Khal Jhaqo will be dragon food… what a nonsense!

[Natasi]

This has devolved into another thread where people who don't like or think very highly of Dany want to discredit her. There's no reason to argue whether Dany is bonded to Drogon and how much control she has over him. It would have been simpler writing to never have Dany mount Drogon if GRRM was trying to show that she isn't meant as his dragon rider. But she did mount him. Arguing that it's not going to go any further than that is suggesting that those chapters were just a waste of time for her character development.

Whether you think she controls him or not, whether you think she rode him just the one time or multiple times, the story is heading towards her continuing to mount Drogon and the progression of their bond together. If it wasn't, those chapters wouldn't have happened. She never would have ridden him. She did, though. She will continue to do so, and any arguments to the contrary are "fanwishes" that Dany has no claim to fame as a dragonrider in this series and an attempt to minimize her importance as a character.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Exactly my point.

Now, about the following the river point.

I'm using this map: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/clayseason/game%20of%20thrones/locations/essos.jpg

She's in/on/around a mountain with Drogon. People here believe (it's too long ago I read it myself, don't have the book here) seem to believe that the North-East drection she lets Drogon fly is to VD. This lets me think that she is in the mountainrange west of Meereen. There a random river might go to Bhonash I would say, and not Meereen.

If she would be in the mountains east of Meereen, then VD would be exactly north.

Yes that seems correct. If she is following the river, and has to climb down hills, then she is definitely near that mountain range, which would put VD directly north of her. So when she meets up with Jhago she is headed in the general direction of VD. Which is where Jhago is probably coming from. Her last flight does not seem to be a very long one before Drogon lands on the horse.

[Fire Eater]

What are you, a dragon yourself? Do you know how birds hunt? They go high up until they spot something and then go after it. This is by no means always the same place.

A bit of ad hominem, and that is not an argument, because by that same logic, you are not a dragon yourself either, so you can't claim anymore than I can. I loved to read about animals when I was a kid, and I read about dragons' habits in the series. Dragons are not birds, and as Paper Weaver, dragons can have preferred hunting grounds.

I can not see another successful way for a dragon to hunt. He comes out of his cave, circles up until he sees a horse (or whatever) somewhere and goes after it, this can be anywhere around the mountain.

Furthermore, if I'm a horse in a group and a dragon comes after us, I survive, I'm not coming there again for some time, no doubt about that.

Except the Dothraki Sea is going dry, and prey is likely becoming more scarce. Dany herself noticed that Drogon had hunted there several times, so it was a habit. Drogon seldom leaves the cave except to hunt. That was why he left, and the first thing he did after Dany mounted him was go after the horse herd, and

As from the horses, these aren't wild horses, but domesticated horses, and the Dothraki have them graze where they want. Besides, many animals graze in areas occupied by predators given the history of predators living side by side with prey. Horses don't have a human level of intelligence either.

I know it's very difficult to give in after defending yourself for so long for a certain topic, but come on, you are absolutely being ridiculous here about her multiple flights. She never states "today is the 34th time I ride him" no, but from everything posted here, anyone can see that she rode him multiple times.

Again, ad hominem, calling someone "ridiculous," doesn't help prove you're right, but that you've reverted to a form of arguing we used when we were children. There is nothing explicitly saying Dany had ridden him more than once after that point.

Anyway, We dont all have to agree, but several of us know for a fact that she rode Drogon many times (given the massive textual evidence), tightening their bond and becoming a better dragon rider all the time. Sorry Fire Eater, but I'm not going to stop the conversation.

So the last time she flies him something different happens. Her and Drogon are finally of one mind. He knows where she needs to go and he has been trying to show her. Dany instincitvely knows it too;

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

There is nothing explicitly pointing towards Dany riding Drogon multiple times, IMO. I am partial to that, and you say you know when you only think you know. I think Drogon was only ridden twice by Dany. I am this close to providing a quote by Socrates which inspired "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

That quote mentions nothing about dragon riding.

All the thoughts and conversations she has with herself are telling her the same thing, trust the dragons, go with dragons, surrender a life you dont want and start the life you were born for, embrace fire and blood (hopefully in a good way).

