[BOOK & TV SPOILERS] Shae in Tywin's bed

[Pod The Impaler]

That Shae went right for her knife was one thing I did think believable - how could she talk her way out of that situation? She couldn't. Show Shae is more worldly than book Shae, and more capable of defending herself also.

Aside from this though, I am still bummed that Tysha got the Damnatio memoriae treatment by the show writers. :crying:

[Warg Arry]

Season 2 is when the story of Tysha is told - Link to that moment.

Over and again they have solved the issue of "no one will remember. It's been too long." - With previously on.

Tysha is now the established story and history of Tyrion Lannister in the show. We have this episode in season 2 to thank for that.

What Jaime confesses to Tyrion is a pivotal moment of change. Mind body and spirit. Not just in Tyrion but in Jaime as well.

Future book spoilers

This is the moment that Jaime. A man who has thrown in Catelyn's face that unlike Ned. He at least is utterly faithful to the woman he loves.

So now he is shaken up. And as a man now in the know. He now actively chooses a path away from Cersei. He ignores her pleas for help. He is completely done with her. And from the Jaime POV the way Tyrion's retort about Cersei replays over in his head. He's a little broken over it.

Sure they can achieve this a different way. Have him discover her with someone. Or Lancel confesses.

I don't expect an exact translation of the book to screen. I know that's not possible. I've even loved the choices the show runners have gone with in a quite a few instances. In this episode Brienne vs the Hound. That was great to watch.

But the Tysha moment had great impact on me. On the story on the characters. And what is strange to me is. They set up the pins but bowled down a different alley. And instead of what could have been a stunning strike. IMO they barely made the spare.

(Holy crap where did that bowling reference come from... Hopefully you know what I mean.)

As a side note. On the video of that scene I linked. Watching the whole thing. And now we are at the end of Shae's life. It's strange the whole

set up and mysteriousness of Shae's back story. It just hasn't paid off. Has it?

[Le Cygne]

So did I miss this or does Jaime have no clue Cersei has been unfaithful? Since he's fucking her in the White Tower now and all. Poor Lancel, he's like an afterthought.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

Show-Shae really loved Tyrion -- at least that's how she was written. Scenes were created just to convince us that she loved Tyrion, scenes not in the book. Her behavior in that final scene just made no sense. Why did she call Tywin "My lion"? Why did she go for the knife the second she saw Tyrion?

No, it didn't work. Not at all.

Thank you. I have always defended Tv!Shae's characterization up until now, even through the Trial (she was half-coerced, half-bitter, duh). I expected Tyrion to murder her. I expected Shae to try to put up a fight, but her being the attacker? And just after an initial look? Wow...that was not believable from a couple who have been together 1-2 years they would at least have said something.

That Shae went right for her knife was one thing I did think believable - how could she talk her way out of that situation? She couldn't. Show Shae is more worldly than book Shae, and more capable of defending herself also.

Aside from this though, I am still bummed that Tysha got the Damnatio memoriae treatment by the show writers. :crying:

How can she talk her way out? Easy. "Omg! Tyrion! Your father and sister threatened to kill me, you were right! We can't beat them!" and then the book line "..Have you come to take me away?" followed by Giant of Lannister "My Lion.." and then the book line "That was the wrong thing to say, sweetling" and then he chokes her, she tries to grab the knife, maybe even gets a stab or slice in, but he finishes her first. Tragic, completely in line with Shae's characterization that she is a fighter and truly loves him, and indicates a dark turn for Tyrion, because he kills her not of self-defense, but because she merely humiliated him.

Unfortunately the showwriters tried hard to revert the "true love" bit of Shae by selling you "She was a whore all along!" This is a hallmark of bad writing.

[Kaguya]

The problem is, the show is trying to have it both ways. The writers went out of their way to make it clear that Shae loved Tyrion, and that she wasn't out for money - she wasn't just a whore. But that scene last night certainly suggested otherwise. Not only did she call Tywin "My lion" (her love-name for Tyrion), but the second she saw Tyrion she went for that knife to kill him! So now what are we supposed to think?

I honestly don't get it. And why did Tyrion go up to the Tower of the Hand in the first place? There was no Tysha reveal, no reason for Tyrion to visit dear old dad. And the suggestion is that Tyrion killed Tywin because of Shae. She was in Tywin's bed, and Tyrion was forced to kill her (he felt so bad about having to do that, but he did have to do it, right?), and it's all Tywin's fault. So he kills his father because it was Tywin's fault that he had to kill the woman he loved.

