Ned-Cat, breaking up the team

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

What I believe is this: Ned died in King's Landing because his wife wasn't around to deal with the messy parts of ruling. Ned understood hard power but not soft power.

We've all been lead to believe that before AGoT Ned ruled the North as a benevolent autocrat. But early in the first book, we see a more nuanced picture.

Ned: The day may come when I have no choice but to call the banners and ride North to deal with this King-Beyond-the-Wall for good and all.

Cat: Beyond the wall?

Ned: Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear.

Cat: There are darker things beyond the Wall.

Ned: You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years, Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.

Cat: Until this mourning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either.

Ned: I ought to know better than to argue with a Tulley.

So Ned shares important matters of state with his wife and he respects her intelligence.

To look at the conversation they have in the bed chamber when they get Lysa's letter, notice that Ned went to bed resolved to tell Robert “thanx, but no thanx.” Ned and Cat are both POV characters, but we see this scene through Cat so we understand how she drives the conversation from start to finish. Guileless Ned has no strategic counter-moves in a game he doesn't know he's playing.

But Ned has talent. He's a smart battle tactician. Robb learned everything he knew from Ned. He knows how to inspire his troops, another skill handed down. I was also impressed with his practice of having an open chair where his armorer, his steward or his master of horse occasionally have supper with his family so he can learn the details of how his castle is running.

Cat has complimentary talents. She knows her chivalry. She knows what house is loyal to whom and how to exploit those allegiances. Thus she stands up in a room full of strangers and rustles up a posse.

Fast foreword to Ned holding court. He decides to respond to Lanister atrocities by sending a host since that's his style. Loras volunteers to lead the host. Ned picks Beric for his age and experience, thinking like a field commander. What doesn't fit into Ned's method is that the Stormlands are so bush-league that the Lannister Guard can and do hang Beric. If Tywin had killed Mace Tyrell's favorite son, Starks and Tulleys would have quickly become the least of Tywin's problems. Varys tried to explain it to Ned, but he would have listened to Cat.

[James Arryn]

I definitely think cat would have been more likely to pre-empt Sansa's betrayal, and MAYBE gave a better feel for LF's specific intentions. That's about it, though.

On the other hand she's one more person to get out of KL, and his family (Sansa) being caught in KL was ultimately what fucked Ned.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I could see Cat convincing Ned to follow Renly's advice of securing Cersei's kids

[James Arryn]

I could see Cat convincing Ned to follow Renly's advice of securing Cersei's kids

Possible. Or at least trying.

[Boarsbane]

A lot of the shitty situations he found himself in were thanks to Cat and her little incident in the Riverlands so Ned would be better off with her there just by the fact she wouldn't be elsewhere making trouble

[Rorey Targaryen]

Wasn't Cat the one who told Ned to trust Littlefinger?

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

I could see Cat convincing Ned to follow Renly's advice of securing Cersei's kids

Definitely. Ned gave Cersei a chance to run away. Cat would have counselled elsewise.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Ned and Cat were the series power couple. They should have never come south of the Neck, but then, we wouldn't have ASOIAF...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wasn't Cat the one who told Ned to trust Littlefinger?

Indeed, but up until that moment, there was nothing to suspect what kind of person LF actually was.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Indeed, but up until that moment, there was nothing to suspect what kind of person LF actually was.

And Littlefinger's proposition was relatively smart: get the kids away from Cersei, keep Renly on the team, deal with Stannis and Tywin, presumably with the help of the Tyrells, and if Joffrey proved troublesome, just reveal the bit about the incest and seat Renly on the throne.

Cat wasn't exactly Stannis' #1 biggest fan, so I could see her pushing for this plan. Of course, whether or not Ned would have agreed is another matter entirely

[PrinceHenryris]

Robb and Sansa are/were Tullys.

Jon and Arya are Strarks.

Brandon's on his way to godhood.

Neither the Old gods or the New know what Rickon's going to do.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

I definitely think cat would have been more likely to pre-empt Sansa's betrayal, and MAYBE gave a better feel for LF's specific intentions. That's about it, though.

On the other hand she's one more person to get out of KL, and his family (Sansa) being caught in KL was ultimately what fucked Ned.

I'm not sure taking the whole clan south was the best move. But Ned never had a prayer on his own.

[Talking Hodor]

A lot of the shitty situations he found himself in were thanks to Cat and her little incident in the Riverlands so Ned would be better off with her there just by the fact she wouldn't be elsewhere making trouble

I have to agree with this. Catelyn inadvertently created a few messes that make Ned's mistakes pale in comparison.

