Heresy 125

[Voice]

Wasn't that discussed in the previous thread, re the NK ? I would urge caution with regard the story, I suspect some exaggeration. The difference between the northern accounts of Jahaerys & Alysanne's visit and the story supposedly told to the targ children is interesting.

Perhaps a compromise ? King J & Queen A went to Winterfell at the request of the Lord Stark. There was some trouble with a KBTW. Queen A flies to the Wall, does a fly past of the Wildlings, Silverwing breathes some fire and scares the shit out of them, then everybody goes home :dunno:

Sure, but I was interested in what people thought of the "vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs," travelling south together, towards the kingdom of the dragonlords, over 200 years ago. Seems like a strange thing to take place without great motivation.

[TheButcherCrow]

If the Black Gate at the Nightfort was originally the only way to pass from one side of the Wall to the other then clearly that was done for a reason. Doesn't it strike you that cutting massive great gates into the Wall at each of the castles constitutes a pretty serious breach of the rental agreement ?

[TheButcherCrow]

Sure, but I was interested in what people thought of the "vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs," travelling south together, towards the kingdom of the dragonlords, over 200 years ago. Seems like a strange thing to take place without great motivation.

To be fair, it doesn't actually say the vast host was travelling south does it ? I haven't read it myself and have only your quote to go on and that just says that they defeated a vast host of wildlings, wargs and giants. From that it could very well have been the annual "wildling, warg and giant cook-out" for all we know :dunno:

[Eira Seren]

I hope this isn't off topic, but our recent Supreme Court ruling that corporations cannot be forced to pay for contraceptive coverage if it goes against their religious beliefs contrasts quite sharply with the actions of these very same "Christian" corporations who have long standing business relationships with manufacturers in China, a country known for it's "one-child" mandate, forced abortions, slave labor and other "sins". There are also similar "Christians" who wish to cut social programs that feed, house, clothe, and provide medical care for the poor who cannot afford children. They're pro-life when it's still in the woman's body, but once that baby is out, you're on your own. Maybe this isn't a good example for our discussion of male otherizing, but I'm trying to illustrate the hypocrisy of a paternalistic society that worries so much about what's going on with our vaginas. Women have been sexualized to the point that society is so uncomfortable with breastfeeding that what was once a natural and wholesome act is now something shameful or dirty, even arousing.

I would love to see this story end with a female heroine, even though I'm fond of Jon's character. He's the redeeming male. He's "George" and Daenerys is "Lisa". Maybe the two will get together after all?

Oh, I'm right there with you. It's possible that at the end we'll be looking at two fairly balanced leaders working together.

When Theon is tortured or Janos Slynt gets his head chopped off, did you feel good? When Mel burns people with the genuine belief that she's saving the world, do you hate her ? When Robb attacks a Lannister camp under cover of night while men are asleep, did you laugh or cheer ? These are the uncomfortable questions GRRM is asking.

A lot to discuss here:

TheButcherCrow.....what character epitomizes the male Other-ness more so than Ramsay Bolton?

How many times have you heard a group of young men out on a night out looking to pick up women be referred to as "on the hunt" or "on the prowl" ? Yes, Ramsay is literally everything women fear about men and that men fear about themselves.

"If GRRM is otherizing male sexuality, should we rethink Jon who I, (and many) look to as being a heroic character? Is George building Jon's arc in such a way as we expect him to save the day, only to dash our expectations and give us Daenerys? Even her nickname sounds like a man (Danny)." - Feather

"You know, I think you're right. Look at the way he paints Daario-- that's certainly an interesting reversal of perspectives and how Dany rather objectifies him. The blue hair, beard, and ostentatious outfit are all part of the package." - Eira

Had a bit of a eureka moment actually when you guys posted this. Let's look at Dany, her first sexual encounter has always been problematic (to say the least). Whilst initially refusing Drogo, in the end she seems to acquiesce. I'll ask you to do one thing, reimagine that scene with Dany as a 13yr old boy and Drogo as a "MILF" character. It's lot less uncomfortable isn't it ? Funny that...