Contrived, annoying, and ultimately weak. And with Tyrion and Jaime on such good terms, what motivation does Tyrion have now for joining forces with Dany against the Lannisters???

Couldn't agree more.

[Danelle]

So did I miss this or does Jaime have no clue Cersei has been unfaithful? Since he's fucking her in the White Tower now and all. Poor Lancel, he's like an afterthought.

My guess is that in the 5th season there will be a scene where Jaime discovers that Cersei has betrayed him.

Who knows?

Perhaps they will replace Osmund with Bronn....

[Ittiz]

Personally I think they botched the scene, but it could be because I had previous expectations about it from reading the book. I knew something was amiss with the who Tysha story in the show when Tyrion told Jamie he didn't kill Joffery while still in his cell. This totally changes the conversation Tyrion had with Jamie in the book when Jamie breaks him out. In the book Jamie felt like he owed Tyrion one for going along with Tywin's plan to get Tyrion away from Tysha. In the show that aspect totally isn't there at all. Tyrion and Jamie part on a high note instead of a low like they did in the book.

The scene relied on many aspects that were completely cut out of the show. I think they are trying to avoid the whole Tysha thing for a reason. Probably for saving time later on, maybe making Tyrion look a little more sane in the end. It could be they want to cut many of his later obsessive scenes about Tysha for time saving. Also in the books GRRM hinted recently we will see Tysha again. My feeling is that it won't go well for Tyrion, and it will be a watershed moment for him. It could be they wanted to avoid that whole fiasco in the show.

All in all like people have pointed out, I think most of the changes they made to the show is because they know more than we do about how the story develops. They know which major characters will die and when, maybe even how. The first few seasons most of the changes they made to the show made sense, we could see how it was going to lead to where we are now. However this season they are aiming for an area where we may assume, but not know how it's supposed to end up. Since we don't know for sure whats going to happen in the next couple books and we don't know how the show has to alter their events to get there the way they want.

Hopefully by the next season the next book is out and the reasons things were done they way they were in the show will make more sense.

[King Tyrion I]

That's my point: nobody did.

Tysha is mentioned. In the first season. When Bronn, Tyrion and Shae have a drinking game. Tyrion even uses her name.

I liked this scene in this episode although it was different from the books.

And Tyrion going up to the Tower of the Hand to kill his father? He was pretty pissed off, expected to die on the very next day. Tywin's domination over him and his previous attempts to get rid of him were just too much to stomach any longer.

Of course, that friendly bye bye between Tyrion and Jaime sets things in another direction, but we don't know what D&D know.

Shae in Tywin's bed? She's a whore after all. And Tywin's still the most powerfull man in KL/Westeros up to this point.

[Seneti]

Future book spoilers

This is the moment that Jaime. A man who has thrown in Catelyn's face that unlike Ned. He at least is utterly faithful to the woman he loves.

So now he is shaken up. And as a man now in the know. He now actively chooses a path away from Cersei. He ignores her pleas for help. He is completely done with her. And from the Jaime POV the way Tyrion's retort about Cersei replays over in his head. He's a little broken over it.

Sure they can achieve this a different way. Have him discover her with someone. Or Lancel confesses.

Well, I don't know how they are going to fix Tyrion's Tysha storyline (if they are going to do it at all), but here's a thought that just came to me on how to fix the relationship between Jaime/Cersei (given what we know about season 5 so far from the leaked audition tapes):

1) They argue over releasing Tyrion. Jaime realises Cersei's descent into madness

2) Cersei sends Jaime and Bronn to Dorne to retrieve Myrcella.

3) Cersei starts manipulating Kettleblack into seducing Margaery. (We really only need one Kettleblack)

4) Bronn is sent to hunt after Dark Star.

5) Jaime fails to bring Myrcella back to KL. Cersei is mad and send him to the Riverlands instead.

6) Jaime meets Lancel and finds out about him and Cersei.

7) Cersei is arrested and Kettleblack testifies.

8) News of this reaches Jaime and he decides he's finally had enough of Cersei (witch hunt for Tyrion, cheating on him with one of his cousins and one of his fellow KG), burns her letter and then meets Brienne.

That way, both of their story lines (and relationships) end up right where they need to be.

[thadcastle]

I thought that the reason that Tyrion was in the Tower of the Hand was because Tywin was keeping him in a special cell under it, rather than the normal cells. Is that not right?

