei (which I would have vastly preferred, as I was quite a fan of Tywin on TV, for being such a great villain). So why not kill her instead? Not only has she never done anything to favour Tyrion, but she was the real driver behind his imprisonment and sentence, and did the following actions to hurt him:

• Abused him as a baby
  
• Captured and tortured who she thought was Tyrion's whore
  
• May have set Ser Mandon Moore up to kill him
  
• Helped poison Tywin against Tyrion by ratting on him after Blackwater, while he was recovering from his wounds
  
• Had him arrested for his supposed murder of Joffrey
  
• Tried to get Jaime to kill him
  
• Refused to listen to Jaime's reason that Tyrion couldn't possibly be guilty as charged
  
• Paid off Bronn
  
• Orchestrated a sham trial where a number of witnesses gave perjury, and prevented Tyrion from speaking or having witnesses of his own
  
• Turned Shae against him
  
• Unsuccesfully tried to influence Oberyn against him
  

[sati]

Tysha mentions - apparently there were 4...plus that look between Jaime and Tyrion in, I think, 4x06 http://littlesati.tumblr.com/post/91359153578/him-e-tysha-mentioned-in-game-of-thrones

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Tysha mentions - apparently there were 4...plus that look between Jaime and Tyrion in, I think, 4x06 http://littlesati.tumblr.com/post/91359153578/him-e-tysha-mentioned-in-game-of-thrones

I do have to ask.........why did they ever even tell us about Tysha? I guess it was just for the Poor Tyrion factor?

It does just make say just about the same thing as Tyrion did in that last little snippet you provided: They should have never told us about that............not if they weren't going to use it.

[Le Cygne]

When they build up to it, they don't do it. When they don't build up to it, they do it.

Maybe that's the rule.

Perhaps related to the, wouldn't it be cool if the character did the opposite of what they did in the books? rule.

And if that fails to explain it, there's always "Nothing is just nothing." Nothing matters, so... whatever.

[sati]

I do have to ask.........why did they ever even tell us about Tysha? I guess it was just for the Poor Tyrion factor?

It does just make say just about the same thing as Tyrion did in that last little snippet you provided: They should have never told us about that............not if they weren't going to use it.

I think they initially were going to follow the books but while writing s4 genuinely thought Shae being the trigger is better than complex Tysha reason. Bad writing, combined with arrogance, is what happened.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think they initially were going to follow the books but while writing s4 genuinely thought Shae being the trigger is better than complex Tysha reason. Bad writing, combined with arrogance, is what happened.

ITA, I do think they decided against Tysha at the last moments, and yes, it can be put down to a lot of arrogance and thinking they know, oh so much better. RME