Dragons north of the Wall? (TWOW spoilers)

[ShieldMayden]

Am I crazy to think that the ice dragon is in the wall?

When Melisandre said she felt most powerful up at the wall and previous mentions of magic getting stronger since Danys dragons were born (house of the undying i believe?), i always thought that there was a dragon encased in the wall which would be released by someone or something that had the power to knock the wall down.

Not crazy at all, that's what I'm thinking as well. Especially given how often Jon mentions the ice dragon and Old Nan's tales. So far all of Old Nan's tales seem to prove true so why not this one?

[Boltons Bastard]

I like the idea of firewyms. A second species of mythological fire-breathing badass would be an excellent addition to the story. I believe the lore on firewyms is that they only dig and tunnel underground.

Perhaps the tunnels beneath Castle Black could be invaded by a firewym, and Jon Snow leads men down there to fight the fell beast and perishes in the attempt. He could be resurrected by Mel in the same way Beric is by Thoros, while the fires in the tunnels rage on. The NW keep their salted cod and salted beef down in the tunnels, so the "born amid salt and smoke" prophecy is confirmed as true.

[The Night's Prince]

When I read TP&TQ I noted that the Dragon Sheepstealer and her rider (can't remember the girl's name) flew away from the Riverlands after being warned by Prince Daeron of approaching treachery. Sheepstealer was never seen again, if I recall correctly. Given the known long life of Dragons it is entirely possible that Sheepstealer is still alive somewhere. If it had returned to Dragonstone or was anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms its presence would have been noticed. North of the wall? It's possible, but nothing has been mentioned in the books that would even hint at a Dragon lurking up there, unless of course you include the possibility of the stories of 'firewyrms' at Hardhome.

I don't think Sheepstealer was that big honestly. But I like the idea of an ice dragon.

[ApKing06]

Not crazy at all, that's what I'm thinking as well. Especially given how often Jon mentions the ice dragon and Old Nan's tales. So far all of Old Nan's tales seem to prove true so why not this one?

Thanks. I would think this would be the reason Cold Hands couldn't go through the gate as well.

If dragon glass can kill an Other then actual dragons must be hell on Wights/Others/Walkers.

[Arkash]

Can someone remind me how many times exaclty has Old Nan or Jon mentionned an Ice Dragon ?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I guess the question is if the horn that Mance found is not from a dragon, what animal could it be from. It is even bigger than Euron's horn and so must have come from a creature much bigger than Balerion. I don't believe we have seen any creature in asoiaf that grows so big other than dragons.

You seem to be assuming that all horned animals have the same (horn length) to (body size) ratio. While this should hold within a given species, it doesn't hold between different species. In other words, it is quite easy to imagine a bovine animal that is smaller than a particular dragon, but still has longer horns. We don't even know how long the horns of the various identified dragons are, do we?

Mance's Horn, excavated from the grave of a giant, probably came from some now extinct northern bovine megafauna - perhaps the Giant Wooly Aurochs.

[Arkash]

Dire-Aurochs would be badass ! ^^

[AdesteFideles]

If you look at the released picture of the fully-grown Balerion, you will see dragons can have pretty big horns.

[Unicorn34]

The horn that Mance found could have also come from a dragon in the south. Someone could have carried the horn north at one point before the wall was built (which I believe is when giants were more common).

[Steelborn]

If there is any ugly beastie lurking around the Iron Islands, it's a Kraken.

Or a dragon sea like Nagga!

[Faceless Man Friday]

Since this is a song of ice and fire and dragons are fire made flesh it would seem that their counterpart should be a dragon of ice made flesh, an ice dragon. I think if an ice dragon exists it would be a nice addition to the story.

[Ygritte]

Not crazy at all, that's what I'm thinking as well. Especially given how often Jon mentions the ice dragon and Old Nan's tales. So far all of Old Nan's tales seem to prove true so why not this one?

And with how many times we get told that the western part of it is a "snake" while the eastern part is a sword.

[GERM]

Can someone remind me how many times exaclty has Old Nan or Jon mentionned an Ice Dragon ?

Old Nan has never been heard actually say it.

"The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy"

-ADWD Chapter 35

"The wind was blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to tell.^"

^{-ADWD Chapter 49}

^{"The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent."}

^{-ADWD Chapter 39}

^{Despite what has been communicated in the thread, there haven't been references or allusions throughout the series, but I think GRRM sent a clear message in these last few chapters of ADWD. If you combine that with the knowledge we were given about how you bind dragons to a horn (or at least Dragonbinder), it can be supposed by someone that they're all connected and Martin has either revealed an old plan or a newly devised one. If you include the fact that all of this came to us in the last 15% of ADWD, the case grows even stronger.}

^{What do we know?}

^{"I am Dragonbinder, No Mortal man should sound me and live, Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood"}

