Ned-Cat, breaking up the team

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

Catelyn had plenty of reason to resent Jon, not that it was right. But I suspect that among her resentments was that as far as we know Jon represents the one time Ned pulled rank and froze Cat out of the decision making process.

[Grail King]

Wasn't Cat the one who told Ned to trust Littlefinger?

If by Stark/Tulley you mean hair & eyes, it goes,

Tully: Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon

Stark: Jon, Arya

If we're going by strengths and weaknesses I'd say,

Tully: Sansa

Stark: Robb, Bran, Arya

Too soon to say about Rickon.

In the early books I would have called Jon a Stark an a half. But at the end of ADwD he plays some subtle politics like a pro.

​Short answer- Yes, but she hadn't seen him in like 15 years and remembered him as a brother, she didn't know what a conniving bastard he became and he played more powerful people then the Starks in that time.

Sansa from a innocence pov is Ned,but she actually has (to me anyway) the best of both parents, her fathers kindness and her mom's knowledge of the system they are born in; so if she can harness what LF is showing her without loosing what she gained from both parents ( also her head ) she could be a very formidable asset for House Stark .

Between the books and show she should be able to add up Lysa's words in the Eyrie; and Petyr's actions and come up with a possible he helped kill my parents.

[springchild]

It could be argued that Cat was partially responsible for Ned's death, in that she made an awful decision in capturing Tyrion. She did not at all think about the fact that the Lannisters pretty had half her family in the palms of their hands, at court. She thought only of vengeance, and on evidence that was iffy at best since she must have known that Littlefinger is prone to shooting off his mouth, especially when it came to impressing her. Had she at least allowed Tyrion to explain she may have come to the same doubt then that she came to later when Tyrion did explain himself.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

A lot of the shitty situations he found himself in were thanks to Cat and her little incident in the Riverlands so Ned would be better off with her there just by the fact she wouldn't be elsewhere making trouble

When Tyrion walked into the Crossroads Inn and recognizes Cat she has to make a snap judgement. The play she came up with proved in the long run to be unstrategic, but it sure was bold!

Together I imagine Ned keeping Cat from being rash and Cat keeping Ned from being naive. Among Ned's talents I should have mentioned that he's patient and steady and never looses his cool.

[Roose on the Loose]

I'm pretty sure that if Cat had gone south with Ned, Arya never would have learned sword fighting.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Beyond his red hair (which he incidentally shared with Bran and Rickon), I never pictured Robb as a Tully. He was grim, he used his direwolf frequently, and he garnered enough respect from the Northern lords for them to declare him King in the North.

For some strange reason I find it really hard to imagine how the Kings of Winter would had said "I took her castle and she took my heart." or that for their so called honor would had lost the North. BTW people followed him because of his surname, he just proved them right.

[Tywin Manderly]

For some strange reason I find it really hard to imagine how the Kings of Winter would had said "I took her castle and she took my heart." or that for their so called honor would had lost the North. BTW people followed him because of his surname, he just proved them right.

The political fool Robb Stark at his best.

[Mladen]

I'm pretty sure that if Cat had gone south with Ned, Arya never would have learned sword fighting.

And whose idea was to send Arya to South and teach her some lady manners? Just to be clear, not Cat's.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Catelyn had plenty of reason to resent Jon, not that it was right. But I suspect that among her resentments was that as far as we know Jon represents the one time Ned pulled rank and froze Cat out of the decision making process.

Excellent observation. Never thought of that but it makes perfect sense. Cat should not have made a big deal about Jon's existence given the circumstances and environment. But pulling rank and overruling her decisions is definitely something she would not forgive and forget.

As for the original topic, I think people are too harsh on Cat. Her decisions are not totally unreasonable. And Ned has his share of stupidity as well.

In any case I doubt it that both of them together would do much better. They were a good couple , but can't say they completed each other politically.

[James Arryn]

Excellent observation. Never thought of that but it makes perfect sense. Cat should not have made a big deal about Jon's existence given the circumstances and environment. But pulling rank and overruling her decisions is definitely something she would not forgive and forget.