Agreed, except for the last part. Embracing fire and blood, listening to Viserys, is not a good thing, and I think we may see a bit of a darker Dany.

Which is why that last flight is so important, she has no whip, hardly any clothes, only her arms/legs and mind to steer Drogon with, and he takes her to get food and straight to the dothraki, which is where she also wants to go. She was dothraki when she first hatched the eggs, when she first heard Drogons song, when she was truly happy. And Drogon knows all that, so he is leading her back. "To go forward I must go back."

I think Drogon plans to lead her back to fulfill her destiny, but that she was on him when he was returning to his cave, and he was on regular hunting route when he bumps into her again, he seldom leaves the cave except to hunt.

They have been at odds when she was flying on him before, she was trying to steer him and was unsuccessful, she was trying to steer him towards Meereen. He knew she did not need to go there. Actually it is starting to be obvious that the dragons are pretty smart, at least Drogon and Viserion at least are showing many signs of understanding and insight. She just needed to give into them.

GRRM did say that dragons have the intelligence of dogs. She doesn't need to give into them as dragons as that is symbolically giving in to the id. She should master the dragon instead of the dragon mastering her.

ALso I wanted to point out, that before he comes to pick her up, she is basically delirious, bleeding, dehydrating, can barely walk, but the second she gets on his back, she becomes lucid again. I doubt it is any easy task riding on him with no saddle or anything after days of no food and water. But she immediately gets stronger when she is on dragonback.

I never said anything about there being no bond. She seems to have been healing beforehand.

Yes that seems correct. If she is following the river, and has to climb down hills, then she is definitely near that mountain range, which would put VD directly north of her. So when she meets up with Jhago she is headed in the general direction of VD. Which is where Jhago is probably coming from. Her last flight does not seem to be a very long one before Drogon lands on the horse.

Or Jhaqo could have been the khal mentioned coming to Meereen summoned by the Yunkai'i.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This has devolved into another thread where people who don't like or think very highly of Dany want to discredit her. There's no reason to argue whether Dany is bonded to Drogon and how much control she has over him. It would have been simpler writing to never have Dany mount Drogon if GRRM was trying to show that she isn't meant as his dragon rider. But she did mount him. Arguing that it's not going to go any further than that is suggesting that those chapters were just a waste of time for her character development.

Whether you think she controls him or not, whether you think she rode him just the one time or multiple times, the story is heading towards her continuing to mount Drogon and the progression of their bond together. If it wasn't, those chapters wouldn't have happened. She never would have ridden him. She did, though. She will continue to do so, and any arguments to the contrary are "fanwishes" that Dany has no claim to fame as a dragonrider in this series and an attempt to minimize her importance as a character.

Yes I know. The discrediting of Dany is a favorite past time on this forum. What can you do?

I agree her bond with Drogon will be crucial to the story line (that's what this entire last chapter was about), but IMO, it is important that she has flown many times, (as the book clearly states) because it shows that she is ready and has put in enough 'training' flight hours, now she is very good at it. He flies many times each day seems like, sometimes with her and sometimes without her. On the day she starts walking;

"Thrice that day she caught sight of Drogon. Once he was so far off that he might have been an eagle, slipping in and out of distant clouds, but Dany knew the look of him by now, even when he was no more than a speck." So we know that he is flying a lot, and all over the place with and without her, and that is just one day that she saw him flying 3 times and she could have already been there for a week or 2 (maybe more ), but when she gets on him, he goes exactly where she wants. Proving she has mastered him.

Because by the end of DwD she is a dragon lord. She can control him without a saddle or whip, she can summon him when she needs. He is a helpful boy who is watching out for her. When he flies over her and she thinks for a minute he is hunting her, I am sure he is just watching out for her and checking to see where she is.