^{Moqorro says that if anyone can sound the horn, but any dragon that hears will obey the horn's master. He further explains that Victarion must become the horn's master by claiming it with blood.}

^{We know that there is talk of a Horn that will bring down the wall.}

^{We know that the wall was built with powerful magic.}

^{We have seen that most magic in GRRM's world revolved around dragons (or at least their presence in the world).}

^{Now, I hadn't given this subject much thought (none actually) before reading this topic. However, if a dragon was bound to, and inside of, the Wall in order to bolster its magical defense, it can be said that someone who sounds a dragon horn (maybe the only horn with specific glyphs tailored to an Ice Dragon) they have claim too within earshot of the dragon inside the wall, that it would bring the dragon forth and essentially bring the wall down.}

^{Just a thought.}

[Arkash]

Thanks for your work getting all these mentions !

The fact that all of them come from Dance can be taken as a sign that GRRM decided (lately) to include it down the line... or maybe I'm reading too much in this !

[Steelborn]

When I read TP&TQ I noted that the Dragon Sheepstealer and her rider (can't remember the girl's name) flew away from the Riverlands after being warned by Prince Daeron of approaching treachery. Sheepstealer was never seen again, if I recall correctly. Given the known long life of Dragons it is entirely possible that Sheepstealer is still alive somewhere. If it had returned to Dragonstone or was anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms its presence would have been noticed. North of the wall? It's possible, but nothing has been mentioned in the books that would even hint at a Dragon lurking up there, unless of course you include the possibility of the stories of 'firewyrms' at Hardhome.

My crackpot is that Nettles and Sheepstealer went to Asshai and that would confirm Bran's vision early on aGoT.

And isn't it strange that the Ice Dragon is mentioned heavily only on Jon's chapters? I think there's more about this.

Edit: paragraph.

[GERM]

Thanks for your work getting all these mentions !

The fact that all of them come from Dance can be taken as a sign that GRRM decided (lately) to include it down the line... or maybe I'm reading too much in this !

I wouldn't consider that reading into it too much at all. In my post I specifically said that we can either assume Martin has finally revealed hints to an old plan or a newly devised one.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he brings the wall down in this fashion.

[GERM]

My crackpot is that Nettles and Sheepstealer went to Asshai and that would confirm Bran's vision early on aGoT.

And isn't it strange that the Ice Dragon is mentioned heavily only on Jon's chapters? I think there's more about this.

Edit: paragraph.

I would agree.

[Arya Targaryen]

Other Ice Dragon references:

Bran:
“Osha,” Bran asked as they crossed the yard. “Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?”
“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye.”

When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon’s eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once...

Jon: (ASOS)

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. (Discussing stars with Ygritte)

Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. (Escaping from the wildlings)

Sam (ASOS) (Heading back to the Wall with Gilly)

By day he took directions from the sun, and on clear nights they could follow the Ice Dragon’s tail, though they hadn’t traveled much by night since the second horse had died.

Davos: (When they learn Joff is dead)

The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers’ stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

So far these are all references to the stars. but this one is not:

Jon (ASOS) when he goes down to check the gate and finds Noye and Mag dead:

The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. it felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon.

No mention in AFFC.

And there are the 3 mentions of ice dragon in Jon chapters in ADWD. That's all.

I subscribe to the theory that there is an ice dragon within the Wall, resulting in the agic and teh extreme cold. Maybe the Wall comes down because of Jon's blood sacrifice (he was practically sacrificed for the well-being of the Watch), and an ice dragon will be released. I don't really believe in it but it definitely would make some sense. (a king's blood to wake a dragon...)

[Arkash]

I must say, the research function must be the only advantage of numeric books and kindle ! ^^

[GERM]

Other Ice Dragon references:

Bran:

“Osha,” Bran asked as they crossed the yard. “Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?”

“The way’s easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider’s eye.”

When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon’s eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once...

Jon: (ASOS)

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. (Discussing stars with Ygritte)

Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. (Escaping from the wildlings)

Sam (ASOS) (Heading back to the Wall with Gilly)

By day he took directions from the sun, and on clear nights they could follow the Ice Dragon’s tail, though they hadn’t traveled much by night since the second horse had died.

Davos: (When they learn Joff is dead)

The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers’ stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

So far these are all references to the stars. but this one is not:

Jon (ASOS) when he goes down to check the gate and finds Noye and Mag dead:

The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. it felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon.

No mention in AFFC.

And there are the 3 mentions of ice dragon in Jon chapters in ADWD. That's all.

I subscribe to the theory that there is an ice dragon within the Wall, resulting in the agic and teh extreme cold. Maybe the Wall comes down because of Jon's blood sacrifice (he was practically sacrificed for the well-being of the Watch), and an ice dragon will be released. I don't really believe in it but it definitely would make some sense. (a king's blood to wake a dragon...)

I never really considered the constellation references as foreshadowing, but I can see it now given the last few Chapters in ADWD.

I missed your last reference though.