The Islamic State

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Fez,

Did you watch the two Vice News reports? I don't think the reports about ISIS are being exagerated.

Mormont,

Is there a lot of government sponsored harrassment of Muslims in Europe?

[Chiki]

It's a fucking disgrace.

I hope that the West FINALLY wakes up and sees the problem for what it really is. Enough of that submissive, apologetic bullshit I read and hear every day here in my country.

It's time to fight the root causes. I have enough of the "they [radical islamists and terrorists] are just an isolated very small minority" mantra. Seemingly their "isolated" status doesnt stop them from getting recruits, money, support for decades now, ISIS is just the logical culmination of that development.

At least in Europe and the US we must make evth possible to stop radical islam from getting further support. People wanna live in the West? Better accept the core values of your host country. No more excuses.

Only few days ago, some Salafists spread (again) their propaganda BS (decadent immoral Western Lifestyle) in the city centre of Augsburg, in the heartland of Bavaria. Asked me if I want to find "the truth" and leave my "meaningless life" behind.

What we wittness now LIFE in Iraq is just the effect, not the cause. Time to fight the cause.

The Quran calls for jihad when Muslims are attacked, so fighting the cause will just worsen the problem. Why do you think Muslims hate America so much?

[Arakan]

It's precisely this sort of approach that will ensure a fertile recruiting ground for ISIS and their like. Young Muslim men don't become radicalised because Western governments are too nice to them. They become radicalised because they feel unwanted, because they feel forced to choose between their religion and their home country, because of silly bombastic nonsense like this. Your approach would be cheered by the commanders of ISIS. They want exactly this reaction.

Sorry but this is just not the reality in Germany (I cannot speak for other countries). We had our fair share of cultural appeasment during the last two decades, even to the point were "honour murders" have been put under the carpet of simple "domestic violence". Due to our ignorance and neglect a parallel society has developed.

It is for sure not too much to demand a commitment to

1) equality of men and women

2) democracy and values developed during the Enlightment

3) accept the believe and morals of others without considering them as "dirty", "immoral" or "inferior"

It took us almost 400 years to fight back the power of the churches and to confine Christian belief systems to the very private domain.

I am for sure not a recruiter for ISIS just because I think it is worth to defend the accomplishment of the Enlightment and people like Voltaire or Kant.

What they believe and how they live in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia is none of my concerns but sure as hell it is one of my concerns when Salafists openly preach their dangerous (because subtle) ideology while I wanna eat my ice cream in the heart of Bavaria.

[Arakan]

The Quran calls for jihad when Muslims are attacked, so fighting the cause will just worsen the problem. Why do you think Muslims hate America so much?

I was speaking more about what we can do "at home", they can keep their lifestyle (the part non-conpatible to Western values) where it has its cultural home. As long as there are enough muslims who believe in the concepts of Dar-al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb and Kafir, things like ISIS will continuously repeat itself.

[The Fallen]

I agree with Mormont. If we value freedom of speech then why would we take it away from someone for simply espousing their beliefs? Why does a Muslim wearing traditional garb bother people? How is it dangerous?

The problem is so complex. For instance, I think that the Muslim communities in the west should speak up in defense of the western countries they're living in and let their brethren in their home countries know that their leaders are shifting the blame to the west in order to shift the focus from themselves. However, western policy towards the Middle East has been horrible and exploitative. We've supported dictators. We've switched between sides in the same country. And why should Muslims stick out their neck and place themselves and their families in danger by speaking out against jihadists?

There is a problem, but I don't think a Muslim woman wearing a hijab is the problem.

Personally, and I've felt this way for about a decade, I think that the Muslim world is going through their version of the Dark Ages. And it's going to take their version of a Martin Luther to start to make a change.

[Arakan]

I agree with Mormont. If we value freedom of speech then why would we take it away from someone for simply espousing their beliefs? Why does a Muslim wearing traditional garb bother people? How is it dangerous?

The problem is so complex. For instance, I think that the Muslim communities in the west should speak up in defense of the western countries they're living in and let their brethren in their home countries know that their leaders are shifting the blame to the west in order to shift the focus from themselves. However, western policy towards the Middle East has been horrible and exploitative. We've supported dictators. We've switched between sides in the same country. And why should Muslims stick out their neck and place themselves and their families in danger by speaking out against jihadists?