Except she did. Again, it was not Jon who pulled rank/overruled, it was Ned, and they got along great.

Edit: and why would she object so naturally to her husband pulling rank when her father seems to do just that very often?

[David Selig]

Except she did.

Nope.

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Except she did. Again, it was not Jon who pulled rank/overruled, it was Ned, and they got along great.

Edit: and why would she object so naturally to her husband pulling rank when her father seems to do just that very often?

She saw herself as a partner to Ned, not an obedient little wife and he treated her as such. Which is, if we relate to the original topic, why he left her in WF.

This is the one time where he doesn't let her in on the secrets and overrules her decision. Jon is a constant reminder that despite it all at the end of the day Ned can and will pull rank when he thinks necessary and that despite all the love and trust they had there are certain things she will never be part of.

Its not so much the fact that he slept with another woman, during a war when they both hardly even knew each other and in a world where most man have mistresses. its the fact he forces this decision on her and refuses to tell her the truth that makes her mad.

[James Arryn]

Nope.

But she did. There's. I estrangement, no repercussions towards Ned at all. Just to Jon, which isn't a forgiveness issue. Do we see any behaviour towards Ned directly which is tempered by this Lack of forgiveness?

That's the point: she's projecting/re-directing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But she did. There's. I estrangement, no repercussions towards Ned at all. Just to Jon, which isn't a forgiveness issue. Do we see any behaviour towards Ned directly which is tempered by this Lack of forgiveness?

That's the point: she's projecting/re-directing.

Allow me to give you a piece of advise; Don't get into this. You really cannot make a constructive discussion with a CatStan about Cat, no matter what Cat's thoughts are they know better than her PoV,and they will nag and troll you to submission.

[Mladen]

Allow me to give you a piece of advise; Don't get into this. You really cannot make a constructive discussion with a CatStan about Cat, no matter what Cat's thoughts are they know better than her PoV,and they will nag and troll you to submission.

The same advice we have to give with regard to Cat haters.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The same advice we have to give with regard to Cat haters.

You see the difference is that Cat haters don't personally attack Catstans in any way, however Catstans attack Cat haters. I think that there is a great difference between those two.

[Mladen]

You see the difference is that Cat haters don't personally attack Catstans in any way, however Catstans attack Cat haters. I think that there is a great difference between those two.

Honestly, I haven't seen personal attack here... But, my friend, I find rather ironic that hater speaks of constructive debates, since it is well known that you can't have one with a hater. And I should know about that...

And, for both of our sake, we should end it with apology for small derailment. :)

[Tywin Manderly]

The same advice we have to give with regard to Cat haters.

Absolutely! :thumbsup:

[juanml82]

Wasn't Cat the one who told Ned to trust Littlefinger?

IIRC, she told LF, in front of Ned, that she considered him a friend. Ok, that's pretty much saying "Hey Ned, this guy is reliable, at least to me", but it's not a "Hey Ned, just trust Petyr". Also, we should remember Catelyn starts her first encounter with LF thinking she only trusts him a little. Later on, she doesn't flat out believe Tyrion's version of the events... but it's Tyrion, it's not like she is going to trust the man she, idiotically, believes responsible for the attempt on Bran's life.

Together I imagine Ned keeping Cat from being rash and Cat keeping Ned from being naive. Among Ned's talents I should have mentioned that he's patient and steady and never looses his cool.

Yep. I wonder if Robert would have been better served by traveling all the way to Winterfell to award the Handship to Catelyn instead. She screws up when her temper and her fear for her children get in the way, but the court isn't the place where that's bound to happen.

Of course, Robert wouldn't do it because he trusts Ned and barely knows Catelyn, but that's an interesting thought.

I'm pretty sure that if Cat had gone south with Ned, Arya never would have learned sword fighting.

"So what did Jon told you when he gave you this sword?"

"Don't tell Sansa"

"Ok. Don't tell your mother either"

Later on

"Ned, why is Arya so bruised and cut?"

(Shrugs) "She's probably a terrible dancer. Sansa believes as much"