Heresy 126

[butterbumps!]

@Butterbumps I saw your post on the sword of the morning and Dawn; on a recent re-read I noticed a point rarely made in relation to Dawn, noting that the "Sword of the Morning" is a prominent constellation akin to the "Ice Dragon." So assumedly the star fell (starfall) from that constellation to help forge Dawn; However ive been often skeptical of the Otherish qualities of Dawn

Oh-- that was one of the things I just listed out. I think the constellation references are significant, especially because these two are among the only ones the wildlings and kneelers use the same name for (the other constellation names aren't shared; those actually deserve mention for contrasting).

When you say you're skeptical of the Otherish qualities of Dawn, do you mean that you think it might be an Other's sword? I'd long suspected that the original "Ice" was an Other's sword, but I'm not so sure I see Dawn as being one of theirs too.

ETA: here are the other constellation names:

Ice Dragon, Shadowcat, Moonmaid and SotM are shared.

Here's where they differ: (Wildling name --- kneeler name)

Cradle -- King's Crown

Horned Lord -- the Stallion

the Thief-- Smith's red wanderer

Oh, and I'm not sure if this is significant. The north star is the blue one in the dragon's eye, so that's the one you follow north.

[oursisthefury69]

@Butterbumps, Yea sorry I didn't go through your entire list, I just saw you getting into Dawn and I had re-read the passage yesterday about the Sword of the Morning constellation and wanted to remember to bring it up, I hardly ever see people even reference it when discussing Dawn.

And yes I have suspected Dawn to be an actual Other's sword, the physical descriptions of it are eerily similar to some of the Other's descriptions, the pale-white and milk glass descriptions to name a few. I also think there's something more to the phrasing "the battle for the dawn" in reference to the Long Night

[butterbumps!]

@Butterbumps, Yea sorry I didn't go through your entire list, I just saw you getting into Dawn and I had re-read the passage yesterday about the Sword of the Morning constellation and wanted to remember to bring it up, I hardly ever see people even reference it when discussing Dawn.

And yes I have suspected Dawn to be an actual Other's sword, the physical descriptions of it are eerily similar to some of the Other's descriptions, the pale-white and milk glass descriptions to name a few. I also think there's something more to the phrasing "the battle for the dawn" in reference to the Long Night

hmm-- yea, I've seen theories about that. But Dawn isn't made of crystal; the Others' swords in the Prologue are seen as not being metal of any sort, but crystal. And as far as we know, there aren't accounts of Dawn's making other swords screech the way the Others' do.

For sure, there's some physical similarities-- both are quite pale and light, almost glowing. But I struggle with the idea that they are one in the same because of the lack of screeching and how Dawn's never been described as a crystal rather than metal.

ETA: the Others' bones are what's described as "milkglass," not their swords from what I can tell. Dawn, the Others' bones and the Asshai ghost grass are what's compared to "milk glass." Milk glass is opaque, whereas I had thought the Others' blades were translucent.

[Black Crow]

Considering how much of these threads are based off of Craster, I'm surprised to never see anybody quoting Ygritte when she tells Jon where he comes from. Craster was fathered by a man of the Night's Watch beyond the Wall during a ranging with a woman from Whitetree; Once she gave birth to Craster, she brought him to the Wall only to be chased back away by the Night's Watch. Ygritte finally concludes telling Jon that Crasters bears a heavy curse.

So we have Craster's mom coming from Whitetree, a place where the Old Gods still appear to have power with a huge Weirwood. And now Craster helping repopulate the Others who have been picking off Night's Watch men, the same order of men who cruelly chased off Craster's mom when she wanted help for her child. Another interesting aspect of this is the complete breaking of the "father no children" vow, and the subsequent consequences for the entire watch after it was broken

Oh we have turned this one over a few times, because there a couple of things in there which bear a little thought. As you note, Ygritte says he bears a heavy curse, but doesn't actually say he himself is accursed or why. There may be nothing in it, but it rather sounds as though the curse is something which is inherited rather than something his own actions have brought down upon him. Carrying that thought further, while agreeing that the Whitetree reference may be significant, there's room for doubt about his father actually being a man of the Nights Watch because it parallels so closely with Gilly's experience, ie; she did a runner for the Wall and tried to get her babe through to safety on the other side, but not having Sam with her, the Watch told her to pull the other one because the bells do play a merry tune, and so condemned baby Craster to bear the family curse.