There is a problem, but I don't think a Muslim woman wearing a hijab is the problem.

Personally, and I've felt this way for about a decade, I think that the Muslim world is going through their version of the Dark Ages. And it's going to take their version of a Martin Luther to start to make a change.

I wasnt speaking about garment. I cannot give two shits about that.

I was talking EXPLICITLY of value systems (gay rights, women rights etc). If they are not-compatible to our values, development in the Enlightment, they have no place in Europe.

Only god knows how many "honour murders" happened in Berlin over the last decades. Only the past years we opened our eyes for that.

[Suttree]

I was talking EXPLICITLY of value systems (gay rights, women rights etc). If they are not-compatible to our values, development in the Enlightment, they have no place in Europe.

Value systems aside from free speech eh? Nice.

[Serious Callers Only]

Their freedom of belief is freedom for intolerance. It's a intrinsically militant sexist and xenophobe religion. It's that simple.

[mormont]

Mormont,

Is there a lot of government sponsored harrassment of Muslims in Europe?

That all depends on how you define your terms, or perceive certain policies. But this is a bit of a non-sequitur, because I didn't say there was.

Sorry but this is just not the reality in Germany

I will politely suggest that it is, in fact. You may not think it's the reality, but your perception is not the final arbiter of things.

Even the phrase 'cultural appeasement' is a characterisation of the situation that pits Muslims against the general German polity. That is, as I say, a view of the world that reinforces the primary factor that research shows radicalises young Muslims - forcing them to choose between their religious identity and their national identity. (As is the denial of the plain fact that radicalised Muslims are a very small minority.)

To put it very plainly: you want to force young Muslims to make a choice between two loyalties. So do ISIS and their like. You want the same thing as they do, and the result will be the same. If you genuinely want to avoid radicalisation, don't advocate the tactics of those that promote it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SCO,

Their freedom of belief is freedom for intolerance. It's that simple.

Intolerant speech is one thing. Intolerant behavior is something else entirely. Tolerating speech, I see as a positive good. Tolerating behavior is unacceptable.

[Serious Callers Only]

Well, meanwhile europe is exporting their home grown religious psychotics to less 'intolerant' areas like Syria.

And by the way your action vs speech dichotomy is kinda bullshit, just look at veils. Does anyone really think that that custom isn't sexism ingrained into the culture? The consent of the oppressed i would call it, i'm sure there is a feminist lingo term for this.

[Suttree]

I've always liked this post in response to a Bill Maher debate on whether Islam is uniquely violent.

Falsehood #2: "Islam is uniquely violent." Maher and every other person who believes this is true should probably take a history class and write a series of mea culpae on the blackboard. There is nothing more problematic about Islam as a religion more than any other when viewed in historical context. Even ignoring ancient times, the history of the Christian era alone should be enough to disabuse anyone of the notion that Islam is somehow more inherently violent than other religions.

Islam has a long and proud history going back well over a millennium. Islamic scholars have been responsible for countless advances in the sciences and in philosophy, including at a time when most of Christian Europe was busy burning as much of its intellectual heritage as it could. That the same Christian world that perpetrated the Crusades and the Wars of Reformation would dare imply that Islam is somehow intrinsically belligerent is ludicrous. It was Christians who fought the American Civil War, Christians who perpetrated many of the awful evils of World Wars I and II. It was a born-again Christian President who lied an entire country into an illegal and immoral war against a majority Muslim country that had done nothing to us.

Nor do non-Christians get off easy. The worst crimes against humanity in history were perpetrated by Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung, neither of them Christian or Muslim. Pol Pot deserves an honorable mention, as does Ataturk.

If there is anything uniquely problematic about Islam versus other cultures and religions, it somehow didn't seem to manifest until the last century when the Middle East suddenly became hot property for imperialistic, oil-centered conquests. Which in turn means that the problem isn't Islam. It's something else. Imperialism is, of course, the easy target. But we've already covered why that explanation is wholly inadequate.

So what is going on?

Well, it turns out that it's not that complicated. Maher and Greenwald are both right, and they're both wrong. Yes, the problem has much to do with oil, imperialism and oppression. But it's not quite as simple moral relativist academics might like it to be. And yes, the problem is religion--but not in the way that Maher thinks it is.