So her time on Dragonstone was meant to be her time bonding with him and learning how to ride and steer him. Now she knows and going forward into WoW she wont have to continue working on flying him, she has now mastered that. and she can already make him breathe fire on command with dracarys. So really she is fully equipped now, death from above and so on. I am really excited about it :)

[Carl Rhaego]

I just reread the last 3 pages of the chapter and the horses and riders were scared shitless of the dragon. Dany and Drogon were basically hunting them and Drogon could smell the rider's fear. Dany calls Drogon, mounts him and immediatedly steers him in the direction of the rider. They chase the horses and riders for a while before catching up with them. Drogon kills a horse and Dany and him have a primal moment together eating half raw horse together in the wilderness. It's basically Dany's first kill as a dragon rider. That is shortly after Dany had her "Fire and Blood!" epiphany. They weren't found by the khalasaar, they went after it.

So I'd say that, from reading the chapter and the tone it sets, there's some fried Dothraki on the menu.

[Nictarion]

This thread has gone completely off the rails. People are arguing how each other aren't dragons ffs lol. It seems it's just arguing for the sake of arguing, and the refusal to admit when wrong. There has been countless posts proving Daenerys has rode Drogon several times, why is this such a big deal?

[Fire Eater]

This thread has gone completely off the rails. People are arguing how each other aren't dragons ffs lol. It seems it's just arguing for the sake of arguing, and the refusal to admit when wrong. There has been countless posts proving Daenerys has rode Drogon several times, why is this such a big deal?

I think that statement comes off as a little self-righteous, no offense, in saying someone is wrong just because their argument goes against what you believe to be true.

I agree her bond with Drogon will be crucial to the story line (that's what this entire last chapter was about), but IMO, it is important that she has flown many times, (as the book clearly states) because it shows that she is ready and has put in enough 'training' flight hours, now she is very good at it. He flies many times each day seems like, sometimes with her and sometimes without her. On the day she starts walking;

I don't know if she has flown many times, but I will give you the benefit of a doubt that it could be a possibility. I am starting to think she could have ridden him when he went out hunting a couple times.

This has devolved into another thread where people who don't like or think very highly of Dany want to discredit her. There's no reason to argue whether Dany is bonded to Drogon and how much control she has over him. It would have been simpler writing to never have Dany mount Drogon if GRRM was trying to show that she isn't meant as his dragon rider. But she did mount him. Arguing that it's not going to go any further than that is suggesting that those chapters were just a waste of time for her character development.

Whether you think she controls him or not, whether you think she rode him just the one time or multiple times, the story is heading towards her continuing to mount Drogon and the progression of their bond together. If it wasn't, those chapters wouldn't have happened. She never would have ridden him. She did, though. She will continue to do so, and any arguments to the contrary are "fanwishes" that Dany has no claim to fame as a dragonrider in this series and an attempt to minimize her importance as a character.

Yes I know. The discrediting of Dany is a favorite past time on this forum. What can you do?

Saying she didn't mount him several times is discrediting her? I think you have a strawman as I am not discrediting her. I never argued Dany didn't have a bond with Drogon, but the opposite. I never said it was going to go further either, I said that he she was going to help her in VD become the StMtW. Nor is any claim made against her not being a dragonrider. From the looks of it you have a collection of strawman arguments, no offense.

"Thrice that day she caught sight of Drogon. Once he was so far off that he might have been an eagle, slipping in and out of distant clouds, but Dany knew the look of him by now, even when he was no more than a speck." So we know that he is flying a lot, and all over the place with and without her, and that is just one day that she saw him flying 3 times and she could have already been there for a week or 2 (maybe more ), but when she gets on him, he goes exactly where she wants. Proving she has mastered him.

So her time on Dragonstone was meant to be her time bonding with him and learning how to ride and steer him. Now she knows and going forward into WoW she wont have to continue working on flying him, she has now mastered that. and she can already make him breathe fire on command with dracarys. So really she is fully equipped now, death from above and so on. I am really excited about it :)

She hasn't mastered him as he will still go where he wants plenty of the time, and he still won't let Dany take him back to Meereen. She is making progress, but Dany is still an amateur, and has a way to go before she completely masters Drogon just as Jon as way to go before he masters warging.

Because by the end of DwD she is a dragon lord. She can control him without a saddle or whip, she can summon him when she needs. He is a helpful boy who is watching out for her. When he flies over her and she thinks for a minute he is hunting her, I am sure he is just watching out for her and checking to see where she is.