[Black Crow]

The potential and hinted connection between the COTF and Ice is something that boggles my mind, particularly given that their philosophy/religion seems to promote a holistic and balanced look at the elements rather than being aligned with one "side". Nevertheless, I wonder if the COTF were originally just anti-Fire and thus became connected to Ice by default. There is some precedent in fantasy literature of a forest race or people that are skeptical of fire and are the stories of the original FM coming and burning weirwoods (or was this just the Andals?).

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to get at here - just spitballing - but it is seems that this might be a nice mundane and simple connection between the COTF and Others.

It was both the First Men and then the Andals who burned the weirwoods

As to a connection with Ice its worth bearing in mind that the calling down of the Hammer was supposedly worked by dark magic - presumably reluctantly and as a last resort rather that undertaken lightly

[Black Crow]

... A lot of what you say is very much in line with what passes for "mainstream" heresy and some of us would argue that despite the overthrow of the Nights King there has always been a Stark on the Wall - and perhaps for all we know he is still the King of Winter/Nights King.

A thought to carry this one a little further. When the Wall is about to be attacked by Mance Rayder, Maester Aemon tells Jon he must take command because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

On one level this is a major tenet of heresy; that Jon is a son of Winterfell. not the Iron Throne, but is there something deeper here. A man leaves his family behind when he joins the Watch - as Maester Aemon Targaryen so clearly explains, yet all of a sudden it is important that Jon Snow, the bearer of an anonymous name is a son of Winterfell and as such must take command.

Must there indeed be a Stark on the Wall just as there must be a Stark in Winterfell? Benjen Stark is gone so that means Jon Stark must take his place, and is this also why he was being groomed as Mormont's squire? The short answer to that one has to be yes, but is Benjen Stark's disappearance also linked insofar as with Jon, his successor, on the Wall was it time for Benjen to take that long walk North?

[Ygritte]

A thought to carry this one a little further. When the Wall is about to be attacked by Mance Rayder, Maester Aemon tells Jon he must take command because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

On one level this is a major tenet of heresy; that Jon is a son of Winterfell. not the Iron Throne, but is there something deeper here. A man leaves his family behind when he joins the Watch - as Maester Aemon Targaryen so clearly explains, yet all of a sudden it is important that Jon Snow, the bearer of an anonymous name is a son of Winterfell.

Must there indeed be a Stark on the Wall just as there must be a Stark in Winterfell. Benjen Stark is gone so that means Jon Stark must take his place, but is this also why he was being groomed as Mormont's squire? The short answer to that one has to be yes, but is Benjen Stark's disappearance also linked insofar as with Jon, his successor, on the Wall was time for Benjen to take that long walk North?

I like this, It definitely does seem that the NW has a special regard for Starks, and it might be that in the past, there was always one younger son sent. It would tie in nicely with the NK and his brother the KitN.

[Amoracchius]

Sure we can. Civilization, Third Reich, Diplomacy, Republic of Rome, Britannia, Pax Britannica, Kingmaker, and History of the World. They're all on my bookshelves. Getting together might be a challenge.

Not a board game, but I think a Heresy-wide game of CK2 would be extremely interesting: http://www.moddb.com/mods/crusader-kings-2-a-game-of-thrones-ck2agot

[Black Crow]

I like this, It definitely does seem that the NW has a special regard for Starks, and it might be that in the past, there was always one younger son sent. It would tie in nicely with the NK and his brother the KitN.

It also explains the apparent absence of junior branches of the family.

[Ygritte]

Apologies if this has been hashed and rehashed here, and also for wandering off topic, but I've got greyscale on my mind while rereading ADWD.