The problem, as it is everywhere, is fundamentalism. The problem that causes anti-choice terrorists to bomb abortion clinics, Timothy McVeigh to blow up a federal building or Eric Rudolph to bomb innocents at the Olympics, is the same problem that causes so many Muslims to become entrapped in terrorism and anti-progressive movements. It's a struggle against modernity and against progressivism that occurs :

1) whenever religion of any kind is allowed to be the sole driving force of organizational activity in resistance to oppression, and

2) when people are free enough to congregate and resist without being enslaved or mass murdered, but not free enough to hope for true social advancement.

This is true in many parts of conservative America, just as it is true in Sri Lanka where the Tamil Tigers emerged. It is also true in much of the oil-producing world, where vast oil wealth mingles with massive inequality and exploitation. The ease of financing a government with oil money tempts elites into creating an economy without a substantial middle-class tax base, and without a voice of the people in government. The people are free enough to be angry and act on that anger, but not free enough to succeed or create real change. This is when fundamentalist religion is most dangerous.

This is true everywhere, regardless of whether the people in question are Christian or Muslim.

[Serious Callers Only]

Goodness gracious causes of causes. And yet... i don't see Christian fundamentalists emigrating to Syria to behead little muslim girls in revenge. Or at least not yet, wouldn't want to underestimate religious psychosis. I wonder if you regressed further where would you end up. religious fundamentalism-> inequality -> oil -> western world. Ahhh, it's all our fault, of course.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SCO,

If a woman chooses to wear a veil I have no problem with that. I spoke too quickly in stating an absolute dichtomy between speech and behavior. I should have made clear that behavior that impacts others is what I find unaccpetable. If a group of European Muslims attempted to force all women in their community to wear the Hijab regardless of their personal beliefs I would hope we would all object.

[Serious Callers Only]

Who needs 'forcing' when 'persuasion' by group pressure is much more effective? Get them while they're young. It's exactly how religions grow until get 'fundamentalized', that is when they are powerful enough for the easy proselytizing solution, violence.

[phoenix_rising]

Goodness gracious causes of causes. And yet... i don't see Christian fundamentalists emigrating to Syria to behead little muslim girls in revenge. Or at least not yet, wouldn't want to underestimate religious psychosis. I wonder if you regressed further where would you end up. religious fundamentalism-> inequality -> oil -> western world. Ahhh, it's all our fault, of course.

Always a good point. Christians learned lessons during the crusades. Muslims seem to repeat same mistakes for a thousand years now. Christian violence doesn't ring like Muslim violence. Tolerance is not in the Quran .

[Suttree]

Always a good point. Christians learned lessons during the crusades. Muslims seem to repeat same mistakes for a thousand years now. Christian violence doesn't ring like Muslim violence. Tolerance is not in the Quran .

This is just a gross oversimplification concerning the nature of and enormous variety one finds in Islam. Not all that surprising given media representations but disappointing nonetheless.

It also totally ignores the numerous examples of recent Christian terrorism such as the Anti-balaka militias in the Central African Republic. Again fundamentalism is the issue here.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SCO,

How do you propose to correct for indoctrination at a young age, pray tell?

[The Fallen]

Yet the caliphates were both progressive and tolerant.

Did you read Suttree's post? It's pretty spot on.

By the way, how long has it taken for Europe to tolerate gays and minorities? And now that you have every other country should do the same? Countries and regions develop at their own pace. You don't like them then don't visit.

And here in NYC I see women dressed in burkas, others wearing only a head veil, and yet others dressed completely in western garb.

[Clueless Northman]

It's precisely this sort of approach that will ensure a fertile recruiting ground for ISIS and their like. Young Muslim men don't become radicalised because Western governments are too nice to them. They become radicalised because they feel unwanted, because they feel forced to choose between their religion and their home country, because of silly bombastic nonsense like this. Your approach would be cheered by the commanders of ISIS. They want exactly this reaction.

If you move to another country because you expect life to be better than in your shithole, you also have to discard a lot of your previous behaviour and ideas. If you're not ready to do this, just stay where you are and don't move.

Though my main hope is that, with the reports of thousands of foreigners having joined ISIS, Western governments will keep a close eye on people going to and cominb back from the Middle-East, and will act swiftly and with the full force of justice on every fucking scumbag who went to Somalia, Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq without a very good justification (as in "I work for Red Cross" / "I was the ambassador's driver").