Now let's look at Jon. 13/14 yr old Jon refuses sex with gorgeous prostitute because he thinks about the consequences. That does not seem the stereotypical portrayal of a teenage boy does it ? He eventually is persuaded into having sex by an older, more experienced partner. A partner who he sleeps with because he is in love. He waited till he was in love. Now imagine Jon was a girl. His narrative fits more readily with the traditional representation of female attitudes toward sex.

Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. With Dany's attitude toward Dario and Jon's to Ygritte we can see that with Jon and Dany, GRRM has reversed the traditional "sexual coming-of-age" tropes.

Oohh, lots to discuss with those reversals, it's a pretty good comparison. Also, one of Jon's new BFFs is a former male prostitute.

Dany, on the other hand, has some qualms about shagging her female Dothraki servant. . . but goes ahead anyway.

You're reading of Ramsay is pretty much spot on.

And um, yes, I cheered when Janos Slynt got his just desserts.

it could very well have been the annual "wildling, warg and giant cook-out" for all we know :dunno:

To be held on the same night as the NW booze-up celebrating winning the battle for the dawn. The only rule is you can't show up later at the other one sober.

Though if the three really were together, that's an unusual alliance unless perhaps it's something similar to the defeat of the NK? (Starks, Joramun, giants?)

[Phillip Frye]

I think that magic normally requires something (seed, blood, baby, life, etc.) to work in Martin's world. The thing given doesn't have to belong to you (Varys' man parts). However, royal sacrifices increase the effect of the magic. In one case, nothing was required beyond having a dream with your head on a weirwood stump. Warging/skinchanging also doesn't seem to require sacrifice on the part of the person initiating the warg/skinchanging or the animal warged/skinchanged although the relationship changes both parties, sometimes for the worse.

I think that Martin is purposefully keeping this as amorphous as possible.

[Phillip Frye]

To be fair, it doesn't actually say the vast host was travelling south does it ? I haven't read it myself and have only your quote to go on and that just says that they defeated a vast host of wildlings, wargs and giants. From that it could very well have been the annual "wildling, warg and giant cook-out" for all we know :dunno:

It was WildCon '78. Jaehaerys I got so wasted and hooked up with some cosplay gals. Queen Alysanne was supremely pissed and turned Silverwing onto the entire gathering, killing thousands. You see how history exaggerates these events?

[TheButcherCrow]

It was WildCon '78. Jaehaerys I got so wasted and hooked up with some cosplay gals. Queen Alysanne was supremely pissed and turned Silverwing onto the entire gathering, killing thousands. You see how history exaggerates these events?

:lmao:

Though if the three really were together, that's an unusual alliance unless perhaps it's something similar to the defeat of the NK? (Starks, Joramun, giants?)

My initial instinct is that Jahaerys made up the giants and the wargs, to frighten the kiddies, but that something did happen with some wildlings. Perhaps the world book will illuminate us on this particular mystery.

[TheButcherCrow]

I think that Martin is purposefully keeping this as amorphous as possible.

:agree: Totally

[Eira Seren]

It was WildCon '78. Jaehaerys I got so wasted and hooked up with some cosplay gals. Queen Alysanne was supremely pissed and turned Silverwing onto the entire gathering, killing thousands. You see how history exaggerates these events?

:lol:

It sounds oddly specific. . . and biographical. I refer to the reminiscing in which GRRM mentioned something about a Con, some girls, and a tub full of jello.

My initial instinct is that Jahaerys made up the giants and the wargs, to frighten the kiddies, but that something did happen with some wildlings. Perhaps the world book will illuminate us on this particular mystery.

This is rapidly becoming a fervent wish!

[TheButcherCrow]

This is rapidly becoming a fervent wish!

117 days

[Eira Seren]

117 days

Tooo loooonng.

[Black Crow]

Eye of the storm, wolfmaid. While their winds may dissipate once they are in close proximity, the cold does not die down with their company, rather, it is described as being quite unbearable (i.e. Samwell's frozen bladder).

:agree:

And, when Ser Waymar meets the First Walker in the prologue:

"He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. "Answer me! Why is it so cold?"...

First Walker appears: The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

Then: They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them...four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them...