The first thing I noticed was that there's a story about it that reminds me of the Night's King and White Lady story (bolding mine):

The heat from the glowing coals brought a flush to Tyrion's face. "Is there a Shrouded Lord? Or is he just some tale?"

"The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin's day," said Yandry. "Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave."

"The dead do not rise," insisted Haldon Halfmaester, "and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place. This one is a corsair from the Basilisk Islands who believed the Rhoyne would offer richer pickings than the Summer Sea."

"Aye, I've heard that too," said Duck, "but there's another tale I like better. The one that says he's not like t'other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice."

So again we have an Otherly lady as part of the origin story.

So as that's metaphorically rolling down the hill in my head, it picks up the similarity between greyscale and the appearance of wights (extremities turning black), and also Val's sudden vehemence about Shireen (calling her the "dead girl"). And then I wondered where Shireen got greyscale in the first place, and my first guess is Patchface as an asymptomatic carrier (of whom it is said "a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed")...which also sounds like the NK seed/soul tale.

So my theory is that greyscale may be a sort of slow-mo version of wighting. Poor Shireen, I just don't see a lot of good things in her future.

[Eira Seren]

You must stop your spoiling ways,Eira.How does this board game work anyway?Do you throw dice?Is it like snakes and ladders?

No news yet on the board game. We've convinced our Unsullied friend that we might be able to only talk about the show, but after walking around all day helping him look for apartments in the heat, nobody wanted to spend the evening playing games. No mead for me, either. We arrived in time for happy hour, demolished sandwiches and 4 pitchers of water while debating pros and cons in the air conditioning, and went home early.

Congrats in the job offer! :cheers:

Last week I took a mini road trip with my siblings-in-law (and without any kids), and they basically quizzed me for 3 hrs about the books. It was like an open invitation to analyze and theorize out loud; and for an ASOIAF nerd, it was uniquely satisfying. One of them had read all but the last half of ADWD, and the other had watched the show but hadn't even started the books - not too much concern for spoilers between them.

I can't imagine a bunch of us Heretics trying to play an actual board game together, though. That would be wild.

Thanks! Let's see, if we add about 4 hours for debating to the time of actual game play. . . I can picture it now, and it would be worth it at least once!

My family likes to ask me things about it, but they seem to want a quick explanation :laugh:

Viewed it [and note your follow-up comment] - saw it first time around of course - but in focus there are a couple of interesting bits.

I can remember speculation at the time that the face of the white walker was being reflected in the blade of Ice [the sword] but now we've been through the whole series I'd say you're right and its an out-take from the Nights King sequence.

All impressions are subjective but watching it again I was rather reminded of Apocalyse Now/Heart of Darkness, with Bloodraven substituting for Kurz and the cave being the "Heart of Darkness/Heart of Winter"

The other point and its one that comes straight out of the book is Jojen's warning about the danger of being drawn into the direwolf for good, which once again questions who really in charge in that partnership

Wow, Black Crow, that got dark fast! Who plays Dennis Hopper's role? Coldhands?

You know, I think the crows are essential to weirwoods, but they're an added layer. They go into the magic just like the Singers do.

[ACVG]

So a slightly different thought on this one, but building upon rather than contradicting Butcher's thoughts.

We have the white walkers, not a separate race or species but the Old Gods answer to the Bloody Mummers; janissaries or to follow Butcher's happy thought, the Unsullied. Children taken and turned into soldiers, but why...?

We're told they first appeared during the Long Night and that they administered a massive defeat to the First Men - and it was a defeat, everything north of the Wall was lost and everything between the Wall and the Neck pretty comprehensively depopulated. Sounds like a result to me. And then we've the evidence that they've been appearing from time to time ever since, but for what reason we don't know, yet anyway.

So why now?

There have been a couple of suggestions that it might be linked [1] to an absence of a Stark in Winterfell, or [2] Summerhall. The first I'd be inclined to dismiss. Yes Lord Rickard and his son Brandon were murdered by Aerys on the same day, but they were immediately succeeded by Lord Eddard, who in turn had Benjen deputising for him, so I don't see that one as a runner.