[Young Nan]

This quote is from a GRRM interview a couple days ago about the last episode. I have always hated the "Shae was planted by Varys" theory, because it requires so many different variables to come together in such a specific way that it seems illogical. But it seems like Martin is strongly hinting at it here. Thoughts?

Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that's not clear]? Or did he just not care?

Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said you will not bring that whore to court, and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, thats something I dont really want to talk about because theres still aspects of it I havent revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

[Woman of War]

It could be right the other way: Tywin contacted Shae and made her his spy. And Varys saw the danger looming over Tyrion and tried to get her out without Tywin knowing.

[The brown snake]

Well, I don't know how they are going to fix Tyrion's Tysha storyline (if they are going to do it at all), but here's a thought that just came to me on how to fix the relationship between Jaime/Cersei (given what we know about season 5 so far from the leaked audition tapes):

1) They argue over releasing Tyrion. Jaime realises Cersei's descent into madness

2) Cersei sends Jaime and Bronn to Dorne to retrieve Myrcella.

3) Cersei starts manipulating Kettleblack into seducing Margaery. (We really only need one Kettleblack)

4) Bronn is sent to hunt after Dark Star.

5) Jaime fails to bring Myrcella back to KL. Cersei is mad and send him to the Riverlands instead.

6) Jaime meets Lancel and finds out about him and Cersei.

7) Cersei is arrested and Kettleblack testifies.

8) News of this reaches Jaime and he decides he's finally had enough of Cersei (witch hunt for Tyrion, cheating on him with one of his cousins and one of his fellow KG), burns her letter and then meets Brienne.

That way, both of their story lines (and relationships) end up right where they need to be.

I am liking this!!!

Off to Dorne maybe with Oberyns remains as well?

[Danelle]

I am liking this!!!

Off to Dorne maybe with Oberyns remains as well?

Perhaps he might bring Gregor's skull as well...

[Ittiz]

Yeah I've thought in the past that, although LF and the Tyrells were responsible for Joffery's death, after Tyrion was accused, Varys helped orchestrate the trial to get Tyrion convicted so he could get Tyrion "on his side". Once Vary's pretenders (Aegon, Dany or both) try to take over the 7 kingdoms it would help a lot if the legitimate heir to the richest house in the 7 kingdoms (house Lannister) and Casterly rock is on his side. I would assume Shae was another tool in his arsenal. Both for getting Tyrion convicted and possibly with Tywin some how. I don't think it was an accident that Shae was in Tywin's bed that night, but I don't think she was planted there. I think Varys made sure she'd be there with Tywin through his normal manipulations so that Tyrion would see, get angry and hopefully kill his father. Since we know it was Varys plan already by that point to start removing stabilizing forces.

[poggo]

Well... the Varys-theory is bad, but... I really dont get, why else she would be in Tywins bed.

Tywin has enough gold for an personal harem...so why Shae??? I mean its much too "playfull-evil-villain"-style to use Shae as a personal whore, after she denounced Tyrion.

Why would a pragmatic Tywin do such a thing? It just makes no sense to me.

[Frey Pentos]

Tyrion's motivation for entering his fathers chamber is clear in the books but I think the show missed a trick with this scene. Without the Tysha reveal there really is no reason for Tyrion to go up there and put his escape at risk.

[Jairion Lannister]

Tyrion's motivation for entering his fathers chamber is clear in the books but I think the show missed a trick with this scene. Without the Tysha reveal there really is no reason for Tyrion to go up there and put his escape at risk.

Intrigue maybe? I think he'd have had enough to kill Tywin without the whole Shae thing because of being sentenced to death, but Shae being there sealed the deal. Still, he'd have probably killed him without her being there.

[Natalia Borgia]

They all knew about her- Varys is a double agent and told the queen so he would have some leverage over Tyrion. Varys mentioned in AcoK that the entrance to Chataya's was for another hand.

Tywin's reign as hand would have been 30 years or so before this point so I have always thought the brothel entrance was for him. The man who paraded his father's paramour naked through Lannisport, had his daughter in law raped by his soldiers for being a "whore", and reviled his son's whoring. This makes Tywin pretty much the biggest hypocrite of all- rather than commiserate with his son over women he instead makes Tyrion feel weak..

He needed to die.

[SynthFG]

Tyrion's motivation for entering his fathers chamber is clear in the books but I think the show missed a trick with this scene. Without the Tysha reveal there really is no reason for Tyrion to go up there and put his escape at risk.

His father has condemned him to death for a crime that both know full well he did not commit

That's more than enough motivation to go and confront him for one last time