Its explicit, unambiguous and in line with “The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come." a line which goes right back to the Ice Dragon - and it was the dragon which brought the cold.

[Black Crow]

I saw them as more of an abstract, if that makes sense ? They are the sum of all fear, the personification of fear in fact. Their very name is a curse, their presence brings death and cold, they hate hot blood. This is a very primal fear of dark and death that they are drawn from. But what a kicker if they turned out not to be the ultimate outsider but it turns out they display more of the self that the self would care to admit.

Well exactly so, and that horror of course is brought out so explicitly in my tag-line:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

The Others are not something external, they are humans, Craster's sons...

[redriver]

:agree:

And, when Ser Waymar meets the First Walker in the prologue:

"He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. "Answer me! Why is it so cold?"...

First Walker appears: The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

Then: They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them...four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them...

Its explicit, unambiguous and in line with “The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come." a line which goes right back to the Ice Dragon - and it was the dragon which brought the cold.

The pointlessness of even addressing this "cold as an entity business" is that it will never be validated in the novels and this non validation will be taken as positive proof of the theory,because it's in the text.At least it is if you select certain words and colour them red. :cool4:

[horizon]

Then: They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them...four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them...

Highlighting twins, thus all of them look a like.

And if they are all Craster's sons it makes sense.

[BoSnitker]

Not all the white walkers are sons of Craster.

[Black Crow]

'course not, there had to be others before him, and once again if we come back to the women, they could have said the white walkers were coming, they could have said grumkins, snarks or wights were coming, but no, it was "the sons".

There's also an echo of this horror in that reference to "cold northern ghosts, vengeful spirits..."; we're not talking about an external threat but about the damned.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Honestly, I think this is where George catches a lot of flak. I think he is trying to otherize male sexuality in his books as an attempt to deconstruct the trope. If we step outside and look at the portrayals of male sexuality in the books through the eye of the reader, not the characters observing the behaviour, then we get a pretty horrifying picture of rape, snuff, bestiality, necrophilia and pedophilia. The most taboo of taboos. To show his characters engaging in many of these activities he actually creates a sexual creature so foreign from the modern reader as to become an almost Other-like figure. The "other anxiety" is created when the reader finds themselves identifying with characters that have done terrible things and asking themselves, for example; "is it wrong for me to laugh at a joke made by a pedo ?"

What will then blow your mind is to realise that, while he (GRRM) as the author of the books is engaged in an attempt to otherize male sexuality for a modern audience, the characters in his books are engaged in an attempt to otherize female sexuality !! Now that is "meta-textual" folks.

...Yeah, it does. I think what we're seeing with your description is the way they are currently (and historically) perceived in Westeros (if snarks and grumpkins are real at all). However, I'm almost certain you're right and they are something else. That's why so many of us think they're probably related to Starks or perhaps connected with Singers and are a bit of a dirty family secret. The problem at that point is not to continue to read them as mere projections of Stark fears, but to see them as beings with their own agency.

GRRM could be musing over the same sorts of questions when he says he isn't sure whether or not the Others have their own culture.

ETA: as an example of what I mean, I'll go back to Jane Eyre, which Snowfyre mentioned earlier in relation to the chestnut tree, but also includes some basic symbolism:

Great posts. I was definitely headed in this general direction, but y'all have taken this "othering sexuality" stuff and really run with it! Lots to think about...

[Black Crow]

The pointlessness of even addressing this "cold as an entity business" is that it will never be validated in the novels and this non validation will be taken as positive proof of the theory,because it's in the text.At least it is if you select certain words and colour them red. :cool4:

I'd also add that separating the elements involved is a quite unnecessary and indeed pointless complication in a story already turned upside down as it is by the Craster's sons business, especially this late in the day.

[Black Crow]

And still on the subject of overturning cosy assumptions, I watched the last episode of season 4 again the other night.

I still think the way the Scooby Gang got ambushed outside the cave and Leaf's so very evident lack of concern over Jojen and Meera is significant. Its something which is present in the book - not to mention that squalid litter of bones inside the cave.

I don't know how non-readers have reacted to those scenes but there was absolutely nothing there to suggest that the Scoobies are in a good place.