The problem with Summerhall is that while its mentioned significantly, demonstrating a link has been difficult, but there is in fact a possible connection.

Way back at the time when Heresy started off there was a joke that perhaps this isn't going to be a question of the Dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but rather the Others saving Westeros from the Dragons. Very funny says you, but consider this:

The Targaryens, or at least some of them, have been obsessed with the Prince that was Promised prophecy. We know very little about it, but given that exchange between Mel and Maester Aemon its not unreasonable to suppose that its a child of the Azor Ahai prophecy, identifying the hero in question as a Targaryen prince.

So far so good.

Now whatever the intentions of what went down at Summerhall, it had one very important result - it put Aerys II on the Iron Throne. Aerys, as we know, had a son, Rhaegar, who convinced himself that he was the Prince that was Promised and when he found that he didn't fit decided to make him instead - hence the excitement in some quarters over the R+L=J business. But as Maester Aemon pointed out the translation [from what?] was dodgy and decided that Danaerys is the one.

Objectively, you see, this has a lot going for it. Danaerys is the daughter of Aerys and brother of Rhaegar. This means that she is of the same generation; an obvious point I know but Rhaegar must have based his identification of himself as the Prince on something, perhaps counting the generations from Raella or whatever, but making the same mistake as Maester Aemon in looking for a boy, ie; if its not him and can't be weedy little Viserys, he must have done his sums wrong and its down to him to raise up the Prince in the next generation. In other words he reckoned without Danaerys and she, as we know, not only fits all the criteria but has the dragons to prove it.

Indeed the objection out there in the forum to identifying Danaerys as Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised is that she fits the criteria too well and is therefore far too obvious.

But if Westeros is to be saved from Azor Ahai, rather than saved by Azor Ahai... then its nowhere near so "obvious".

So lets look at the saving. Is the significant trigger for things starting to wake up north of the Wall and for Craster to begin giving up his sons not Summerhall or the death of Lord Rickard [and Brandon] but the birth of Danaerys/Azor Ahai on Dragonstone.

There are a couple of other wrinkles which occur to me on this, including the storm on the night of her birth [an attempt to kill her off there and then?] but I'll put this out now and see if it might have legs.

I'd love to see this thought expanded. I feel that if we could figure out the WW "trigger" for reappearing we could try to figure out their true motive.

Craster seems to be an old pro at sacrificing his sons and Mance was able to bind the wildlings together under the threat of the Others so their recent reappearance should be at least 10-15yrs before the GOT prologue.

In previous appearances the Others only occupied themselves with the North, so why would they care about Dany now?

The Targaryens had several dragons and the Others didn't make a peep about them.

Are the Others on an offensive or defensive strategy? Do they see Dany as a threat to their existence or do they see the coming of a long(er than usual) (with this last passing summer longer than recent memory for many of Westeros' senior citizens, comes a long winter) winter as their chance to claim some more territory?

[wolfmaid7]

I think that fits. We

.

know that Winterfell, and the Winter Town, gets crowded in winter - presumably because people gather from all around for protection and safety. Old Nan talks about kings freezing in their castles, but we know Winterfell itself was heated by circulating warm/hot water through the walls... so Winterfell would provide some assurance of strength and protection even in the coldest of conditions. Plus, we know from Bran's POV at the harvest feast that the bannermen did tithe a certain amount of their crop to their Lords...

.

Gives me the feeling that if WF had retained the knowledge they subdued the moment Gared showed up talking about seeing wws i would have been really? Time to stock boys.

5. In the Prologue, the Others are clearly taking inventory of Waymar's sword, which is castle-forged. Castle-forged steel is a lot lighter in color than a Valyrian blade. In the moonlight, his sword catches the light and the Other halts. The Other then decides this blade will not be a challenge. To me, it looks like they were momentarily concerned that Royce's blade was another sword "alive with light," "pale as milkglass."