Dragonlady :)

I think Drogon was hunting in that area, and Dany was moving towards the khalasar. Dany was following a stream leading towards a river, and it makes sense for nomads to stop near sources of water.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I never said anything about there being no bond. She seems to have been healing beforehand.

I don't know if she has flown many times, but I will give you the benefit of a doubt that it could be a possibility. I am starting to think she could have ridden him when he went out hunting a couple times.

Saying she didn't mount him several times is discrediting her? I think you have a strawman as I am not discrediting her. I never argued Dany didn't have a bond with Drogon, but the opposite. I never said it was going to go further either, I said that he she was going to help her in VD become the StMtW. Nor is any claim made against her not being a dragonrider. From the looks of it you have a collection of strawman arguments, no offense.

None of my last several comments were directed at you, or to you, or quoting you. Every one was a response to different posters (not you). So please stop responding to me as though I am calling you personally out, thanks.

[frensj]

A bit of ad hominem, and that is not an argument, because by that same logic, you are not a dragon yourself either, so you can't claim anymore than I can. I loved to read about animals when I was a kid, and I read about dragons' habits in the series. Dragons are not birds, and as Paper Weaver, dragons can have preferred hunting grounds.

Except the Dothraki Sea is going dry, and prey is likely becoming more scarce. Dany herself noticed that Drogon had hunted there several times, so it was a habit. Drogon seldom leaves the cave except to hunt. That was why he left, and the first thing he did after Dany mounted him was go after the horse herd, and

As from the horses, these aren't wild horses, but domesticated horses, and the Dothraki have them graze where they want. Besides, many animals graze in areas occupied by predators given the history of predators living side by side with prey. Horses don't have a human level of intelligence either.

Again, ad hominem, calling someone "ridiculous," doesn't help prove you're right, but that you've reverted to a form of arguing we used when we were children. There is nothing explicitly saying Dany had ridden him more than once after that point.

There is nothing explicitly pointing towards Dany riding Drogon multiple times, IMO. I am partial to that, and you say you know when you only think you know. I think Drogon was only ridden twice by Dany. I am this close to providing a quote by Socrates which inspired "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

I'm sorry for the stupid tone in my post, I was having some difficulties somewhere else :) (who or what is this "Paper Weaver", I don't really get that part)

I just wanted to say that you have no way of knowing this, it's nowhere written that he goes to the same spot, while it is written that he covers great distances (Dany seeing him 3 times on one day, every time losing eyesight).

I gave the horse as an example because we read that he catches one. He might as well kill a dear or whatnot. Also, there might very well still be non-domesticated horses, or escaped ones... I don't see an issue with that.

What hits me most against the chest is that you are so convinced that he always hunts on the same spot (to prove that he doesn't really listen to Dany, which might be imo but unrelated) without textual evidence, or strong hinting. But on the same time you choose to ignore very strong hinting with 'quite clear' textual evidence that Dany has ridden him more than once.

Or am I missing any quotes that you put here as proof that Drogon only hunts that spot?

[Fire Eater]

None of my last several comments were directed at you, or to you, or quoting you. Every one was a response to different posters (not you). So please stop responding to me as though I am calling you personally out, thanks.

The second paragraph was a response mainly to the quoted poster Natasi, and I quoted you since you're agreeing with her even when I didn't discredit Dany.

I am trying to express my opinions, the same as you. That's what this forum is for. Is that a crime? I gave you the benefit of a doubt, and it seems as if there is no pleasing you.

Fine, I will leave alone, just for saying the magic word.

[thetitansbastard]

This thread has gone completely off the rails. People are arguing how each other aren't dragons ffs lol. It seems it's just arguing for the sake of arguing, and the refusal to admit when wrong. There has been countless posts proving Daenerys has rode Drogon several times, why is this such a big deal?

No idea why that matters at all in regards to the OP. I'm just baffled that someone thinks Drogon is going to fly away and let Dany be captured. It could be awesome, but I would love to hear where people think it might go from there. The idea seems unlikely in the sense that the plot needs to start moving forward rapidly as I see it.

