Khal Jhaqo will be dragon food… what a nonsense!

[Fire Eater]

i this image will give an clear image of how it happened

Was that GRRM approved?

and if she was on her way to stand beside dragon like you say when jhaqo found wouldnt her back turned against him...i wonder how she knows that was jhaqo

She saw it was Jhaqo who came drifting form the smoke.

I doubt Drogon's habit of always returning to his cave come nightfall was just a random tidbit.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Was that GRRM approved?

She saw it was Jhaqo who came drifting form the smoke.

I doubt Drogon's habit of always returning to his cave come nightfall was just a random tidbit.

oh my god you are unbelievable

[Light a wight tonight]

A khal's widow is supposed to be sent to VD to be one of the dosh khaleen.

You really oughtn't use the initials VD. Has a completely different common meaning.

[Fire Eater]

oh my god you are unbelievable

Questioning if that picture is accurate? That wasn't made by GRRM himself, but independently by a fan. A valid question as there are plenty of fan made drawings that are inaccurate. GRRM does give blessings to and comments on certain depictions and drawings.

You really oughtn't use the initials VD. Has a completely different common meaning.

:laugh:

[jon rhaegar stark]

Questioning if that picture is accurate? That wasn't made by GRRM himself, but independently by a fan. A valid question as there are plenty of fan made drawings that are inaccurate. GRRM does give blessings to and comments on certain depictions and drawings.

:laugh:

no not about the picture ..it is just taken from the Wiki and i dont know GRRm approved that or not ...why they draw liked that they could have drawn she was in a distance and on her way to stand beside drogon

but i said you are unbelievable because it seems clear everyone is in disagrrement with you ....but you still stand on your point i respect it for how you are not backing down ...but dont you think its time to stand down and accept that you are defeated

[Fire Eater]

but i said you are unbelievable because it seems clear everyone is in disagrrement with you ....but you still stand on your point i respect it for how you are not backing down ...but dont you think its time to stand down and accept that you are defeated

Except I haven't been defeated. Not everyone disagrees with me, the posters I have talked with don't make up a majority of this forum, and I know a few posters who might vouch for me. There isn't any textual evidence for Dany choosing to go to VD, and going there out of her own free will. TWoW hasn't come out yet to verify our claims.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Except I haven't been defeated. Not everyone disagrees with me, the posters I have talked with don't make up a majority of this forum, and I know a few posters who might vouch for me. There isn't any textual evidence for Dany choosing to go to VD, and going there out of her own free will. TWoW hasn't come out yet to verify our claims.

oh iam sure there are people who believe in your view but i wonder where they are..its been nearly a week since this topic is started

we never have textual evidence danny choosing to go to Vaes Dothrak ...but we have evidence that she is the one who wanted to follow the scout and you were disagreeing with it from the start ..

[Pib_Juju]

Eh, in this instance I think the narrative is more of a guide than the specifics of the text. Sure, I assume 50 Dothraki would be a lot more lethal than a pit worker with a spear. But what sense does it make, from a narrative perspective, to waste this moment on Daenerys being captured and Drogon fleeing?

She's just had a kind of turning point. She finds herself back where she was in the beginning of the story in a way; an outsider surrounded by Dothraki-- and one of the same Dothraki she previously swore to take revenge upon.

I expect Jhaqo is about to bite it.

[Fire Eater]

we never have textual evidence danny choosing to go to Vaes Dothrak ...but we have evidence that she is the one who wanted to follow the scout and you were disagreeing with it from the start ..

I didn't disagree that she didn't want to follow the scout, but that she made a split-second decision without any forethought to take a khalasar using only a half-trained dragon.

[frensj]

She saw it was Jhaqo who came drifting form the smoke.

I doubt Drogon's habit of always returning to his cave come nightfall was just a random tidbit.

You THINK this, while it is nowhere mentioned. Of course the dragon goes home/to his bed every night, don't you? Does this mean that you would abandon your companion/master to go to sleep when a small army comes out of the mist while you are eating?