I meant as an intentionally transformative adaptation to exploit the conditions, not some kind of natural selection. If the world was covered in ersatz winter, I'd find it extremely interesting if humans developed ice magic as a way of exploiting those conditions, as a response to the "winter" the comet brought forth.

In the east, it sounds like the way they respond to darkness is by fighting it with light. It would be interesting if the way humans responded to it in the west was to capitalize on it. It would place the emergence of ice magic as a means for humans' trying to survive an unintended consequence of the CotF's magic; that is, it would have begun as a way to cope with their surroundings. And it places the Others' emergence after the darkness began, not what caused it.

My own theory was that humans harnessed ice magic for political reasons-- whether it stemmed from the Stark's achieving eons of political dominance through magic, or several Houses wielding it to keep new invaders out (which would be a direct mirroring of how dragons were used in Valyria). But I think the comet proposal is interesting in looking at a different root cause of these magic's coming into being.

Well, my thoughts on the specifics of this is that we see a good deal of human transformation through magic-- Mel and Moqorro, Stannis' being drained due to the shadow assassins, Bloodraven into the tree, the pseudo-immortality of the Undying, etc. It looks like humans are able to extend their natural lifespans and transform their nature through magic.

In light of that, I think it makes sense to consider if the Others might have begun as grown men who unintentionally became transformed as a side effect of losing their soulds to magic, or even as an intentional pursuit of immortality (and since "ice preserves," their "Othery" lifespan may far exceed humans transformed via other magics). Like "Ice Priests" that mirror the Reds.

In the meantime, I lean toward the Others' "patient zero" being a man or group of men who harnessed the magic, and in exchange (or even intentionally) lost their humanity for a form of immortality.

I think magic is something atlease "worked magic" is something humans were already dabbling in, i think that link points to Essos.However i don't think they had the reverence for it when it comes to wisdom in its usage. It was not a means to an end it seems with them,just a wildly used means. I think and believe the grown men transformation as well,we only have to look at he ledgend of the Shrouded Lord/NK to see that it is possible atlease to me some men may have given their souls over to a manifestation of magic.I will draw again the parallel of the the goddess and the consort king.Kind of a "Great Rite'. In some traditions whomever the magic chose would take on the form of a woman to complete the "sacred marraige".

So i think there is a lot of transformation taking place and i bet it had to alot to do with something special in the bloodline period of people from Esoss. They have it in their blood and used that to do a lot of sorcery.I also find it highly unlikely that noone ventured over the land bridge exploring prior to the mass FM migration.

Considering how much of these threads are based off of Craster, I'm surprised to never see anybody quoting Ygritte when she tells Jon where he comes from. Craster was fathered by a man of the Night's Watch beyond the Wall during a ranging with a woman from Whitetree; Once she gave birth to Craster, she brought him to the Wall only to be chased back away by the Night's Watch. Ygritte finally concludes telling Jon that Crasters bears a heavy curse.

So we have Craster's mom coming from Whitetree, a place where the Old Gods still appear to have power with a huge Weirwood. And now Craster helping repopulate the Others who have been picking off Night's Watch men, the same order of men who cruelly chased off Craster's mom when she wanted help for her child. Another interesting aspect of this is the complete breaking of the "father no children" vow, and the subsequent consequences for the entire watch after it was broken

It maybe more than that, without knowing too much of the particulars i found it odd given how much the NW were in need of men that they would turn away "that" baby. They took Mance and raised him but rejected Craster just as they still rejected him.Mormont could have sent Rangers to collect the boys Craster put in the woods.Craster would not be any wiser. Instead Mormont opted to not too.So there maybe a memory that his line is of limits.Which would make Jon the first to keep one on the Wall.

Apologies if this has been hashed and rehashed here, and also for wandering off topic, but I've got greyscale on my mind while rereading ADWD.

The first thing I noticed was that there's a story about it that reminds me of the Night's King and White Lady story (bolding mine):

So again we have an Otherly lady as part of the origin story.