[Dany Girl]

No idea why that matters at all in regards to the OP. I'm just baffled that someone thinks Drogon is going to fly away and let Dany be captured. It could be awesome, but I would love to hear where people think it might go from there. The idea seems unlikely in the sense that the plot needs to start moving forward rapidly as I see it.

Considering the first thing Jhaqo ot Pono would do is brutally rape and beat Dany, I highly doubt that's where the story is going. I don't think GRRM would write a first hand account of that type of abuse, it's too much for most readers.

I don't think Dany has anything to worry about from the Dothraki thst found her. I don't think Drogon is going anywhere at this point. Even if he did leave, the moment Dany was harmed in any way he'd come back in a firey vengeance like nothing we've seen. You don't attack a dragon rider without the dragon freaking the fuck out on you. And the Dothraki have nothing to protect them from a dragon.

[Fire Eater]

No idea why that matters at all in regards to the OP. I'm just baffled that someone thinks Drogon is going to fly away and let Dany be captured. It could be awesome, but I would love to hear where people think it might go from there. The idea seems unlikely in the sense that the plot needs to start moving forward rapidly as I see it.

Drogon flew away without Dany in Meereen. If faced with 50 Dothraki riders attacking him, he would likely take flight. If less than a dozen in Meereen were enough to send him flying back, then I think 50 Dothraki are more than enough. Besides, Drogon would have left Daznak's pit without Dany, had she not jumped in. Drogon is not completely trained yet, and would leave her for simple reasons of survival.

Considering the first thing Jhaqo ot Pono would do is brutally rape and beat Dany, I highly doubt that's where the story is going. I don't think GRRM would write a first hand account of that type of abuse, it's too much for most readers.

I think he would more likely to take her back to VD to the dosh khaleen than rape and beat her.

I don't think Dany has anything to worry about from the Dothraki thst found her. I don't think Drogon is going anywhere at this point. Even if he did leave, the moment Dany was harmed in any way he'd come back in a firey vengeance like nothing we've seen. You don't attack a dragon rider without the dragon freaking the fuck out on you. And the Dothraki have nothing to protect them from a dragon.

She does have reason to fear as Jhaqo would likely take her back to VD to the dosh khaleen, and Dany had violated two taboos: blood magic and shedding blood in VD. Drogon would likely follow them back to VD. The Dothraki do have something to protect them from a small dragon: numbers. Less than a dozen men in the pit led to Drogon flying away back to his cave, and I think 50 mounted men would be much easier in sending Drogon packing.

[Dany Girl]

I think he would more likely to take her back to VD to the dosh khaleen than rape and beat her.

She does have reason to fear as Jhaqo would likely take her back to VD to the dosh khaleen, and Dany had violated two taboos: blood magic and shedding blood in VD. Drogon would likely follow them back to VD. The Dothraki do have something to protect them from a small dragon: numbers. Less than a dozen men in the pit led to Drogon flying away back to his cave, and I think 50 mounted men would be much easier in sending Drogon packing.

I think you underestimate how much the Kahls hate her, they positively loath her. No way the just politely take her back to VD. Maybe the would intend to take her there, but they'd rape and beat her the whole journey, and wouldn't care of she died on the way.

Dany is "responsible" for Drogo's death, she's also a woman who dares to break their conventions on what a woman should be. She dared speak out against their "right" to rape indiscriminately any woman they want. They hate her. They would not hesitate to hurt her if they could.

I don't believe Drogon is about to allow that to happen. I don't think he'll abandon her in her time of need. He's clearly shown his love and need to protect her, and now that they're bonded his protective instincts will only get stronger.

I think he'll kill Jhaqo, and the rest of the Dothraki will bow to her, because they follow strength, and dragons are the strongest beings they've ever seen. She'll then chose to go to VD- she's been conflicted about her path but she'll make her choice to go back before going forward. Along the journey or once in VD she'll meet with Pono and they'll clash.