"Oh, it's bedtime, got to go Dany, you just finish the horse I just killed and started eating, ok? Oh, there's scary people? Watevs, I'm tired"

Does that sound realistic to you? Then there's no point in discussing this point further with you I guess :)

You seem to keep making up things that are not even close to what we do know from the text, you keep saying how Drogon would react in situation x or y based on, what? What Drogon was possibly thinking before Dany started "training" him? Sometimes I really lose you, where you get the things from that you type here. People come here with quotes disproving things you say but you ignore them, because what you somehow deducted from the text is what has to be, not what most everyone else here is reading.

Why on earth would it not have been mentioned if Drogon took flight to return to his cave? Either Dany would notice, or GRRM would have just told us in the narrative.

[Mithras]

You THINK this, while it is nowhere mentioned. Of course the dragon goes home/to his bed every night, don't you? Does this mean that you would abandon your companion/master to go to sleep when a small army comes out of the mist while you are eating?

"Oh, it's bedtime, got to go Dany, you just finish the horse I just killed and started eating, ok? Oh, there's scary people? Watevs, I'm tired"

Does that sound realistic to you? Then there's no point in discussing this point further with you I guess :)

You seem to keep making up things that are not even close to what we do know from the text, you keep saying how Drogon would react in situation x or y based on, what? What Drogon was possibly thinking before Dany started "training" him? Sometimes I really lose you, where you get the things from that you type here. People come here with quotes disproving things you say but you ignore them, because what you somehow deducted from the text is what has to be, not what most everyone else here is reading.

Why on earth would it not have been mentioned if Drogon took flight to return to his cave? Either Dany would notice, or GRRM would have just told us in the narrative.

Drogon left Dany in the Dothraki Sea for a night although he flew over her three times during that day. He didnot stop by and take her to the lair.

[horizon]

Why should he?

He flew over to check on her.

He landed when needed.

;)

Just like Gandalf says:

a wizard is never late, he is always on time.

[Mithras]

Why should he?

He flew over to check on her.

He landed when needed.

;)

Just like Gandalf says:

a wizard is never late, he is always on time.

The wolf Dany heard might have easily come and eat her. Same goes for other hunters like hrakkars. Would he arrive at the right time to kill those hunters too?

[frensj]

Drogon left Dany in the Dothraki Sea for a night although he flew over her three times during that day. He didnot stop by and take her to the lair.

What does that have to do with what I just typed? I'm responding to Fire Eater who says Drogon left her when the Dothraki came.

Dragons also have needs yes, so he goes hunting. As Dragon Eater likes to point out, they are probably not fully bonded/trained. But I think it's a huge difference in flying away when there's possible danger or just leaving her be during the day. If she would be in need and would call Drogon, I believe he would come asap by now, the bond seems to be that strong already. Anyway that we witnessed.

Might be he comes too late yes if some predator strikes fast. That's life... In tpatq or trp (forgot which one) iirc there is at least one dragon rider that dies while the dragon is somewhere else, the dragon is then heard screaming or so(?). They can't be watching each other 24/7, and in those times they are apart, much can happen obviously. But in the scene we are in, they ARE together, so that's quite different to start with.

[jet199]

I think being lost in the middle of nowhere, dressed pretty much in rags, sick and shitting all over the place and most likely having a miscarriage on top of that is about as low as you can get. But that is just me.

Sounds like an average Friday night where I'm from.

[frensj]

Sounds like an average Friday night where I'm from.

Hmm the UK, home of teen pregnancies and binge drinking. Probably you are right :P

But keep in mind that she's in the middle of nowhere, and also she didn't have that nice and greasy kebab since some time ;)

[Mithras]

What does that have to do with what I just typed? I'm responding to Fire Eater who says Drogon left her when the Dothraki came.

Dragons also have needs yes, so he goes hunting. As Dragon Eater likes to point out, they are probably not fully bonded/trained. But I think it's a huge difference in flying away when there's possible danger or just leaving her be during the day. If she would be in need and would call Drogon, I believe he would come asap by now, the bond seems to be that strong already. Anyway that we witnessed.