So as that's metaphorically rolling down the hill in my head, it picks up the similarity between greyscale and the appearance of wights (extremities turning black), and also Val's sudden vehemence about Shireen (calling her the "dead girl"). And then I wondered where Shireen got greyscale in the first place, and my first guess is Patchface as an asymptomatic carrier (of whom it is said "a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed")...which also sounds like the NK seed/soul tale.

So my theory is that greyscale may be a sort of slow-mo version of wighting. Poor Shireen, I just don't see a lot of good things in her future.

I brought this up about two threads ago the similarities between the two,in my sig you can goto my "cold theory link" on the last page i put the comparison.But i agree with this there is a very strong similarity there i think what accounts for the variance is the environment they are in. The stone men are in water,the northern wights are in ice and the Fire crew most likely are surrounded by fire.

[King of Winters]

Must there indeed be a Stark on the Wall just as there must be a Stark in Winterfell? Benjen Stark is gone so that means Jon Stark must take his place, and is this also why he was being groomed as Mormont's squire? The short answer to that one has to be yes, but is Benjen Stark's disappearance also linked insofar as with Jon, his successor, on the Wall was it time for Benjen to take that long walk North?

I think that there has to be so that they can both make sure that everyone in the North, and the original NW, maintained the Pact and not try and break the peace.

[Voice]

Just had a bit of a mad thought. In my limited understanding of human social evolution, we moved from a hunter-gatherer society to an agricultural one about 10,000 years ago (termed "the neolithic revolution") when earth entered an interglacial period and climate change created many arable landscapes.

I just wanted to point out that social evolution has been debunked within anthropology for nearly a century. It was little more than an attempt to academically validate racism, racial superiority, and governmental policies that would now be viewed as ethnic cleansing. People did not evolve into agricultural societies, rather, some societies simply chose to develop agriculture. And while any given society might develop such practices, others adjacent to them might still choose hunter-gatherer ecology. It was more a matter of personal choice and cultural preference than a matter of time or environment that led some societies to practice agriculture, as remains true today. We see many so-inclined individuals today choosing to grow their own vegetables and trade in farmers markets, and shed consumer ecology in the name of healthier food. It has always been that way, a matter of choice - not evolution. That is not to say that such choices do not effect biology, because they indeed do. But an agricultural society is not "more evolved" than a hunter-gatherer society. Both have simply adapted to extract calories from the environment by different, yet contemporary, means.

I just wanted to point that out, lest we repeat the mistakes of the 19th century :)

[Black Crow]

I'd love to see this thought expanded. I feel that if we could figure out the WW "trigger" for reappearing we could try to figure out their true motive.

Craster seems to be an old pro at sacrificing his sons and Mance was able to bind the wildlings together under the threat of the Others so their recent reappearance should be at least 10-15yrs before the GOT prologue.

In previous appearances the Others only occupied themselves with the North, so why would they care about Dany now?

The Targaryens had several dragons and the Others didn't make a peep about them.

Are the Others on an offensive or defensive strategy? Do they see Dany as a threat to their existence or do they see the coming of a long(er than usual) (with this last passing summer longer than recent memory for many of Westeros' senior citizens, comes a long winter) winter as their chance to claim some more territory?

I think its more about Ice and Fire than anything so mundane as territory, especially if Craster's sons are just jannissaries.

[Black Crow]

I think that there has to be so that they can both make sure that everyone in the North, and the original NW, maintained the Pact and not try and break the peace.

I'd say it was something like that and there's another thought that occurs to me; we've discussed before how the Nights King story may be a lot more recent than people think and that his overthrow was the price of peace with the Andals.

Now hold that thought and consider that the legend says nothing about the head of the Nights King decorating a spike, or his being burned alive, boiled in his own fat or whatever gruesome fate fits the bill. He was just... overthrown.

So what if he's still out there, not the original of course, not after all this time; but the Stark on the Wall who must one day go beyond it and not come back?

