JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 The theory of BR warging Patchface is quite interesting. Patchface is also a simpleton like Hodor, and I guess that makes them both easy to control. And I guess that BR would know better than Bran how to warg a man without being too much, let's use the word, "rough", and won't affect Patchface like it does affect Hodor. If the theory is trueWhat does Bloodraven want with Bran and Shireen? Well, in many terror movies, children are approached by spirits and such because they're more open to believe and see things adults rather would ignore or simply won't believe. Bran has blood of the First Men in the same way Shireen has some Targaryen blood, and she is also dreaming of dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Patchface creeps me out big time, and I've posted on him before in this forum. Mel's vision is that she sees him with bloody lips and red skulls all around him. There's also this quote: “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.” It's generally accepted that the sea in Patchface's ramblings means death. This quote could therefore show that Patchface will lead men to their deaths (and potentially out the other side if they rise again as wights?). If this happens around the time when Horns are blown (either Dragonbinder and Joramun) then the prophesy would have an extra layer of truth. My hunch right now is that Patchface will kiss Shireen on her Greyscale cheek (her Mother is always careful to kiss the other one) and then he will bite someone (hence the red lips) which will start a Grey Plague along the wall, killing many people. This would have Patchface leading men to their death and explain why seemed to be surrounded by skulls. This would tie into two other stories. The first is Val's terror of Shireen's disease. The second is that Jon Snow dreams he will wake and find the wall empty. This would be the case if the epidemic spreads while Jon is dead but living in Ghost. When he rises again he is in Castle Black but everyone has gone. Lastly, I think Patchface is not a good thing for Shireen. The Sea Gods and the Storm Gods are meant to be locked into eternal conflict. Patchface is a prophet of the sea. Shireen is the heir to Storm's End. Not a happy combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm not convinced that Patchface has anything to do with the drowned god. I think it's possible that his powers come from the old gods - he had a traumatic experience, just like Bran and woke up with prophetic powers. Of course we don't know if he has any blood of the first men in him, but he used to be a slave so you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm not convinced that Patchface has anything to do with the drowned god. I think it's possible that his powers come from the old gods - he had a traumatic experience, just like Bran and woke up with prophetic powers. Of course we don't know if he has any blood of the first men in him, but he used to be a slave so you never know. It's certainly possible. But Bran's visions do all seem to be connected to the old gods (through Weirwoods) whereas Patchface's visions are all connected with the drowned god (through water references). So the traumatic experience seems to have awakened something in them but it's of a different hue. Another thought ... "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." Perhaps Patchface will be immune to the Grey Plague? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 It's certainly possible. But Bran's visions do all seem to be connected to the old gods (through Weirwoods) whereas Patchface's visions are all connected with the drowned god (through water references). So the traumatic experience seems to have awakened something in them but it's of a different hue. Another thought ... That's true actually, I didn't think about the water references. Maybe it's a clue that all the religions basically amount to the same thing. If Patchface's powers do come from the drowned god, that would mean all 3 religions are capable of giving people prophetic powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 That's true actually, I didn't think about the water references. Maybe it's a clue that all the religions basically amount to the same thing. If Patchface's powers do come from the drowned god, that would mean all 3 religions are capable of giving people prophetic powers. I really think this is the case. One of the things I like about ASOIAF is that there are these amazingly varied Kingdoms and Families and Religions, yet there are things which make all of them very similar too. Both the Fire religions and the 'Old Gods' religions really have a lot of their belief systems built around ideas of sacrifice. It wouldn't surprise me if they all have Prophets too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biter the Gallant Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Concerning Melisandre's visions about him, I do not think these mean that Patchface really is "evil",but rather that he belongs to another type of magic/futuretelling power/god than that of r'hllorist fire magic, which is uncontrollable by Melisandre, so he appears to be a threat and a symbolic "enemy" in her visions. (Perhaps the same way as she interprets Bloodraven and Bran whom belong to the Old Gods magic territory also automatically as enemies and so necessarily as servants of the Great Other.) Anyways I am sure that Mel is totally misreading her Patchface-visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 She does misread alot Patchface is more correct than her. Patchface hasn't harm Shireen yet and he might be under order to protect her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Melissandre usually sees things correctly but misinterprets them. For example, she will ask to be shown Azor Ahai, she gets shown Jon Snow, but she doesn't put the two together to think Jon might be Azor. Her visions are spot on. Her understanding is flawed. This is what she says about Patchface: Melisandre’s face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood." I don't doubt that Patchface could easily be a positive force who saves Shireen. But if so, I think it's likely that he will do it in a way where he will be surrounded by skulls (or symbolic death) and where he will be blood-stained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 The skulls could be all off Mel's followers and Melreal Arya could have a hand to helping off Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm not convinced that Patchface has anything to do with the drowned god. I think it's possible that his powers come from the old gods - he had a traumatic experience, just like Bran and woke up with prophetic powers. Of course we don't know if he has any blood of the first men in him, but he used to be a slave so you never know. I agree other than being drowned which doesn't really prove anything we have no reason to believe Patchface is somehow connected to the Drowned God. He may be but there just isn't enough evidence in the text to tell us for sure. He knows something but what and how he found out there is just no way to know at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osha13 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 He is at least in the story to give clues of certain events to come. But I think he could play a surprise role at some point that we really don't expect. Like he saves Shireens life or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indemnity Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Patchface creeps me the fuck out.I bet he murders people in their sleep when nobody watches. I also bet he is actually less 'retarded' than he likes to show. Mellisandre has some vision about him where his mouth is bloody or something. I think he'll kill one of the imporant characters. He's like a sleeper agent who doesnt know he's a sleeper agent. He's been send to kill a certain someone he hasn't yet met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night'sQueen Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Patchface scares the bejeezus out of me. But, I think he's going to save Shireen from some terrible calamity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 He is at least in the story to give clues of certain events to come. But I think he could play a surprise role at some point that we really don't expect. Like he saves Shireens life or something. With Mel seeing skulls and blood in connection to him in the flames I always kind of thought he was going to kill Shireen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osha13 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 With Mel seeing skulls and blood in connection to him in the flames I always kind of thought he was going to kill Shireen.Maybe. I don't really know what his deal is. He has been around Stannis' family since Stannis' father died though which is a decent amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Maybe. I don't really know what his deal is. He has been around Stannis' family since Stannis' father died though which is a decent amount of time. Like I said its just my opinion. I mean the guy was technically dead, I don't remember precisely how long but I remember that it was longer than you can be clinically dead in the real world and still be revived. Maybe she is unaware of that and the skulls and blood she sees merely represent the fact that he once died. Without the information we have as readers she might just be misinterpreting them to mean something sinister. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Pretty close to my greatest fear is the idea that Patches words are significant, meaning I may have to actually pay attention to them. Being locked in a room with he and Aeron would inspire me to invent gunpowder just so I could blow my brains out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Pretty close to my greatest fear is the idea that Patches words are significant, meaning I may have to actually pay attention to them.Being locked in a room with he and Aeron would inspire me to invent gunpowder just so I could blow my brains out. I'm not saying they are but he did predict the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'm not saying they are but he did predict the Red Wedding.Yeah, I know. To be clear, I am not saying his words are meaningless. I just really really really really really really hope they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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