Might be he comes too late yes if some predator strikes fast. That's life... In tpatq or trp (forgot which one) iirc there is at least one dragon rider that dies while the dragon is somewhere else, the dragon is then heard screaming or so(?). They can't be watching each other 24/7, and in those times they are apart, much can happen obviously. But in the scene we are in, they ARE together, so that's quite different to start with.

It means Dany’s well-being is not necessarily the priority of Drogon. His time to go home has come and if he finds himself in a fight that he cannot win (or win with heavy casualties) he would better run.

Hunters never risk a serious injury because an injured hunter is doomed to fail in hunts and die from starvation.

I already gave upthread that Drogon’s wings were damaged by arrows and bolts in the pit. If he gets so injured that he could not fly for a long time, he dies from starvation. Hunters do not behave like this. A cheetah or a single lion leaves the game and runs from a pack of hyenas.

There is always the danger of dying. In fact, can you give me a reasonable explanation that how Drogon can save Dany if Jhaqo wants to kill her? I think Drogon himself might slay Dany if she stays too close in the heat of an attack.

Dany wears no armor and 50 Dothraki have a high chance of killing her with an arrow regardless of what Drogon does. Drogon cannot kill them all instantly before they can shoot arrows to Dany.

[DragonDreamer]

1. There is an implication describing that was how Jhaqo found her. She was going to Drogon, and Jhaqo found her on her way.

The implication is the Jhoqo found her standing next to Drogon, that is an educated deduction we can make from what it stated in the text. I have already pointed out that Dany was eating a horse with Drogon, they could not have been but a few feet away from each other, it would not have taken her more than ten seconds to stand next to him.

No offense, but you are being arrogant and condescending in your tone, IMO. I advise you be respectful when talking with other posters, and not assume you know more than the poster you're debating. Unless you have a copy of TWoW in front of you, how do you know for a certainty am I wrong?

Actually, I am offended. I simply asked that if you are going to argue your theory you own up to the fact that you cannot provide textual evidence to back it up.

I don't need your advise, so I ask that you keep it to yourself, I didn't ask you for it. Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use this "moral high-ground" to try and distract from the fact that you have yet to provide textual evidence to support your claims.

To quote Socrates: I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know.

Now who's being arrogant and condescending. Nice try, trying to get atop that high horse.

Interjecting opinions and desires? Isn't that what everyone else has being in this thread as well? This is a debate. There is nothing explicitly in the text pointing to Dany being with Drogon at the time Jhaqo finds her, or her deciding to go to VD.

Please don't compare what I and others posters are saying to what you are saying. We have backed up what we are saying with textual evidence while you have not. It is not the same thing.

GRRM did not have to explicitly state that Dany was standing next to Drogon for any reasonable person to make an educated deduction that that is what indeed is happening.

The claims you are making do not follow what we have read so far.

The pattern I spoke of does describe GRRM's writing style, in his own words things need to get worse before they get better. I just gave you a bunch of textual examples to prove my point.

This would be true if you completely ignore everything proceeding Dany's encounter with Jhoqo. What GRRM did in Dany's last chapter was a Vision Quest, which is described as such:

"Especially prevalent in The Nineties, this is when a character goes on a spiritual journey of self-discovery. The character is forced to confront his subconscious or seek guidance from his Spirit Advisors in the form of some kind of pseudo-Dream Sequence, possibly Adventures in Comaland. At times it is debatable whether the events actually take place or not. While on this journey the character may meet animal guides, dead people, ancestors, shamans, be forced to engage in some type of physical or mental trial, and will most likely experience a moment of revelation about him or herself which leads to making an important life decision.

The name is taken from the "vision quest" sacrament practiced by many Native American peoples. The best known is probably the Lakotah hanbleceya which is described in Black Elk Speaks."

Dany has already gone through her worst (lost, hungry, afraid, sick, miscarried) and she's had her moment of enlightenment, she's not going down that dark path again. It would be redundant to the story.