I'm still struck you see by that business of Maester Aemon, revealing himself to Jon as Aemon Targaryen and laying it on thick about how a man gives up his family when he joins the Watch, no matter what the cost - and then when the crisis comes he tells Jon that his family is everything after all: "You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

WHY must it be a son of Winterfell?

[Ygritte]

I'd say it was something like that and there's another thought that occurs to me; we've discussed before how the Nights King story may be a lot more recent than people think and that his overthrow was the price of peace with the Andals.

Now hold that thought and consider that the legend says nothing about the head of the Nights King decorating a spike, or his being burned alive, boiled in his own fat or whatever gruesome fate fits the bill. He was just... overthrown.

So what if he's still out there, not the original of course, not after all this time; but the Stark on the Wall who must one day go beyond it and not come back?

I'm still struck you see by that business of Maester Aemon, revealing himself to Jon as Aemon Targaryen and laying it on thick about how a man gives up his family when he joins the Watch, no matter what the cost - and then when the crisis comes he tells Jon that his family is everything after all: "You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

So maybe the Night's King needs a successor, just like a regular king, and it has to be a Stark for some reason?

Hmm. You'd think he might not need another one so soon after Benjen, but if Benjen failed somehow, or died trying to get there...

[alienarea]

I'd love to see this thought expanded. I feel that if we could figure out the WW "trigger" for reappearing we could try to figure out their true motive.

Craster seems to be an old pro at sacrificing his sons and Mance was able to bind the wildlings together under the threat of the Others so their recent reappearance should be at least 10-15yrs before the GOT prologue.

In previous appearances the Others only occupied themselves with the North, so why would they care about Dany now?

The Targaryens had several dragons and the Others didn't make a peep about them.

Are the Others on an offensive or defensive strategy? Do they see Dany as a threat to their existence or do they see the coming of a long(er than usual) (with this last passing summer longer than recent memory for many of Westeros' senior citizens, comes a long winter) winter as their chance to claim some more territory?

I'm afraid we can't answer this right now because IMHO it is like "do the White Walkers come when it is very cold or does it get very cold when they come" (paraphrased).

They were either triggered recently (but before the AGoT prologue) and bring winter or winter is coming and triggered them.

[Voice]

A thought to carry this one a little further. When the Wall is about to be attacked by Mance Rayder, Maester Aemon tells Jon he must take command because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

On one level this is a major tenet of heresy; that Jon is a son of Winterfell. not the Iron Throne, but is there something deeper here. A man leaves his family behind when he joins the Watch - as Maester Aemon Targaryen so clearly explains, yet all of a sudden it is important that Jon Snow, the bearer of an anonymous name is a son of Winterfell and as such must take command.

Must there indeed be a Stark on the Wall just as there must be a Stark in Winterfell? Benjen Stark is gone so that means Jon Stark must take his place, and is this also why he was being groomed as Mormont's squire? The short answer to that one has to be yes, but is Benjen Stark's disappearance also linked insofar as with Jon, his successor, on the Wall was it time for Benjen to take that long walk North?

Bit more of the quote, just because it is so awesome :)

“I am a maester chained and sworn. My order serves, Jon. We give counsel, not commands.”

“Someone must—”

“You. You must lead.”

“No.”

“Yes, Jon. It need not be for long. Only until such time as the garrison returns. Donal chose you, and Qhorin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward. You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one. The Wall is yours, Jon Snow.”

Jon's duty is listed among such prerequisites as Donal Noye chose you...Quorin Halfhand chose you... Lord Commander Mormont chose you... which is odd, if not a clue.

Benjen did not choose Jon, we remember. But the blood connection is obviously there. So we could add Your Stark blood chose you... to the list. A Targaryen is telling Jon his place, as one is telling Bran his, but I digress.

I wonder if something/someone in the North felt that two Starks on the Wall was simply too great a threat. Or, perhaps this supports the Benjen = CH theory. Maybe it was the plan to have three sons of Winterfell in the North. One on the Wall, one in the Weirwood, one providing passage between the two.