Neither Ned nor Catelyn would probably win grand prizes in the game of thrones, but they could have helped each other out together and at least gotten their asses back to Winterfell safe and sound.

[Talking Hodor]

Robb and Sansa are/were Tullys.

Jon and Arya are Strarks.

Brandon's on his way to godhood.

Neither the Old gods or the New know what Rickon's going to do.

Beyond his red hair (which he incidentally shared with Bran and Rickon), I never pictured Robb as a Tully. He was grim, he used his direwolf frequently, and he garnered enough respect from the Northern lords for them to declare him King in the North.

Bran's on his way to becoming a tree unless he Hodors his way out of that boring cave.

Rickon's about to become a mighty unicorn rider and slay the others with an obsidian-tipped, suspiciously phallic unicorn horn.

Sansa certainly takes after her mother more than her father, but I think she's gonna get pretty grim with Littlefinger once she finds out what he did.

No argument about Jon and Arya - they're very Starkish.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

Robb and Sansa are/were Tullys.

Jon and Arya are Strarks.

Brandon's on his way to godhood.

Neither the Old gods or the New know what Rickon's going to do.

If by Stark/Tulley you mean hair & eyes, it goes,

Tully: Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon

Stark: Jon, Arya

If we're going by strengths and weaknesses I'd say,

Tully: Sansa

Stark: Robb, Bran, Arya

Too soon to say about Rickon.

In the early books I would have called Jon a Stark an a half. But at the end of ADwD he plays some subtle politics like a pro.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

Wasn't Cat the one who told Ned to trust Littlefinger?

Yea, that was dumb.

[barmyscouser]

Could Eddard and Catelyn together have matched wits with Cersei, Varys and LF? Doubtful.

But LF has two obvious weaknesses. One is Cat herself. The other is his vanity. LF completely understands the general need for discretion, but he could never forego the opportunity to explain to someone how strategically brilliant he is. In this vein LF told Ned that he, Cersei and Varys all maintained networks of spies in KL. A politically smart person would respond by thinking, "Golly, House Stark should have it's own network of spies in KL. Given the overflowing population of ragged street urchins in Flea Bottom, we should be able to recruit an army of spies with a bucket of soup." Ned clearly wasn't that smart and I'm not betting on Cat.

But the good news is that the next generation of Starks is completely unencumbered that way. Can you imagine Sansa, Arya or Bran saying "Spies? who needs spies?" Remember that LF, KM and BR are their sensei.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Meh. They would have worked better together. But not to the extent you seem to presume.

Most of the criticisms you level at Ned are based on one fact: Robert and Lady Luck did everything in their power to twarth anything he achieved.

Sansa certainly takes after her mother more than her father, but I think she's gonna get pretty grim with Littlefinger once she finds out what he did.

No argument about Jon and Arya - they're very Starkish.

That's so very, very wrong on so many levels. Except facial features that is.

Sansa is very like Ned, loving and believing in stories, doing one's duty, honor, all that. Only that she is a female conforming to societies expectations instead of a male conforming to societies expectations.

The hands-on, vengeful Arya? That's Cat. Only twenty-five years younger

[PrinceHenryris]

Beyond his red hair (which he incidentally shared with Bran and Rickon), I never pictured Robb as a Tully. He was grim, he used his direwolf frequently, and he garnered enough respect from the Northern lords for them to declare him King in the North.

Bran's on his way to becoming a tree unless he Hodors his way out of that boring cave.

Rickon's about to become a mighty unicorn rider and slay the others with an obsidian-tipped, suspiciously phallic unicorn horn.

Sansa certainly takes after her mother more than her father, but I think she's gonna get pretty grim with Littlefinger once she finds out what he did.

No argument about Jon and Arya - they're very Starkish.

Some good points, but even though I'd agree that Robb tried to emulate Ned, Ned would have handled things differently and it was Robb's Tully allegiance that kept him South of the Neck.

[Cat Alayne]

I hate it when people generalise the starks into starks and tullys. How about there is not one personality attributed to a house, look at the differences between Ned and Brandon or Cat and Edmure.

In terms of who is most like they're parents,

Bran Robb and Sansa remind me more of Ned than Cat

The child that most resembles their parent in terms of personality is Arya taking after Cat. Cat is like Arya if she accepted and embraced her gender roles.

Rickon is too young to tell, but he seems wilder like his uncles.