I don't think her "drawing blood" on Visaerys will ever be brought up. It was only meabtioned once, while it happened, with no witnesses. If anyone saw it, I believe a bigger deal would have been made of it at the time. I think it's a completely moot point that will never come up again.

[Nictarion]

I don't think her "drawing blood" on Visaerys will ever be brought up. It was only meabtioned once, while it happened, with no witnesses. If anyone saw it, I believe a bigger deal would have been made of it at the time. I think it's a completely moot point that will never come up again.

Agreed. IIRC there were no witnesses when Daenerys struck Viserys. Even Drogo himself wasn't allowed to draw blood in VD, if anyone had seen Daenerys draw blood there would have likely been serious consequences. Even for a Khaleesi.

[HexMachina]

Agreed. IIRC there were no witnesses when Daenerys struck Viserys. Even Drogo himself wasn't allowed to draw blood in VD, if anyone had seen Daenerys draw blood there would have likely been serious consequences. Even for a Khaleesi.

Yup, agree with this. Martin makes mistakes/forgets things from time to time, as he himself has admitted. No need for us to make.mountains out of.molehills

[Dany Girl]

Agreed. IIRC there were no witnesses when Daenerys struck Viserys. Even Drogo himself wasn't allowed to draw blood in VD, if anyone had seen Daenerys draw blood there would have likely been serious consequences. Even for a Khaleesi.

And even if there were witnesses, they probably would have seen Visaerys attack Dany first and her defend herself. Just because she's in a holy city it doesn't make it reasonable to think she should let someone beat the hell out of her.

Since not a single person has said said anything about the incident, I think it was unseen. If it had been seen, there would have been immediate consequences, not consequences 3 years later.

[Fire Eater]

I think you underestimate how much the Kahls hate her, they positively loath her. No way the just politely take her back to VD. Maybe the would intend to take her there, but they'd rape and beat her the whole journey, and wouldn't care of she died on the way.

Dany is "responsible" for Drogo's death, she's also a woman who dares to break their conventions on what a woman should be. She dared speak out against their "right" to rape indiscriminately any woman they want. They hate her. They would not hesitate to hurt her if they could.

We haven't seen the khals since AGoT, so how do we know how much they hate her? I think Jhaqo might spare her the rapes, given she was Drogo's khaleesi. They would be required by custom to take her back to VD.

I don't believe Drogon is about to allow that to happen. I don't think he'll abandon her in her time of need. He's clearly shown his love and need to protect her, and now that they're bonded his protective instincts will only get stronger.

I think he'll kill Jhaqo, and the rest of the Dothraki will bow to her, because they follow strength, and dragons are the strongest beings they've ever seen. She'll then chose to go to VD- she's been conflicted about her path but she'll make her choice to go back before going forward. Along the journey or once in VD she'll meet with Pono and they'll clash.

Drogon is an animal, and doesn't know what love is. He would abandon her given his survival instinct wrt to overwhelming odds, and he is still not fully-trained. The Dothraki were looking to deal with Drogon sinc ehe had been eating their most important animals: horses, and they are likely looking to add to their street cred by fighting/killing a dragon.

Dany hasn't indicated she wants to go to VD, but to Meereen and from there to Westeros. Besides, GRRM has things get worse before they get better, he himself said so. Dany will likely need to be in a bad situation with her life imperiled before she mounts Drogon, and becomes the StMtW.

I don't think her "drawing blood" on Visaerys will ever be brought up. It was only meabtioned once, while it happened, with no witnesses. If anyone saw it, I believe a bigger deal would have been made of it at the time. I think it's a completely moot point that will never come up again.

It would be since he was leaving the tent with a cut, and it is mentioned there is no privacy in a khalasar, people no doubt would have seen it. They would think she used a blade. Breaking the taboo of spilling blood in VD is taken as seriously as violating guest right in Westeros.

[Cas Stark]

Is it allowed to rape a dead khal's wife? i know you can kill the children, but can you rape his widow?

[Fire Eater]

Is it allowed to rape a dead khal's wife? i know you can kill the children, but can you rape his widow?

A khal's widow is supposed to be sent to VD to be one of the dosh khaleen.