Again, the tone, and disparaging someone's else theory as "fan fiction" in way that doesn't fit the definition is disrespectful. Calling an argument names doesn't prove you're right, but that you've descended to a form of arguing we used when we were children. When we didn't like something or an idea, we just called it names. Fan fiction is a separate work knowingly outside canon while I am discussing a theory in canon. If you don't show respect towards other posters you debate, don't expect any.

It is fan fiction when you make things up. If you don't want your theory to be called fan fiction then provide textual evidence to support it.

And by the way fan fiction can take place within the perimeters of already established canon.

The air was thick with smoke where Drogon was, and Dany was a distance away to escape the smoke. Otherwise, she wouldn't have gone to stand beside him as she already was standing beside him.

Now, I can't prove this but my educated guess is that she went to stand next two him for two reasons:

A ) To make a show of force.

B ) And/or so she could easily leap onto his back and fly away if things got hairy.

I can't prove this and I admit that, but I believe they are reasonable conclusions based on the text and on human behavior.

It is written "when half a hundred warriors emerged from the drifting smoke." Jhaqo and his warriors emerged from the smoke at the site of Drogon's kill, and if Drogon was there she would have seen and heard dragonflame, the screams of dragon, men and horses. I think Drogon had left, and Jhaqo was investigating the sight.

We need to address two things here. You say that Dany could not see Drogon. This is nowhere stated in the text nor is it ever implied. They were eating a horse together, close to each other. Please explain and provide text showing that it is possible for someone not to feel the 20ft wingspan of a flying lizard if they take flight right next to you.

Secondly, why would Drogon act violently against the Dothraki when Dany was so calm? We know for a FACT that Drogon's behavior in times like these closely resembles Dany's behavior. We saw it in Astapor.

Dany calmly got up, took the time to wash her hands, and walk to Drogon. These are not the action of a woman who is afraid but someone who knows what she is doing.

[frensj]

It means Dany’s well-being is not necessarily the priority of Drogon. His time to go home has come and if he finds himself in a fight that he cannot win (or win with heavy casualties) he would better run.

Hunters never risk a serious injury because an injured hunter is doomed to fail in hunts and die from starvation.

I already gave upthread that Drogon’s wings were damaged by arrows and bolts in the pit. If he gets so injured that he could not fly for a long time, he dies from starvation. Hunters do not behave like this. A cheetah or a single lion leaves the game and runs from a pack of hyenas.

There is always the danger of dying. In fact, can you give me a reasonable explanation that how Drogon can save Dany if Jhaqo wants to kill her? I think Drogon himself might slay Dany if she stays too close in the heat of an attack.

Dany wears no armor and 50 Dothraki have a high chance of killing her with an arrow regardless of what Drogon does. Drogon cannot kill them all instantly before they can shoot arrows to Dany.

I agree with you that real life predators always avoid a fight, a broken leg or small infection will very likely be the end of them. But it IS mentioned that a dragons first instinct is to fight.

There is no realistic explanation, if they want Dany dead and don't have the super villain complex (speech first, then shoot) she's dead, no question about that. But I don't think that's what they want. It would be very bad for the story anyway :P

[RoamingRonin]

I already gave upthread that Drogon’s wings were damaged by arrows and bolts in the pit. If he gets so injured that he could not fly for a long time, he dies from starvation. Hunters do not behave like this. A cheetah or a single lion leaves the game and runs from a pack of hyenas.

Syrax seeks the fight in the dragon pit even though she could have flown away to safety. It's incredibly pointless to compare the dragons to real world animals.

There is always the danger of dying. In fact, can you give me a reasonable explanation that how Drogon can save Dany if Jhaqo wants to kill her? I think Drogon himself might slay Dany if she stays too close in the heat of an attack.

Dude, who knows? There's a point when speculation becomes fan fiction and this is right on the line. Jhaqo has the drop on Dany, sure. If all 50 riders shot arrows at her, she'd die.